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New here. And struggling with my long time Christian faith. Please advise.

The-Doctor

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God made man in his own image, it has different meanings depending on how you interpret the phrase.

IE God made man in His own image. so people might interpret that as God looking like man where as "God made man in His own image"

Could mean God looks nothing like man.  I have spoken to different people about what people think God looks like to them.  I always imagine Him to be like a wise relative sitting next to me listening as I pray and nodding His head in an understanding way.  Whilse a friend of mine says he thinks of God as a colourful mist. 

But whatever you think God definitely has a sense of humour



  

 
 
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Evening Mist

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I guess, my thinking is, if you start thinking of God as having male and female aspects, or whatever, you're starting to migrate into various dualisms. I tend to think the best thing is to try to get away from the idea of God being gendered.

ITA. If you try to limit God to a human symbol (such as being a particular gender) then you are comitting idolaltry.

Problem: Then it is just as bad to think of him as masculine. Or refer to him as masculine. Which we do ALL THE TIME. And the bible does it.

It is difficult to personalize God without assigning gender. When you consider a "feminine" God your ideas about God are radically different than when you consider him as male. So, wouldn't one solution be to alternate? To worship BOTH these aspects of God?
 
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seebs

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Originally posted by Evening Mist
ITA. If you try to limit God to a human symbol (such as being a particular gender) then you are comitting idolaltry.

Problem: Then it is just as bad to think of him as masculine. Or refer to him as masculine. Which we do ALL THE TIME. And the bible does it.

It is difficult to personalize God without assigning gender. When you consider a "feminine" God your ideas about God are radically different than when you consider him as male. So, wouldn't one solution be to alternate? To worship BOTH these aspects of God?

That would almost work, except that it tends to make people start thinking that these are two separate things, which is generally considered a serious theological error.

My inclination is to think of God as non-physical, and use "Him" only because "It" has even less correct connotations in English.

I agree that thinking of God as masculine is probably also an error. However, I think it's better to commit the minor error of having some incorrect connotations associated with your understanding of the one God, than to commit the greater error of starting to subdivide God and deal with the pieces separately.

This being Christianity, of course, this just makes the Trinity doctrine even more confusing. I have known people who interpret the Holy Spirit as feminine, Jesus as masculine, and God the Father as neutral. Various other forms are considered.

It's a tough issue, and frankly, I doubt God is going to condemn you for being unable to comprehend Him.
 
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seebs

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Originally posted by Evening Mist
How ever much you argue for it, male pronouns do not and will not cover both genders. "He" is not all inclusive. I'm sorry -- but it just isn't going to work for me.

I'm sorry -- I should take a break. I find myself feeling so angry, and I just don't know why.

They don't now, but English has been changing on and off for hundreds of years. The word "He" was chosen by people who used it generically; it is now probably not as good a translation.

English is crippled by the lack of a pronoun which clearly denotes neither specific gender, but refers to a "person".
 
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Mr.Cheese

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Language is working on resolving the pronoun problem. Language has limits, that doesn't mean God is limited to what we can describe him as. We have "he" and "she." Well, God is bigger than that. Plus, the ancient culture was ludicrously patristic.
I believe that eventually we will use They as a singular pronoun. I'm thinking about writing my research paper on gender and pronouns.

God says ask, seek, and knock. I think that's what you're doing.
 
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Bruno

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Even if God is a male, why do you think that would be so bad? Are you comparing Him to human males? If you are, then you have to realize that God is all good. That means, strip all the bad qualities you have ever known men to have and keep only the good ones. Most importantly, God LOVES His children. He doesn't love me more than you because I am a man and you are a woman. Do you love your daughters more than your sons, or do you love them equally? Do you not believe that Jesus is capable of giving at least as much love as you give your own children?
 
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Evening Mist

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Bruno -- I adore the men in my life. My father is wonderful and kind. My husband is brilliant and fair. And my two sons are -- just completely amazing! I am by no means a man hater. What I'm frustrated with is the general devaluing of traditional "feminine" ways. I mourn the loss of what women have had to offer over the centuries, but has remained unexpressed because we haven't had a voice -- even in Christianity.

I mourn the fact that qualities in God's nature that we would do well to emulate are obscured by the fact that we think of God as "Him." Imagine God as a feircely protective mother -- doesn't that add something to your perceptions of God?

I don't understand why it is acceptable to refer to God as "Him," and dangerous to the verge of pagnism to refer to God as "Her." Neither is a complete description, and yet one is fine while the other feels -- naughty somehow. Is there something more defective about femininity than masculinity? If I worship an all powerfull non-genered being who I call "Goddess," am I sinning?

Mr. Cheese -- I'd love to read your research paper!

Anyway, the gender issue is only a small part of my problem. I feel angry and cheated. I feel like my 25 years as a Christian has been based on misconceptions. It has been little more than a "lifestyle," and I'd dare say not a healthy one at that.

I'm ready to unload so much bull..... Oh sorry. Probably not allowed to curse here, huh? Anyhow, when I'm through with this process I won't know what to call myself anymore. Probably just a child of God who doesn't know very many answers.

I just don't know what to do with the anger and the sense of loss. And I don't know where to find fellowship. I can't talk to anyone in my life about these things. My husband becomes frightened and angry. My mother and my girlfriends thinks I'm going to hell now. My father just feels sorry and helpless!!

It would have been nice and easy to just stay the mousy little church going girl I used to be.

I can't tell you how much I appreciate the kindness and the support I am receiving here. You all are very patient and very, very, very supportive men. (Interesting that no women have responded though!) But I *do* value your advice and input.
 
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seebs

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I don't think there's a problem with calling God "Her". I think there can be a problem when we start distinguishing between "Him" and "Her" and acting like they're different people, or separating them out a lot.

I'm gonna recommend you a link:
http://blogs.salon.com/0001772/

Read that, and see if it doesn't help a bit. Just knowing that people like that are out there makes me a lot happier.

I know what you mean, though. I am often very bothered by the realization that, when I say I'm a Christian, I'm lumping myself in with people who go to church every Sunday like clockwork, look down on people who aren't there, then pad their resumes and steal office supplies. Not that I'm necessarily better... *sigh*. It's just so frustrating! I read the Gospels, and I think "I would follow a person like that beyond the ends of the earth", and then I find that most of the people "following" Him have all the compassion you'd expect from a wild ferret.

Anyway, here's the trick: You can run away from the faith, or you can stick around and try to fix it up. I would humbly ask that you stick around and try to fix it up; there are only a few people who seem to be able to see that anything is broken, and we need all the help we can get.
 
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Bruno

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Evening Mist said this in Post #30
I don't understand why it is acceptable to refer to God as "Him," and dangerous to the verge of pagnism to refer to God as "Her." Neither is a complete description, and yet one is fine while the other feels -- naughty somehow. Is there something more defective about femininity than masculinity? If I worship an all powerfull non-genered being who I call "Goddess," am I sinning?


The Bible calls God the Father and the Son. Jesus was clearly a male. Do you think it is worth going against the word of God? I believe that if anyone worships something that is clearly contradictory to the word of God shows that they don't trust His judgment. God created both man AND woman to complement each other, not to war against one another. He created us to be a unity. I believe that is something God Himself is - a unity, but to avoid confusion, He calls Himself a He. I think that is for the sake of men, since they would have a much harder time accepting God as a woman.


If you trust too much in humans you will be hurt and disappointed, if you trust in God completely, He will NEVER turn you down.
 
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Evening Mist

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"I think that is for the sake of men, since they would have a much harder time accepting God as a woman."

It is interesting to me that men (generally) have such a difficult time accepting the gentler and more feminizing aspects of the gospel. But you know, in my experience, God doesn't intentionally cater to our pride in ways that perpetuate it for centuries, and lead to all sorts of atrocities against women. Rather, God gently breaks our pride in a way that allows us to grow into more complete people. Sometimes this means following the lead of the most unlikely people.
 
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The-Doctor

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God may be perceived in different ways by different people as I ahve discovered but I guess Him could also be translated to Her but being refered to as "the Father" makes the whole thing masculine. But that said by my own argument She could also be called "The Mother"
 
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Evening Mist

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Well guys, you've been great. And I'm enjoying the boards -- mostly. Sort of paranoid that someone's going to suddenly jump out from behind a bush, point and me and shriek -- "But she is not a *real* Christian!" Eeeek!

I had a dear friend (not a Christian) recently suggest that I research other faiths. She said if I look hard enough, I could find something spiritually satisfying that is more "woman friendly." I did appreciate her concern and her support. But it was impossible to express to her how unhelpful her suggestion was. You see, the problem is, I BELIEVE in the faith that I already have! I can't just go pick out a faith the way I would a new outfit and decide to accept it because it fits well. At least, I can't. I've already held hands with my Savior, and who can walk away from that???

Anyway, the thing I must surrender to is this: The inevitability of the struggle itself. I'm not good at keeping my balance on uneven footing. This is not my comfort zone. But maybe that is okay. I'll keep my eyes up to the hills and keep on trudging away! If it isn't the right direction, then God help me.
 
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DaveKerwin

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Evening Mist,

I have read this entire thread, and all the words you had to say. I am glad I did not respond at first because I feel I would have said some things I regret. So if I say something that offends you, please forgive me and know that I am writing this because I care for you, my sister in Jesus.

You mentioned that the Bible says God is male, our Father. And that Jesus is male. Is this a false teaching? By no means! The Bible is the very word of God. If you question if Jesus was a physical man, or if God is our Father, then you gotta talk to God about it, he wrote it. Right? He calls himself our Father, we did not make that up. I am surprized to hear that the men in your life are wonderful. To be honest, I expeted some abuse story, that would have at least made sense. But it seems to me that you are in rebellion towards God with your views on gender. Let's face it, God made men and women VERY differently. With our different compositions come different roles. Adam needed a suitable partner, so God made woman, he made Eve. Think about what God has made woman for, and think about the attributes in the scriptures that God says women should have. Then consider where you line up with that, and where you do not. You gotta confess where you are not aligned with God's word, and turn from those ways.

You mentioned how some examples in scripture did not mention women, when describing our relationship with God. You are forgetting the most powerful example in the scriptures that describes how we interact with God. The Bible says that we are the bride of Christ. Remember that God made man and woman as sexual creatures. Sexuality is the most intimate thing that we can experience with another human, think about it. Now, God desires itimacy with us, right? In what way? He desires the same level of intimacy with us that we have with our spouse through sex. We are Jesus' bride. God wants intimacy with us like a woman has with her husband. Of course I am not saying God wants to... you know what I mean. So if I (a man) can be called the bride of Jesus, then it would only be fair for you to be called a son of God.

Another note on gender roles. I heard a quote that I cannot forget. It comments on the LOSS of the roles God set up for us, the absense of commnity in the home, and everything else, here it is: "We women have finally become the men we always wanted to marry." So the women who have tried so hard to do things not designed for them have only found that they just wanted a suitable husband. So this is a danger in losing sight of how God has made us different, and given us different roles.

I don't know where I am going with this all. But if nothing else, know that God loves you. Jesus died for you, and you are cared for by us, the body, as well. Seek Jesus.

Another verse, perhaps a little more appropriate. Titus 2:1-5
You must teach what is in accord with sound doctrine. Teach the older men to be temperate, worthy of respect, self-controlled, and sound in faith, in love and in endurance. Likewise, teach the older women to be reverent in the way they live, not to be slanderers or addicted to much wine, but to teach what is good. Then they can train the younger women to love their husbands and children, to be self-controlled and pure, to be busy at home, to be kind, and to be subject to their husbands, so that no one will malign the word of God.
 
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seebs

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Today at 12:54 PM Evening Mist said this in Post #38 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=646675#post646675)
I had a dear friend (not a Christian) recently suggest that I research other faiths. She said if I look hard enough, I could find something spiritually satisfying that is more "woman friendly." I did appreciate her concern and her support. But it was impossible to express to her how unhelpful her suggestion was. You see, the problem is, I BELIEVE in the faith that I already have! I can't just go pick out a faith the way I would a new outfit and decide to accept it because it fits well. At least, I can't. I've already held hands with my Savior, and who can walk away from that???

Yeah. I think she's thinking of beliefs as things you hold for the benefit package, not things you hold because *they're true*.
 
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