New Guy with BIG Questions

[Cooch]

I am convinced - by scripture and by personal experience - that overt divine intervention occurs, but that it is the exception, rather than the rule.

We can accept that God is both omnipotent and righteous, if we accept that he has CHOSEN to limit his authority in this place and time in order to give us free will. If we argue that everything that happens does so by God's explicit will, rather than by His permissive will, then we arrive at the belief that we can only sin if it is God's will for us to do so. IE, that sin is involuntary, and hence that God would be unjust to punish us for it.

I believe that it is more reasonable to argue that suffering and sin are partly a consequence of our choices and partly the consequence of living in a fallen world. God has CHOSEN to not interfere most of the time,so that we can have choice (and if I cannot choose to do evil, then I do not really have a choice) and experience the consequences of a world in rebellion against God.

This does not mean that God cannot act occasionally, both in mercy and to demonstrate that He does, indeed, exist. But such interventions should be seen as "signs and wonders", not the norm.

The sheer inevitability of suffering and death in this world convinces me that God is far more concerned with how we deal with it, than in delivering us from it. After all, health, wealth and prosperity are not things that we can take to heaven. Rather, they are things that we will find in heaven when we arrive. What we can take with us is character and faith, which are more easily tested and developed under trial.

In short, God takes the long view. He wants for us that which will be good for us when we arrive at heaven's gate, not what is good for us here on earth - although sometimes we get that too.

 

[Armistead14]

Trying to understand divine intervention is like trying to understand evil and suffering...Who or what is in control, if anything.

Often I hear Pastors explain divine intervention is like a father over his family. When I let my children grow and learn, make mistakes, ect...but if I see harm coming to them, I will intervene, because I love them. We are taught God does the same for us....but we know that's not true.

A woman may pray that when her children go out into the world they come home safe..So they do and she thanks God for protecting them. Another woman prays, her daughter gets hit and killed by a drunk....So why would God protect one, not the other if he's no respector of person? Many say God has his reasons, we just can't understand now, but when you think of the cruelty, a child raped, tortured and killed...makes no sense. How could thousands of children going through this each year be a part of any plan...certainly God could stop each one.

I've seen children killed and Pastors get up and explain God had a reason for their death, if so, were they only born to be a life lesson for someone else? Take the children of Job and all the servents, God allowed Satan to kill them all trying to prove Job's righteousness....Is that all they were born for? We could all accept Job's story if we all got Job's outcome, most do not.

The same debate often arises over God supplying all our needs...not wants, but as christians you wont starve, have shelter...the basic needs. We know this isn't true. I went to Africa on several mission trips years ago. For the most part the entire village converted to christianity, but many of them still starved to death, lacked shelter, clean water, medical...many died, all went without. This has happened to millions of believers over history. Even today in America christians go hungry without shelter, medical care, ect..and thousands die every year.

I can only see fate on this earth and the kindness of human intervention. Maybe that's how God works today, expecting the kindness of humans to intervene when possible. OTT, I don't think he involves himself. The sad thing is it seems most christians don't want to be one that lives a life of intervening for the good of others, they'll leave that to God, if it doesn't happen they blame the person.

 

[Grey Wanderer]

Trying to understand divine intervention is like trying to understand evil and suffering...Who or what is in control, if anything.

Often I hear Pastors explain divine intervention is like a father over his family. When I let my children grow and learn, make mistakes, ect...but if I see harm coming to them, I will intervene, because I love them. We are taught God does the same for us....but we know that's not true.

A woman may pray that when her children go out into the world they come home safe..So they do and she thanks God for protecting them. Another woman prays, her daughter gets hit and killed by a drunk....So why would God protect one, not the other if he's no respector of person? Many say God has his reasons, we just can't understand now, but when you think of the cruelty, a child raped, tortured and killed...makes no sense. How could thousands of children going through this each year be a part of any plan...certainly God could stop each one.

I've seen children killed and Pastors get up and explain God had a reason for their death, if so, were they only born to be a life lesson for someone else? Take the children of Job and all the servents, God allowed Satan to kill them all trying to prove Job's righteousness....Is that all they were born for? We could all accept Job's story if we all got Job's outcome, most do not.

The same debate often arises over God supplying all our needs...not wants, but as christians you wont starve, have shelter...the basic needs. We know this isn't true. I went to Africa on several mission trips years ago. For the most part the entire village converted to christianity, but many of them still starved to death, lacked shelter, clean water, medical...many died, all went without. This has happened to millions of believers over history. Even today in America christians go hungry without shelter, medical care, ect..and thousands die every year.

I can only see fate on this earth and the kindness of human intervention. Maybe that's how God works today, expecting the kindness of humans to intervene when possible. OTT, I don't think he involves himself. The sad thing is it seems most christians don't want to be one that lives a life of intervening for the good of others, they'll leave that to God, if it doesn't happen they blame the person.

Wow.

Thanks so much for this! It really helped my perspective.

So you were in Africa? Do you go overseas a lot to try to convert, or.......

 

[Grey Wanderer]

You really just helped further my mental construction and understanding on this just now. It built on itself..........it concludes to me that divine intervention can actually be somewhat a dangerous way of thinking. If you believe in divine intervention, it risks lessening the chance of YOU choosing to intervene because you assume God's taking care of it.

 

[visionary]

Sometimes, it is God laying it on the heart of someone to help. If that person throw it back at God like hot potatoe, how can His Will be done?

 

[Armistead14]

Wow.

Thanks so much for this! It really helped my perspective.

So you were in Africa? Do you go overseas a lot to try to convert, or.......

That was years ago..25 maybe. At that time I was a Youth Pastor with a Ind. Bap. Church, but these missions were part of an outreach from a local christian college. I went a few times a year for about 3 years, once to Borneo and Australia. I was having a lot of ..doctrinal issues with my church, so when I moved on that was the last of that.

Obvious they went to convert. It was rather strange for many of us. Not only to convert, but give help, but the more I went the more I saw their tribal customs fall apart. For the most part they all ran around naked, were polygamous, other strange customs. In the early stage you never saw things like jealously between men and women, lust, adultery, ect...the more they went from their customs to western culture serious issues arised. Often at worship you would walk in to a mostly naked crowed. Think about praying on your knees and looking up to naked butt in your face. Even though we were told this, the more fundy christians couldn't bare to see the nakedness, less they lust..

So they were clothed taught codes of sin, ect. Eventually the tribal elders dissoved marriages..all but their own that is....This caused many issues, what woman would get to be the wife. Before it was over it was a total failure. For the most part later the missions were removed or ran out by tribal leaders. It actually reminded me of early Americans coming in with their customs and values and converting tribes here.,,but no, we didn't use guns or swords.

Australia was fun, I spent a summer there, the Aborigines are amazing. They actually the longest detailed history in the world, about 50,000 years. It was a much better experience. We worked more with modern tribes, although we visited others living in the bush. The mission leaders there understood their culture, so much of "God" is tied to land, history is passed through story telling. Christ was basically introduced in simple terms, no one seeked to change the values or culture, the strongest I've ever seen. I would've liked to have spent more time in less modern places there.


Now, my views are much more complex for most denominations.

 

[Grey Wanderer]

Interesting.

Thank you.

I just really like input from someone who has actually been out and seen the world for what it is and witnessed the harsh realities. Rather than being busybody know-it-alls who think they have the tightest grip on Christian understanding but have never tested their way of thinking out in "the field" of the real world. They just drive their fifty thousand dollar suv's back to their houses where they remain heroes of righteousness in their own minds, yet never lift a finger to REALLY do anything for anyone. Except maybe some scripted advice and give the "we'll pray for you" bit. So like I said, it's good to hear advice from someone who can give it to it's fullest potential.

 

[Armistead14]

I understand where you're coming from. Sadly, many christians belong to the part of the conservative movement that think those without somehow deserve it, lazy or suffering from sin. That is seldom the case. Many fail to see the complex human issues that cause many social issues such as poverty.
I was stricken with a nerve disease years ago, certainly changed my life on every front. At first not as bad and I was a member of several support groups, helping others. Most get to where they can't work, lose insurance, go into utter poverty. For many the pain is so severe in the last stage they kill themselves. I've seen the aftermath of several suicides. We often go to churches for help, strange as it sounds we get the most help from liberal churches. We have a very liberal church in our area, even has a gay pastor, this grouped reached out with more help than all other combined. Also, the RCC seems to be fairly concerned about others, least they have a lot of support available. We have several nuns that go by and check on those in bad shape, take them food, just wonderful loving gals.

I think many churches have missed the calling to help the poor, sick, etc..rather seeking to push beliefs and doctrine.

That's why I think the doctrine of "divene intervention" is dangerous. Seems the majority of christians do as you say.."pray" and then leave it to God and go about their way with no concern for their fellow man. Certainly few do anything that would take them out of their comfort zone. Even in America now 1 in 6 children go to bed hungry....fairly sad.

 

[Grey Wanderer]

I understand where you're coming from. Sadly, many christians belong to the part of the conservative movement that think those without somehow deserve it, lazy or suffering from sin. That is seldom the case. Many fail to see the complex human issues that cause many social issues such as poverty.
I was stricken with a nerve disease years ago, certainly changed my life on every front. At first not as bad and I was a member of several support groups, helping others. Most get to where they can't work, lose insurance, go into utter poverty. For many the pain is so severe in the last stage they kill themselves. I've seen the aftermath of several suicides. We often go to churches for help, strange as it sounds we get the most help from liberal churches. We have a very liberal church in our area, even has a gay pastor, this grouped reached out with more help than all other combined. Also, the RCC seems to be fairly concerned about others, least they have a lot of support available. We have several nuns that go by and check on those in bad shape, take them food, just wonderful loving gals.

I think many churches have missed the calling to help the poor, sick, etc..rather seeking to push beliefs and doctrine.

That's why I think the doctrine of "divene intervention" is dangerous. Seems the majority of christians do as you say.."pray" and then leave it to God and go about their way with no concern for their fellow man. Certainly few do anything that would take them out of their comfort zone. Even in America now 1 in 6 children go to bed hungry....fairly sad.

You're doing it again. Wow, just a couple weeks in and I've met some unbelievable people on here. You definitely being one of them. Your views are really helping me with mine.

I had yet another epiphany from your words on how much stress churches put on preaching the word and it being everyone's obligation to spend all their free time yammering on about the good book because we're terrible, terrible people for REFUSING to save others because we hold all this precious information to ourselves and don't share it. Bottom line, people can read. People can pick up a bible, people can go to a library and people can get on the internet for all Christian knowledge. We're not the hindrance that stands in their way by any means. But what they need first is a normal life to be able to at least have a starting point of reasonable survival in their daily lives before we focus on making them our saved little students.

Actions > Words

That seemed like an aggressive reply but it was just out of the excitement of the "discovery" so to speak. Was my comprehension a little overboard or am I receiving all this correctly?

 

[plmarquette]

There is no free will. Everything that is was and will be is all authored by God. God is the all. All things came from him and to him all things go to him.

This shouldn't be disconcerting to free will as all things are made holy by this intervention. The intervention of everything including ourselves.

we choose to server or reject God, Elijiah and people of God on mountain which do you choose, God or Baal....

people and kings of israel, choose this day who you will serve....
Joshua and people, choose this day who you will serve...

God has a plan, yes.... God will reset the events, until what needs to take place, takes place, or he replaces a person who will not serve him with another who will, so the end result is the same...(Saul and David)

We are children, not puppets, if we do not have a free will, then neither did Jesus, which would make the cross unduplicatble, and meaningless