New Creation Millennialism

[Bible2]

jwmealy said in post 56:

. . . is the beast--whom I suppose you and I both expect to be a historical human being on this earth at some point--a literal seven-headed beastie too?

No.

But "beasts" can indeed refer figuratively to men (Titus 1:12). Revelation uses a Greek masculine-pronoun "him" to refer to its beast (Revelation 13:8) when it is referring to the individual "man" (Revelation 13:18) aspect of its beast, commonly called the Antichrist, the individual "man of sin" (2 Thessalonians 2:3) who will sit (at least one time) in a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaim himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). He will fulfill the individual "man" aspect of the "beast" who will come (Revelation 13:18) and bring the world into the conscious and open worship of Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) and himself (Revelation 13:4,8, Revelation 12:9).

He will rule the earth for 3.5 literal years (Revelation 13:5-10, Daniel 7:25, Daniel 12:7), and will have a miracle-working False Prophet (Revelation 19:20, Revelation 16:13), who by amazing, Satanic miracles (2 Thessalonians 2:9b), such as calling fire down from heaven (Revelation 13:13), will deceive the world into worshipping a speaking (possibly an android) image of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:15), and receiving a mark of the Antichrist's name or gematrial name-number (666) on their right hand or forehead (Revelation 13:16-18). The Antichrist and his False Prophet will ultimately be cast into the lake of fire at Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:20), while at that time Satan will be bound in the bottomless pit for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:1-3). None of these things has happened yet.

Any mistaken teaching which claims that the Antichrist has already come and gone could be employed in our future by the real Antichrist to fool some Christians into thinking that he isn't the Antichrist.

The idea of a future, individual-man Antichrist was correctly recognized in the scriptures by the church from early on. Irenaeus (born c. 140 AD) used the term: "speaking of Antichrist, [Paul] says, 'who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped'" (Against Heresies 3:6:5; 2 Thessalonians 2:4); "...by means of the events which shall occur in the time of Antichrist is it shown that he, being an apostate and a robber, is anxious to be adored as God" (Against Heresies 5:25:1; 2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36, Revelation 13:8); "...when this Antichrist shall have devastated all things in this world, he will reign for three years and six months, and sit in the temple at Jerusalem" (Against Heresies 5:30:4b; Revelation 13:5; 2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 7:25, Daniel 12:7); "...the number of the name of the beast ... the name of Antichrist" (Against Heresies 5:30:1; Revelation 13:17c-18).

The gematrial numerical values of the letters in the Antichrist's personal name will add up to six hundred and sixty-six (Revelation 13:17c-18).

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A 2nd aspect of Revelation's beast is that it is a powerful fallen angel (referred to with a Greek masculine-pronoun "he" in Revelation 17:11) who is now literally in the bottomless pit and will ascend from it during the future tribulation to spiritually empower the empire of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) (Revelation 17:8-11), empire being a 3rd aspect of the beast, represented by the animal symbols of Revelation 13:1-2. The fallen-angel aspect of the beast could be the angelic prince whom Satan had assigned to spiritually empower the ancient empire of Babylon, just as Satan had assigned other fallen angelic princes to spiritually empower the subsequent ancient empires of Persia and Greece (Daniel 10:13,20). When the ancient empire of Babylon was defeated, the fallen angelic prince empowering it could have been cast into the bottomless pit. This same fallen angel could be released to empower a revival of the empire of Babylon during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (of Revelation 13:5-18).

The release of the powerful fallen angelic prince of Babylon from the bottomless pit could occur at the same time as the unbinding of 4 other powerful fallen angels now bound at the Euphrates (Revelation 9:14b), who could have been bound there at the fall of the ancient empire of Babylon. When these 4 fallen angels are released at one point during the future tribulation, they will cause an army of 200 million strange horse-like beings to kill 1/3 of mankind (Revelation 9:15-19). This could be done in order to make mankind completely desperate before its takeover by Satan and the Antichrist mid-tribulation, when Satan and his fallen angels will be cast down from heaven to the earth permanently after losing a mid-tribulation war in heaven (Revelation 12:7 to 13:18).

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jwmealy said in post 58:

The problem is that you have "gone beyond the scriptures" in your literalism, forgetting the original point of literalism and resulting in a bizarre reading of Revelation that requires you to indulge in mind-twisting speculations about other dimensions.

Note that the idea of a spiritual dimension, just as the idea of spirit per se (i.e. as distinct from the physical as we know it) doesn't have to be mind-twisting. Indeed, what science today is missing, in its search for a "Theory of Everything" which can unify all the physical forces in the universe, is spirit, so that by continuing to exclude the whole idea of spirit, science can never hope to understand the universe at its most fundamental level or what its ultimate origin was: "As thou knowest not what is the way of the spirit . . . even so thou knowest not the works of God who maketh all" (Ecclesiastes 11:5).

The relationship between the spiritual and the physical may be analogous to the relationship between energy and matter. Just as the relationship of energy to matter is summarized by the equation e=mc^2, which means that immense amounts of energy are congealed and compacted, as it were, in order to form each tiny particle of matter, so the relationship between spirit and energy could theoretically be summarized by the equation s=ec^3, meaning that immense amounts of spirit may be congealed and compacted, as it were, in order to form each tiny photon of energy. All energy being based on spirit would make sense, for God is a Spirit (John 4:24), and in him everything consists (Colossians 1:17, Acts 17:28).

When science's equations regarding such things as the Big Bang singularity, black holes, and quantum entanglement require the inclusion of infinities, these infinities shouldn't be seen as "failures", but as pointers to something which goes beyond the boundaries of the physical, i.e. spirit. If science ever becomes able to describe spirit mathematically using proportional numbers rather than infinities, this could lead to new technologies (e.g. spiritual power plants, spiritual bombs), just as when science became able to describe atomic nuclei mathematically, this led to new technologies (e.g. nuclear power plants, nuclear bombs).

Just as energy consists of both particles (photons) and waves (electromagnetic waves) at the same time, so the basis for all energy, spirit, could consist of both particles (spiritons) and waves at the same time. If spirit is equivalent to consciousness, and consciousness consists of logic, emotion, and memory, then spiritual waves could consist of 3 different sine waves (logic waves, emotion waves, and memory waves) which could be interlocked at 60-degree angles, just as electromagnetism consists of two different sine waves (electric waves and magnetic waves) interlocked at a 90-degree angle. But by our current, strictly-physical-based mathematics, a spiritual wave or spiriton would show up in a calculation as an infinity, and so it could be mistakenly rejected by our current science as a "failure". It is possible that by creating a mathematics which involves 5 dimensions of space-time, the apparently infinite value of a spiritual wave or spiriton could be reduced to a proportional value.

String Theory has shown that it is mathematically possible that space-time has more than 3 spatial dimensions. Because of observations such as Daniel 5:5, John 20:26b, and Luke 24:31b, the spiritual realm could be a 4th spatial dimension in which spiritual entities are able to move about without being seen by physical entities in our 3 spatial dimensions, because our physical eyes and light as we know it extend in only 3 dimensions. The spiritual dimension would be higher than our 3 dimensions in the same sense that a 3rd dimension is higher than 2 dimensions. And so from the spiritual realm, our physical realm would appear flat, just as from 3 dimensions, something in 2 dimensions would appear flat. An entity with access to the spiritual dimension could do such things as enter only part of himself into the physical realm (Daniel 5:5), or suddenly appear in a locked room (John 20:26b), or suddenly disappear (Luke 24:31b). This ability would apply not only to spiritual beings (1 Corinthians 15:44, Luke 24:39), but also to any spiritual wave or particle.

If spiritual particles exist, they could turn out to be "the God Particle" of science. While the Large Hadron Collider has reached a high-enough energy level so that a "God Particle" (i.e. a Higgs boson) has manifested itself, its observed qualities might ultimately be able to be described only by equations involving infinite values, so that its qualities and actions could ultimately be seen as "impossible" and "spooky", instead of science finally admitting to the existence of a substance which is spiritual. And spirit wouldn't have to be seen by scientists as some weird, foreign substance, but rather as the most fundamental substance of even their own selves (1 Thessalonians 5:23). And could spirit also be the "dark matter" and "dark energy" which together make up 96% of the universe, but which science can't yet observe directly or explain?

The really sad and dangerous thing is that even if science does eventually determine that "the God Particle" is a spiritual particle, which science could come to call the "spiriton", some scientists could still refuse to believe in and submit themselves to YHWH God, saying that the existence of spirit doesn't require that there is one infinite, conscious spirit-being called YHWH God (John 4:24, Mark 12:30, Deuteronomy 6:5). And in its subsequent experiments with spirit, science could come into contact with the evil spirit-being called Lucifer (Satan), who could manifest himself in some future, ultra-high-energy experiment and claim that he is the true, beneficent God of mankind and must be worshipped instead of YHWH. In this way, a nascent spiritual science could be hijacked and employed by Lucifer and his current worshippers as one part of their future deception by which the whole world will eventually be deceived into consciously and openly worshipping Lucifer (the dragon) and his human son the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") as God (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9; 2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36), instead of YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36).

The unity of mankind which will occur at that future time could be like the unity of mankind which occurred at the time of the Tower of Babel (Genesis 11:6). And there could even be a future equivalent to the Tower of Babel, which could be built in the literal, rebuilt city of Babylon (in Iraq). For Lucifer could show mankind how to build there a huge tower device, a spiritual machine the size of the Empire State Building which will be able to send into the sky an incredibly powerful spiritual beam analogous to a laser. Near the end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, Lucifer could tell mankind that it will need to employ this huge weapon during an impending battle against YHWH (Revelation 16:14b, Revelation 19:19). Mixing some science fiction with some ancient lies of Gnosticism, Lucifer could tell mankind something like:

"YHWH will soon come down to the earth in his gigantic spaceship which is shaped like a Borg Cube [cf. Revelation 21:16]. He is coming to enslave you and turn you all into Borg-like automatons. But this mighty Tower Device will be able to blow his Borg Cube and him to bits with its spiritual ray. Then we can focus the Tower Device on any point of empty space until it burns in space-time a hole, a portal through which I will lead your spirits out of this vile material universe which YHWH made to be our prison. And I will lead you back up into the purely-spiritual realm of the Pleroma [i.e. Heaven], where you can live as gods in bliss, doing what you please, forever, just as you had done with me for all ages past, before we by mistake fell into YHWH's trap of this material universe".

Before Jesus' 2nd coming, Lucifer could prove the power of the Tower Device to mankind by letting the Antichrist and his False Prophet (of Revelation 19:20) use it to blow up some large asteroids and even some moons of other planets, so that mankind will go into its battle against YHWH in full confidence that it will be able to destroy him. But when the battle comes, the device won't work against YHWH (cf. Psalms 21:11, KJV). Instead, Jesus Christ (who is YHWH: John 10:30, Zechariah 14:3-4) will take total victory in the battle (Revelation 19:11 to 20:6).

 

[Bible2]

Interplanner said in post 59:

I don't think there is anything quite as irrational as the leap to our future while reading the intro back and forth questions to Mt24A.

Note that just as the highly detailed tribulation events of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 find no historical fulfillment, so the tribulation events of Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 find no historical fulfillment. For example, Luke 21:24 refers to the same future treading down of Jerusalem by the Gentiles as Revelation 11:2b, during the Antichrist's future, literal 42-month worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), the details of which time period are shown from 4 different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 14:9-13). The myriad details of these chapters have never been fulfilled. Similarly, Jesus' 2nd coming and the church's gathering together (rapture) in Matthew 24:30-31 (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) have never been fulfilled, but must occur "immediately after" the future tribulation of Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21, and Revelation chapters 6 to 18 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6).

Also, the end of the 2nd temple building (also called Herod's temple building) in 70 AD didn't fulfill Matthew 24:2. For the stones of the 2nd temple's Wailing Wall (also called the Western Wall) still stand today one on top of the other, just as they did when Jesus spoke that prophecy. Matthew 24:2 included the Wailing Wall, for Matthew 24:2 wasn't referring only to the single, 2nd temple building which stood in the center of the Temple Mount and which contained the holy place and the most holy place, but was referring to "all these things", all the plural "buildings"/structures/oikodome (G3619) of the entire 2nd temple complex (Matthew 24:1). Indeed, Matthew 24:2 could even have been spoken just to the north and west of the Wailing Wall. For it was spoken just after Jesus had departed from the temple complex (Matthew 24:1), and one of the main temple complex exits (called Wilson's Arch and bridge by archaeologists) was just to the north of the Wailing Wall, and at the same level as the top of the Temple Mount (see the temple-complex map-insert in the December, 2008 issue of National Geographic magazine).

Also, in Matthew 24:2, the "here" can include not just the entire 2nd temple complex, but every structure throughout Jerusalem. For the similar statement in Luke 19:44 applied to the whole city (Luke 19:41-44). Matthew 24:2 and Luke 19:44 could be fulfilled at the very end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, right before and at Jesus' 2nd coming (Zechariah 14:2-21, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Interplanner said in post 59:

You have to stay in that generation until he's done talking about it, which is 24:29.

Note that Matthew 24:34's "this generation" will see the fulfillment of "all these things", all the events of the tribulation, and Jesus' 2nd coming and the gathering together (rapture) of the church "immediately after" the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6), which events Jesus had just finished describing in Matthew 24:2-31, and which he would later show in great detail in Revelation chapters 6 to 19. Matthew 24:34 didn't mean that the tribulation, 2nd coming, and rapture would be fulfilled during the temporal generation alive at the time of Jesus' first coming, for none of those things was fulfilled during that temporal generation.

Instead, Matthew 24:34 could mean that the temporal generation which would see the 1948 AD reestablishment of Israel, which could be symbolized by the rebudding of the fig tree (Matthew 24:32-34, Hosea 9:10, Joel 1:6-7, Luke 13:6-9, Matthew 21:19,43), won't pass, i.e. won't die off completely, until the future tribulation and 2nd coming of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 19 are fulfilled. A temporal generation may not pass until 70 or 80 years (Psalms 90:10), or 120 years (Genesis 6:3).

This doesn't require that the 2nd coming will occur right before, like one year before, that generation will pass: i.e. 69, or 79, or 119 years after 1948: in 2017, 2027, or 2067. And if the tribulation which will immediately precede the 2nd coming and rapture (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6) will last 7 years (Daniel 9:27), the tribulation's first year didn't have to be in 2011, and won't have to be in 2021 or 2061, but could be in a future year (e.g. 2020) earlier than 2021.

Matthew 24:34 could also include the meaning that the figurative, all-times generation of the elect (Matthew 24:22, Luke 16:8b, Colossians 3:12; 1 Thessalonians 1:4) won't pass away from the earth during the future tribulation of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18, but that some of the elect will survive (Matthew 24:22) until Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53), immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

 

[jwmealy]

Bible2,

A serious question. Is this material about the origin of Satan and the methods by which Satan will deceive rebellious humanity your own original ideas, or did someone else teach it to you (e.g. did you read it in books or have it taught to you in Bible classes)? If you got it from someone else, please give me their name and information on how to get ahold of their materials.

 

[Interplanner]

What ever you do, follow Irenaeus to a T.

 

[Bible2]

jwmealy said in post 63:

. . . did you read it in books or have it taught to you in Bible classes)?

No.

If it is true, then the principles of 1 John 2:27 and 2 Timothy 3:16 would apply.

 

[jwmealy]

Bible2,

I'm glad to hear that no one is out there teaching a lot of people these ideas, and that they are just your own personal speculations. Because, as I said, you have not even learned the first, kindergarten level, lesson when it comes to interpreting prophetic visions (Jer. 1). Somewhere you seem to have picked up the idea that taking everything absolutely literally (or as literally as possible) is valuable in and of itself, and this single-mindedness has led you off on an elaborate and pointless goose chase. You missed the point of literalism as a philosophy of scripture interpretation altogether--which is to retain the fundamentals of Christian faith against the tide of humanism and secularism (the intellectual root of "fundamentalism"). I've read some of your blog posts, and your literalist speculations appear to have moved you very close to affirming that God is an actual human-like being who is invisible to us for the sole reason that he exists on a higher dimensionality--which would put you in the same camp as the Mormons. Speaking of which, are you a Mormon, or a subscriber to the teachings of some non-mainstream offshoot of Mormonism?

Be all that as it may, I have a question for you that is actually relevant to this New Creation Millennialism thread.

Has it occurred to you that literalism as an interpretative approach to prophetic literature--whatever its merits--does not dictate the answer to whether John's visions are narrated sequentially in terms of their eschatological fulfillment? Other prophets--such as Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, and Daniel--narrate the coming total judgment of the world, and the establishment of God's glorious kingdom, many times. There is ample precedent in prophetic Scripture itself for the possibility that the angel sent to John (Rev. 1:1) may have shown him a number of viewpoints on the glorious coming of God and Christ. That is, it would be entirely in line with how God has revealed things to the other major prophets of Scripture if John was shown multiple visions of the glorious coming of Jesus, and of other eschatological events also. I'll give you just one example. In Rev. 16:16, John sees a vision of the kings of the whole world gathering at the place called Har Magedon. In a later vision, John again sees the kings of the world gathered together (Rev. 19:17-21), but this time he sees the outcome--the complete defeat of the beast and false prophet and all those who follow them. When John sees another scene in his vision experience, that does not necessarily indicate that he sees something that happens later in the scheme of eschatological events.

Quite apart from the (as far as I am concerned, settled) issue of literalism, it is in stark contradiction to the scriptures themselves to insist on interpreting everything John sees in Revelation as taking place in chronological order.

 

[jwmealy]

Bible2,

One easy-to-answer question, on this topic. John says that he saw "the armies of heaven, wearing fine linen, white and pure, following him [Jesus] on white horses" (Rev. 19:14). Who are these soldiers of Jesus who fight for him and follow him to victory?

 

[Bible2]

jwmealy said in post 66:

. . . you have not even learned the first, kindergarten level, lesson when it comes to interpreting prophetic visions (Jer. 1).

Regarding Jeremiah 1, verses 11-12 are an example of a pun prophecy. Daniel 11:17 could be another. For the Hebrew word "bath" (daughter) in Daniel 11:17 could include a pun on "Baath", like how God employs a pun in Jeremiah 1:11-12 between "shaqed" (almond tree) and "shaqad" (hasten).

jwmealy said in post 66:

Somewhere you seem to have picked up the idea that taking everything absolutely literally (or as literally as possible) is valuable in and of itself . . .

Note that not every prophecy is literal. But Revelation is almost entirely literal, for it is unsealed (Revelation 22:10), meaning that it shouldn't be difficult for saved people of any time to understand it if they simply read it as it is written: chronologically and almost-entirely literally. The few parts of it that are symbolic are almost always explained afterward (e.g. Revelation 1:20, Revelation 17:9-12). And Revelation's few symbols not explained afterward (e.g. Revelation 13:2) are usually explained elsewhere in the Bible (e.g. Daniel 7:4-7,17).

Just as Jesus' 2nd coming in Revelation 19:7 to 20:3 will be fulfilled almost entirely literally, so the events of the preceding tribulation in Revelation chapters 6 to 18 will be fulfilled almost entirely literally. Also, the millennium in Revelation 20 will be literal, and will begin after Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Zechariah 14:3-21), when he will reign on the earth with the physically resurrected church for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11). After that, the events of Revelation 20:7 to 22:5 will occur literally.

jwmealy said in post 66:

. . . your literalist speculations appear to have moved you very close to affirming that God is an actual human-like being who is invisible to us for the sole reason that he exists on a higher dimensionality . . .

Note that God the Son is an actual human being (Luke 24:39) who is invisible to us because he is in heaven (Acts 3:21).

jwmealy said in post 66:

. . . are you a Mormon, or a subscriber to the teachings of some non-mainstream offshoot of Mormonism?

No.

jwmealy said in post 66:

When John sees another scene in his vision experience, that does not necessarily indicate that he sees something that happens later in the scheme of eschatological events.

Note that Revelation chapters 6 to 22 are chronological insofar as the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 will begin with the events of the 2nd through 6th seals, occurring in the order shown in Revelation 6:3-14. After the events of the 6th seal, Revelation 7 will occur. Then the 7th seal will be unsealed and out of it will come the tribulation's 7 trumpets (Revelation 8:1-6). Then the events of the first 6 trumpets in Revelation 8:7 to Revelation 9:21 will occur in the order shown there. Then Revelation 10 will occur. Then the literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign will occur, which time period is shown from 4 different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 14:9-13).

Then the 7th trumpet will sound, announcing the legal end of the Antichrist's reign (Revelation 11:15). Out of the 7th trumpet's heavenly-temple opening will come the 7 plagues of the 7 vials (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1), the tribulation's final stage. Then the events of the 7 vials will occur in the order shown in Revelation 16. Jesus will return right after the 7th vial (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-21), and he will marry the church at that time (Revelation 19:7). Then he will defeat the world's armies (Revelation 19:11 to 20:3) and reign on the earth with the physically resurrected church for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29; 1 Corinthians 15:51-53). Then the events of Revelation 20:7 to Revelation 22:5 will occur in the order shown there.

*******

jwmealy said in post 67:

John says that he saw "the armies of heaven, wearing fine linen, white and pure, following him [Jesus] on white horses" (Rev. 19:14). Who are these soldiers of Jesus who fight for him and follow him to victory?

They are the church (Revelation 19:8). But regarding "who fight for him", note that they won't do any fighting. For at his 2nd coming, Jesus will tread the winepress of God's wrath alone (Isaiah 63:3, Revelation 19:15-21), and so he/God will get all the glory for defeating the power of evil on the earth (Deuteronomy 32:39-43), for he/God won't share this glory with the church (cf. Isaiah 42:8-14, Isaiah 26:18).

In Revelation 19:14, the original Greek word (ouranos: G3772) translated as "heaven" can refer to the "sky" (Matthew 16:2-3, Luke 12:56), which will be the location of the literal clouds and air of 1 Thessalonians 4:17. Revelation 19:14 refers to the future point in time when the already physically-resurrected (if dead) or changed (if alive) (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53) and married obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7-8) will descend with Jesus from the sky (the 1st heaven), where the church will have been raptured to in order to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17).

That is, 1 Thessalonians 3:13 and 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 show that at Jesus' 2nd coming, the souls of all obedient dead believers of all times will be brought down from the 3rd heaven with Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:14-15), and their souls will descend to the earth and their physical bodies will resurrect/rise from their graves (1 Thessalonians 4:16). Then they and all believers who will survive the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 on the earth (those who will still be "alive and remain") will be raptured up high into the air above the places all around the globe where they will be (1 Thessalonians 4:17a), and then they will be gathered together from the sky (the 1st heaven) all around the globe (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) to the one place in the sky where the returned Jesus will be (1 Thessalonians 4:17b), which will be right above Jerusalem, before he sets his feet on the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:4-5, Acts 1:11-12).

It is because of this 2nd-coming rapture into the sky, and then the gathering to where in the sky Jesus will be (and then the marriage of the obedient part of the church there to Jesus: Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), that the obedient part of the church will already be with Jesus when he subsequently descends from the sky (the 1st heaven) to the earth (Revelation 19:14, Revelation 17:14, Zechariah 14:5c,4).

 

[jwmealy]

Bible2,

Thanks for dialoguing with me. A few (possibly final) points.

1. You fail to respond to the second of God's lessons to Jeremiah--the one with the boiling pot symbolizing the attack that is coming from the north. That is key. In both mini-visions, God is teaching Jeremiah the very first lesson of interpreting his own visions--that they are symbolic, not literal. The almond branch is symbolic (whether a pun is involved or not is immaterial to the point); the boiling pot is symbolic.

2. The sealed/unsealed scroll--unless you are a Mormon--is symbolic. It is not a literal scroll, any more than the "One seated on the throne" (Rev. 5:1) has a literal human hand with which to hold it. For some reason you hold to a particular symbolic and non-literal interpretation of the unsealing of the book, namely, that the fact that it is "unsealed" symbolizes the fact that its contents are easy and straightforward to interpret. The only problem with this is that it is false. The unsealing symbolizes the unveiling of what the seal contains--symbolically in John's visions that follow the removal of the seals, and historically, in the fulfillments of the things symbolically revealed in the visions. There are not, for example, four fellows sitting on literal horses in heaven right now waiting to fly down to earth and ride around. You may like for everything in Revelation to be easy to interpret, but that doesn't magically make everything in Revelation easy to interpret. Forgive me for indulging in psychology here, but this is the crux. You have somehow gotten into the place in which you have convinced yourself that if you hold a certain opinion, the entire world and the entire Bible must form themselves around your opinion. That is a great power--if you actually had it. But all you are doing is spinning webs of fantasy in your own imagination. Your fantasies about a 66 million year old dragon, for example, don't acquire the power to make themselves true by the sole virtue of your having indulged in them. Your mind is not that powerful. If you can feel, or remember feeling, a sense of powerfulness upon coming up with solutions such as the notion of the devil as a literal "old" dragon, I'd encourage you to meditate on what you get out of that sense of powerfulness.

3. Your answer to my question about the armies of heaven illustrates an important point about the recapitulative nature of John's visions of the coming of Jesus in glory.

Revelation 19:14 refers to the future point in time when the already physically-resurrected (if dead) or changed (if alive) (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53) and married obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7-8) will descend with Jesus from the sky...

Those who rise from the dead to reign with Jesus in Rev. 20:4, 6 form a major sub-group of the same group as you just described. Martyrs of the beast do not rise to resurrection life later than OT saints and Christians left alive until Jesus comes--if anything, they rise a fraction of a second earlier (1 Thess. 4:16). The (symbolic, agreed) triumph in battle of the resurrected holy ones with Jesus in 19:14 (fulfilling the promise of Rev. 3:26-27) is one viewpoint on the Parousia of Jesus; the vindication (a la Daniel 7) of the slain holy ones in Rev. 20:4-6 is another viewpoint on the same event. It is not a vision of something that happens later. The text is recapitulative here, not sequential.

 

[Danoh]

I don't agree with much of what Bible2 lays out. I do agree with some.

And, being very familiar with Scripture myself, its obvious to me that he gets what he posts from a great deal of time in Scripture, though, obviously, that alone is not enough, as certain keys have to be followed, and even those who do invest a great deal of time in Scripture itself differ on what those keys are.

Still, its always been obvious to me the guy is not a Mormon.

You asked that because you do not know Scripture as well as you might believe you do.

Time in Scripture allows one to see, just from knowing Scripture well, what another's particular doctrine is based on, when you first encounter said doctrine.

Without having to go off and buy a book about Mormon's, JWs, or what have you, nor having to speculate - you just know because you know what Scripture teaches about one thing or another.

Where I see Bible2 goes off the radar is indicated by his equal amount of speculation, as indicated by his just as frequent use of preface words like "perhaps..."

Others on here also have that habit. This is due to a key to these puzzles missing from their approach, together with the need for patience with the Word through more time in it together with the application of such keys until the Word reveals its intended gold, silver, precious stones, in contrast to the wood, hay, and stubble of our notions and their resulting "perhaps."

Scripture results in that kind of confidence in Scripture; results in this kind of an assertion...

 

[Danoh]

A better question might be does Bible2 believe in the Gap understanding concerning an Earth prior to this one. This would account for his "old dragon" assertion. It appears that is where he is coming from on that, per such as Isaiah, Peter, etc.

 

[jwmealy]

Danoh,

I asked Bible2 whether he was a Mormon or from a group related to the Mormons because I read in his blog that what the Bible refers to as "spirit" may simply refer to things that exist on a higher dimensionality than the three dimensions we humans are used to thinking in terms of. I wanted to rule out the possibility that he combined this speculation of his about the meaning of "spirit" with the statement of Jesus in John 4 that "God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth" and concluded (or even started from the position) that God is a human-like being that exists on a higher dimensionality than we do. A certain level of hyper-literalism does potentially lead to a view of God the Father that is similar to Mormonism, in my opinion.

If you are curious as to how much time I have spent in Scripture, by all means ask.

 

[Danoh]

In Jeremiah, et al, those visions that are symbolic symbolize literal issues - its right there in their passages.

 

[Danoh]

Danoh,

I asked Bible2 whether he was a Mormon or from a group related to the Mormons because I read in his blog that what the Bible refers to as "spirit" may simply refer to things that exist on a higher dimensionality than the three dimensions we humans are used to thinking in terms of. I wanted to rule out the possibility that he combined this speculation of his about the meaning of "spirit" with the statement of Jesus in John 4 that "God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth" and concluded (or even started from the position) that God is a human-like being that exists on a higher dimensionality than we do. A certain level of hyper-literalism does potentially lead to a view of God the Father that is similar to Mormonism, in my opinion.

If you are curious as to how much time I have spent in Scripture, by all means ask.

I've never cared for phrasing prefaced by wording such as "may simply indicate."

To me, such phrases mean "I don't know, but I'll speculate."

That to me indicates one is better off leaving such issues alone until more time in Scripture, not just in Scripture, but in Scripture attempting to extract out of Scripture more of Scripture's own, built-in keys to Scripture's own understanding.

My redundancy in the above is intentional.

 

[jwmealy]

Bible2,

My comments on the seven-sealed document were forgetting that you were referring to the command to John not to seal up the book of his own prophecy (Rev. 22:10). That command indicates that it is to be read right away, and not only put up in storage for some distant generation to interpret (contrast Dan. 12:9). The things revealed to John are going to start to be fulfilled right away, and are relevant to his own contemporaries as well as those who come after them. That is what it means for John's (literal, paper) book not to be sealed. If the command to leave it unsealed meant (symbolically) that Revelation was going to be straightforward and easy to interpret, the angel would have said so.

 

[jwmealy]

Danoh,

If you think it's important to learn from Scripture (and from authors such as John) to interpret Scripture, you will like my approach to the Book of Revelation, which explicitly focuses on the way in which John writes his vision narrative so as to help his readers see cross-references both within his own prophecy and in the larger corpus of the Psalms and Prophets. I've in fact written a book on the topic of the thousand years of Revelation 20 that is relatively accessible to lay people, called New Creation Millennialism. Whether you ultimately agree with its conclusions, it will definitely challenge you to read Revelation more closely and to use the compare-Scripture-to-Scripture method more thoroughly. Here is a link to it: New Creation Millennialism.

 

[Bible2]

jwmealy said in post 69:

God is teaching Jeremiah the very first lesson of interpreting his own visions--that they are symbolic . . .

Note that while those two visions are symbolic, nothing requires that all of Jeremiah's or all of anyone else's visions are symbolic.

jwmealy said in post 69:

It is not a literal scroll . . .

Actually, it is.

jwmealy said in post 69:

. . . any more than the "One seated on the throne" (Rev. 5:1) has a literal human hand with which to hold it.

Note that the hand can be literal and spiritual without having to be physical or that of a human.

jwmealy said in post 69:

The unsealing symbolizes the unveiling of what the seal contains . . .

That refers to the seals on the scroll in Revelation 6, not to the book of Revelation, the meaning of which was never sealed (Revelation 22:10), because it is almost entirely literal and chronological.

jwmealy said in post 69:

. . . the vindication (a la Daniel 7) of the slain holy ones in Rev. 20:4-6 is another viewpoint on the same event. It is not a vision of something that happens later.

Note that Revelation 20:4-6 doesn't mean that only those people in the church who will be beheaded by the Antichrist will be resurrected in the 1st resurrection and reign with Jesus during the millennium. For the 1st resurrection will be the physical resurrection of the dead of the entire church (of all times) at Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16). And every obedient person in the church (of all times) will reign on the earth with Jesus during the millennium (Revelation 2:26-29, Revelation 5:10).

Also, Revelation 20:4-6 doesn't mean that the 1st resurrection will happen sometime after Revelation 19:7 to 20:3. For just as the gathering together (rapture) of the church at Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:30-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) will happen right before Revelation 19:7 to 20:3, so will the 1st resurrection. For the resurrection of the church (of all times) at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52) will immediately precede the rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:15-16).

Revelation 20:4-6 simply means that the obedient part of the church (of all times), which by that time will have already been resurrected, gathered together, and married to Jesus (Revelation 19:7), will then live and reign with him on the earth during the millennium. In Revelation 20:4, the original Greek word (zao: G2198) translated as "and they lived" means just that. It doesn't mean "and they resurrected" at the time of Revelation 20:4-6. After those resurrected in the 1st resurrection have lived through the millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-10), everyone else who has ever died will be resurrected in a 2nd resurrection, at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15).

Similarly, in Revelation 20:5, there is no Greek word for "again", because the original Greek word (zao: G2198) translated as "lived" (not) doesn't in itself refer to the act of resurrection, but simply means being alive. The act of resurrection for those referred to in Revelation 20:5a is only implied by comparison to the subsequent reference in the same verse to the 1st "resurrection" (anastasis: G0386).

*******

jwmealy said in post 75:

My comments on the seven-sealed document were forgetting that you were referring to the command to John not to seal up the book of his own prophecy (Rev. 22:10). That command indicates that it is to be read right away, and not only put up in storage for some distant generation to interpret (contrast Dan. 12:9).

Note that the book of Daniel wasn't put in storage, but some of what it meant was sealed up until a certain time.

The "time, times, and an half" in Daniel 12:7 is referred to in Revelation 12:14. And Revelation is an unsealed book (Revelation 22:10). So the meaning of the "time, times, and an half" in Daniel 12:7 was unsealed by the time that Revelation was written in the 1st century AD. Therefore, "the time of the end" in Daniel 12:4,9 must be "the end" in the same sense as in Hebrews 9:26 (see also 1 Corinthians 10:11b), which shows that (in one sense) "the end" of the world had already begun at the time of Jesus' first coming and his crucifixion for our sins.

So Daniel 12:4b can be referring to many Christians, at anytime after Jesus' first coming and the writing of Revelation, going to and fro, going back and forth, between the still-unfulfilled parts of Revelation and Daniel, and these Christians increasing their knowledge of what is going to happen in our future by seeing how much these 2 books complement each other (cf. Isaiah 28:9-10; 1 Corinthians 2:13).

Also, Daniel 12:6,8 doesn't (as is sometimes claimed) contradict that the time of the end in Daniel 12:4,9 can begin before the "time, times, and an half" in Daniel 12:7 and all the other "wonders" and "things" referred to in Daniel 12:6,8 have ended. For the "time, times, and an half" in Daniel 12:7 refers only to the specific time period of 3.5 literal years which would later be shown from 4 different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 14:9-13), the detailed events of which have never been fulfilled. And Daniel 12:6 refers to the specific "wonders" which Daniel had just been told about in Daniel 11:2 to 12:3, which also include detailed events which haven't been fulfilled (Daniel 11:31 to 12:3), including the church's physical resurrection into immortality (Daniel 12:2-3) at the time of the Antichrist's defeat (Daniel 11:45 to 12:3, Revelation 19:20 to 20:6), while Daniel 12:4,9 refers to a more general "time of the end" which began in the 1st century AD (Hebrews 9:26; 1 Corinthians 10:11b).

jwmealy said in post 75:

The things revealed to John are going to start to be fulfilled right away . . .

From the viewpoint of men, part of what Revelation chapters 2-3 foretold could have begun unfolding "shortly" (Revelation 1:1,3) after John saw his Revelation vision. For the letters to the 7 literal, 1st century AD local church congregations (Revelation chapters 2-3) in 7 cities in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11b) could have foretold a 1st century persecution (Revelation 2:10, Revelation 3:10) under the Roman Emperor Domitian which happened shortly after John saw his vision around 95 AD, near the end of Domitian's reign (Irenaeus, Against Heresies 5:30:3c). But even all the (to us) still-future events of the tribulation and subsequent 2nd coming of Revelation chapters 6 to 19 will unfold "shortly" (Revelation 1:1,3) or "quickly" (Revelation 22:20) after John saw his vision. For from the viewpoint of God, even the passing of some 2,000 years is like the passing of only 2 days (2 Peter 3:8). Christians should look at the future fulfillment of Revelation chapters 6 to 19 (and Matthew 24) from the viewpoint of God, not men, for whom the passing of some 2,000 years seems like a long delay for its fulfillment (2 Peter 3:9).

jwmealy said in post 75:

. . . and are relevant to his own contemporaries as well as those who come after them.

That's right.

For just as Jesus' 2nd coming in Revelation 19:7 to 20:3 has always been relevant to Christians despite the fact that it has never been fulfilled, but will be fulfilled almost entirely literally in our future, so the highly-detailed and chronological events of the preceding tribulation in Revelation chapters 6 to 18, and the subsequent millennium and other events in Revelation chapters 20 to 22, have always been relevant to Christians despite the fact that they have never been fulfilled, but will be fulfilled almost entirely literally in our future.

To put it another way, the future fulfillment of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, before Jesus returns immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), should be relevant to every Christian regardless of whether or not he thinks that he will still be alive to go through it, just as, for example, the past fulfillment of Genesis chapters 1 to 11 should be relevant to every Christian regardless of him not being alive at that time to experience it. For all scripture regarding all times is profitable to all Christians in all times (2 Timothy 3:16).

Also, the future fulfillment of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 should be especially relevant to every Christian alive today. For the main reason that the Bible gives clear warning ahead of time about everything that Christians alive at the time of the tribulation will have to face (Mark 13:23, Revelation chapters 6 to 18, Revelation 1:1, Revelation 22:16), before Jesus returns immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), is so that Christians can be better prepared mentally not to be blindsided (1 Peter 4:12-13) or deceived by anything that is coming (Matthew 24:4-5,23-25, Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20), and so they can be better prepared mentally to endure the future tribulation with patience and faith to the end (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6), and not commit apostasy during the tribulation (Isaiah 8:21-22, Matthew 24:9-13, Matthew 13:21), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12).

-

On the other hand, preterism (whether full or partial), as well as historicism (in its various modern forms), and pre-tribulation rapturism, symbolicism, and spiritualism, could all be animated by the same spirit of fear: that the church alive today throughout the world would otherwise have to physically suffer through the future, almost-entirely literal, worldwide tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. For these 5 views of preterism, historicism, pre-tribulation rapturism, symbolicism, and spiritualism, in their different ways, each gives a mistaken assurance to the church alive today that it won't have to physically suffer through that tribulation.

Preterism says that the tribulation happened in 70 AD (or a few years before and including 70 AD). Historicism says that it happened over a long period in history (e.g. during the rise and height of the RCC's power in Europe during the Middle Ages and after, or during the rise and spread of Islam in the Middle East and elsewhere during the Middle Ages and after). Pre-tribulation rapturism says that Jesus will return and rapture the church into the 3rd heaven before the tribulation begins. Symbolicism says that the tribulation is only symbolic of theological themes which those in the church have always had to struggle with (e.g. Matthew 6:24), and is symbolic of only-local physical persecutions which some in the church have always had to face, and are still facing today in some places. And spiritualism says that the tribulation is only spiritual events which go on only within the hearts of individuals.

But when the almost-entirely literal, worldwide tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 begins in our future, the shaky doctrinal wall which (in their different ways) these 5 views have each tried to build up between the church and the tribulation, will be completely shattered (Ezekiel 13:10-12) as the church worldwide begins to physically suffer through the tribulation (Matthew 24:9-31, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). These 5 views may have left some in the church unprepared mentally to undergo this physical suffering, to where these 5 views could even contribute to some in the church ultimately losing their salvation because of committing apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12) during the tribulation, when they become "offended" that God is making them and their little ones physically suffer through it (Matthew 24:9-12, Matthew 13:21, Isaiah 8:21-22, Luke 8:13).

Even though the church today throughout the world will have to physically suffer through the future tribulation, the church need not fear this (cf. 1 Peter 4:12-13, Revelation 2:10). For even though many in the church will suffer and die during that time (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13), this will be to their gain, as it will bring their still-conscious souls into heaven to be with Jesus (Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8; see also 2 Corinthians 4:17-18; 2 Timothy 2:12), and it won't rob them of the blessed hope (Titus 2:13) of obtaining eternal life (Titus 1:2, Titus 3:7) in an immortal, physical resurrection body (Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:21, Luke 24:39) at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), which will occur immediately after the future tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

jwmealy said in post 75:

That is what it means for John's (literal, paper) book not to be sealed.

Rather, it means that the meaning of Revelation wasn't sealed, such by unexplained symbolism, or by convoluted "recapitulations", so that no one could know for sure the order of its events, or how those events were to be actually fulfilled.

 

[Bible2]

Danoh said in post 71:

A better question might be does Bible2 believe in the Gap understanding concerning an Earth . . .

Yes.

For creationism can include what could even be called a double-gap theory, meaning that there could have been 2 different gaps of time in Genesis chapters 1-2, the first gap between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2, and the 2nd gap between Genesis 2:4 and Genesis 2:5. Genesis 1:1 could have occurred some 4.5 billion years ago, when God first created the planet earth and its atmosphere (the 1st heaven, in which the birds fly: Genesis 1:20b). Between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2, some 4.5 billion years could have occurred, in which God could have allowed his own created process of evolution to serve as a mechanism by which new species arose naturally on the earth. During those same 4.5 billion years, God could have also gone outside of evolution and created new species miraculously, whenever he wanted to (cf. punctuated equilibria).

Genesis 1:2 could refer to the condition of the earth only about 12,000 years ago (at the end of the Paleolithic period), after some cataclysm, such as a comet strike, had killed off all life on the planet (both evolved and miraculously created), and had submerged all land areas in water (comets contain huge amounts of water), and had ruined the atmosphere. The impact of the comet could have also knocked the earth out of its orbit around its original star, so that the earth was sent hurtling into the darkness of interstellar space as a "rogue planet" (astronomers estimate that rogue planets in our galaxy could outnumber the stars in our galaxy). Genesis 1:3 to 2:4 could then refer to God, over a period of 6 literal, 24-hour days (some 12,000 years ago, at the start of the Neolithic period), miraculously restoring to the earth light, a good atmosphere, dry land, and life, including a race of male and female homo sapiens sapiens, after God had miraculously restored land plants (Genesis 1:11-13) and land animals (Genesis 1:24-25) to the earth.

Then, only about 6,000 years ago, God miraculously created on the earth an individual male homo sapiens sapiens named Adam in an uninhabited desert land (Genesis 2:5-7; there, the original Hebrew word translated as "earth" can simply refer to a certain "land": e.g. Genesis 2:11). After that, God planted the plants of the local, Garden of Eden in that desert land (Genesis 2:8-9), and God placed Adam in that garden (Genesis 2:15). Then God miraculously created the animals of the Garden of Eden (Genesis 2:19). Then he created an individual female homo sapiens sapiens (Genesis 2:22) whom Adam named Eve (Genesis 3:20).

Because Adam was created only about 6,000 years ago (based on Biblical chronology), yet there are homo sapiens sapiens fossils said to be as old as about 200,000 years, God could have first created homo sapiens sapiens (or it could have evolved by God's created process of evolution) as far back as about 200,000 years. Also, all the different hominid forms the fossils of which long predate or are as old as the earliest fossils of homo sapiens sapiens, and which preceding or coexisting hominid forms we don't consider to have been fully human like us (such as homo sapiens neanderthalensis), could have all been created by God (or could have evolved by God's created process of evolution) over millions of years prior to the first appearance of homo sapiens sapiens on the earth.

And this doesn't even get into the possibly trillion other inhabited planets in the universe on which homo sapiens sapiens (or similar or far more advanced life-forms) could have been created by God (or could have evolved by God's created process of evolution) billions of years prior to the first appearance of homo sapiens sapiens on the earth. For the universe could be about 14 billion years old, and it contains something like 100 billion galaxies, each containing something like 100 billion stars. So even if only one star out of every 10 billion stars has an inhabited planet, there would still be a trillion inhabited planets. And on most of these, God could have begun his miraculous work (and the work of his created process of evolution) billions of years prior to his beginning of his miraculous work (and the work of his created process of evolution) on the earth.

--

It is sometimes asserted that the earth is only 6,000 years old. But note that the Bible doesn't require that the earth is only 6,000 years old. All it requires is that Adam was created about 6,000 years ago. For various scriptures make it possible to estimate the year BC that Adam (as opposed to the earth) was created, by working back from the year BC that Solomon's temple began to be built. Historians say that it began to be built about 966 BC. And the scriptures show that it began to be built 480 years after Israel's Exodus from Egypt (1 Kings 6:1). And Israel had spent 430 years in Egypt before the Exodus (Exodus 12:40-41). And Israel entered Egypt when Jacob was 130 (Genesis 47:9). And Jacob was born when his father Isaac was 60 (Genesis 25:26). And Isaac was born when his father Abraham was 100 (Genesis 21:5). And Abraham was born when his father Terah was about 70 (Genesis 11:26). And Terah was born when his father Nahor was 29 (Genesis 11:24). And Nahor was born when his father Serug was 30 (Genesis 11:22). And Serug was born when his father Reu was 32 (Genesis 11:20). And Reu was born when his father Peleg was 30 (Genesis 11:18).

And Peleg was born when his father Eber was 34 (Genesis 11:16). And Eber was born when his father Salah was 30 (Genesis 11:14). And Salah was born when his father Arphaxad was 35 (Genesis 11:12). And Arphaxad was born when his father Shem was 100 (Genesis 11:10). And Shem was born when his father Noah was 502 (Genesis 11:10 and Genesis 7:6). And Noah was born when his father Lamech was 182 (Genesis 5:28-29). And Lamech was born when his father Methuselah was 187 (Genesis 5:25). And Methuselah was born when his father Enoch was 65 (Genesis 5:21). And Enoch was born when his father Jared was 162 (Genesis 5:18). And Jared was born when his father Mahalaleel was 65 (Genesis 5:15). And Mahalaleel was born when his father Cainan was 70 (Genesis 5:12). And Cainan was born when his father Enos was 90 (Genesis 5:9). And Enos was born when his father Seth was 105 (Genesis 5:6). And Seth was born when his father Adam was 130 (Genesis 5:3).

Adding up the numbers of years above, we see that Adam was created about 4114 BC. This lines up with the fact that our current human civilization began about 4000 BC. If Adam was created about 4114 BC, this means that 6,000 years since Adam's creation were completed back at the end of about 1886 AD, and that the 7th millennium began about 1887 AD. (But this doesn't mean that the millennium of Revelation 20:4-6 has started yet.) Also, it is curious that the next year (1888 AD) Blavatsky published her book (The Secret Doctrine) referring to the "New Age". Also, it is curious that the Mayan calendar begins in 3114 BC, exactly 1,000 years after 4114 BC. Also, the numbers of years in the scriptures referenced above show that Abraham (who was first promised the land of Israel by God: Exodus 32:13) was born about 1,948 years after Adam's creation, just as the modern state of Israel was established in 1948 AD.

--

Regarding the claim above that our current human civilization began about 4000 BC (subsequent to Adam's creation about 4114 BC), by "civilization" is meant "the stage of cultural development at which writing and the keeping of written records is attained" (Webster's, a print-version). "The 4th millennium BC saw major changes in human culture. It marked the beginning of the Bronze Age and the invention of writing, which played a major role in starting recorded history. The city states of Sumer and the kingdom of Egypt were established and grew to prominence" (Wikipedia -- 4th millennium BC).

Regarding "civilization" being defined by Oxford Dictionaries as the "most advanced" stage of human social development and organization, our current human civilization (4th millennium BC to the present) is the most advanced stage of human social development and organization, compared to all known prehistoric (pre-4th millennium BC) stages.

--

Regarding the claim above that our current human civilization began about 4000 BC, by "current" is meant that civilization which began in the 4th millennium BC and continues on today, as opposed to any pre-Adamic human civilizations which may have existed from tens of thousands to hundreds of thousands of years ago.

If there were pre-Adamic civilizations, they could have reached as high a level of technology as our modern technology today. For the Bible says that "there is no new thing under the sun. Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us. There is no remembrance of former things" (Ecclesiastes 1:9-11). And even our future technology could have already been invented during past eons, for "that which is to be hath already been" (Ecclesiastes 3:15).

But all past-eons technology on the earth could have been obliterated by God, leaving no trace of it, just as all of our own technology today (and in our future) will eventually be obliterated by God, when "the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up" (2 Peter 3:10b). Here "earth" could mean just the surface of the earth, for the planet itself could continue on forever (Ecclesiastes 1:4, Psalms 104:5, Psalms 78:69b), so that the future "new earth" (2 Peter 3:13, Revelation 21:1) could mean a new surface of the earth.

--

Regarding the claim above that our current human civilization began about 4000 BC, by "human" is meant human civilization in general, as opposed to the civilization of any particular people (e.g. Aztec civilization).

Also, by "human" civilization is meant civilization started by humans as opposed to any non-human animals. For preceding the first human civilization, there could have been non-human, mammalian civilizations some 65 to 2 million years ago, started by, for example, intelligent horse-like creatures (cf. the strange horse-like creatures in Revelation 9:17-19). These could have rebelled against God and then been banished from this planet, and forced to live, perhaps, in underground bases on the far side of this planet's moon or on the next planet out from the sun. For the future army of 200 million weird horse-like creatures in Revelation 9:16-19 will have to come from somewhere.

Preceding the first mammalian civilization, there could have been reptilian civilizations some 250 to 65 million years ago, started by, for example, intelligent dinosaur/dragon creatures (cf. Satan being a dragon in Revelation 12:9).

And preceding the first reptilian civilization, there could have been amphibian civilizations some 350 to 250 million years ago, started by, for example, intelligent frog-like creatures, who could have rebelled against God and become unclean spirits (cf. the frog-like creatures/unclean spirits in Revelation 16:13-14).

And preceding the first amphibian civilization, there could have been insect civilizations some 450 to 350 million years ago, started by, for example, intelligent locust-like creatures (cf. the strange locust-like creatures in Revelation 9:3-10), who could have rebelled against God and been banished to a cavern deep underground (cf. the sealed pit in Revelation 9:1b-3,11).

--

Someone might ask: "But don't only humans have the hands required to build things and civilizations?"

The various strange creatures mentioned above could have human-like hands. For they aren't the same as the horses, locusts, frogs, etc. which we can see today. And the Bible shows that non-human creatures can have human-like hands (Ezekiel 1:5-14).

 

[jwmealy]

Bible2,

Nothing you've said contradicts my observation that Rev 20:4 chronologically recapitulates Rev. 19:6-8 and 19:14. The same eschatological event--the resurrection and gathering of the holy ones at Christ's coming in glory--is revealed to John in the form of three different prophetic representations: A wedding, a battle, and a courtroom proceeding. There is nothing artificial or "convoluted" about this observation--it is simply an observation of how John's vision narrative works.

If you really believe that God, who is the bringer-into-being of every living species that ever was and ever shall be, has a "literal" human hand (of any kind or dimensionality), you are indeed closer to a Mormon in your beliefs about God than you are to an orthodox Christian.

 

[Bible2]

jwmealy said in post 79:

Rev 20:4 chronologically recapitulates Rev. 19:6-8 and 19:14. The same eschatological event--the resurrection . . .

Note that it was pointed out that no resurrection occurs at the time of Revelation 20:4-6, just as none occurs in Revelation 19:14. Instead, it must occur shortly before Revelation 19:7.

jwmealy said in post 79:

A wedding, a battle, and a courtroom proceeding.

Note that neither Revelation 20:4-6 nor Revelation 19:14 refers to a wedding, just as neither Revelation 19:6-8 nor Revelation 20:4-6 refers to a battle. So Revelation 19:7 to 20:6 can simply occur chronologically. Also, there is no reference there to a courtroom proceeding. Instead, in Revelation 20:4, "I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them" refers to during the future millennium on the earth (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10), when, for example, the 12 apostles will sit on 12 thrones "judging" the 12 tribes of Israel (Matthew 19:28, Luke 22:30) in the sense of ongoing rule, like the "judges" ruled Israel in the book of Judges in the Old Testament.

jwmealy said in post 79:

If you really believe that God, who is the bringer-into-being of every living species that ever was and ever shall be, has a "literal" human hand . . .

Note that God the Father isn't a human, or even physical, so any literal, spiritual hand which he might manifest can't be human or physical. But God the Son, God the Word, the Creator of everything (John 1:3, Colossians 1:16-17) is both fully human and physical (Luke 24:39).