New Creation Millennialism

[jwmealy]

Literalism in Revelation Question 2
On Rev. 1:4

Do you take "the seven spirits" literally--i.e. do you understand that John is referring to seven actual and distinct spirits of God?

 

[jwmealy]

Literalism in Revelation Question 3
On Rev. 1:8

Do you take "alpha and omega" literally--i.e. do you believe Jesus is saying that he is the first letter of the Greek alphabet, and also the last letter of the Greek alphabet?

 

[Old Timer]

Literalism in Revelation Question 3
On Rev. 1:8

Do you take "alpha and omega" literally--i.e. do you believe Jesus is saying that he is the first letter of the Greek alphabet, and also the last letter of the Greek alphabet?

No of course not, but are you suggesting that you can't see how He literally IS the FIRST and the LAST?

He's the Lamb of God.. does that mean He's an animal? Come on folks.. it doesn't mean that He is literally a lamb but He is absolutely and literally The LAMB of GOD who taketh away the sin of the world..

I don't get how this is difficult for some to understand.. my Lord isn't a loaf of bread but He certainly is the BREAD OF LIFE which sustains me..

 

[jwmealy]

Literalism in Revelation Question 4
On Rev. 1:13

Do you think John literally saw the resurrected Jesus, in the sense that Jesus was literally and tangibly standing there in front of him? If so, I have some further questions.

1. How do you reconcile that with John's statement in Rev. 1:1, which seems to say that John's visions were given to him by an angel, on the delegated authority of Jesus?

2. Also, how do you reconcile it with the fact that twice, around the end of his visions, John is told that the person whom he seems to think is Jesus, is really an angel who has been sent to John to give him this prophecy (Rev. 19:9-10; 22:8-9)?

3. Why is it important that John "actually" saw Jesus with his physical eyes in the normal way, rather than having a vision of him that was facilitated by an angel?

 

[jwmealy]

Literalism in Revelation Question 5
On Rev. 1:14

Does Jesus literally have snow-white hair?

 

[Old Timer]

Question 6

Is Israel really Israel?

 

[Old Timer]

Isn't that what this is about?

 

[jwmealy]

Literalism in Revelation Question 6
On Rev. 1:14

Does Jesus literally have fire-red eyes? Or, does Jesus literally get fire-red eyes when he is angry, but only then?

 

[jwmealy]

Isn't that what this is about?

No, different thread. I'm dialoguing with Bible2, who has said that nearly everything in Revelation is intended to be taken literally. I'm going through and seeing what he thinks of a number of things John sees.

 

[jwmealy]

Literalism in Revelation Question 7
On Rev. 1:15

Are Jesus' feet literally like burnished and red-hot bronze?

 

[jwmealy]

Literalism in Revelation Question 8
On Rev. 1:17

Is Jesus a sword-swallower? I.e. are we intended to take the sword that John saw coming out of Jesus' mouth as a literal sword?

 

[jwmealy]

Literalism in Revelation Question 9
On Rev. 1:18

Does Jesus have a literal set of keys to Death and Hades? Similarly, are Death and Hades ordinary, tangible, physical places that have doors that have ordinary, tangible, physical locks?

 

[Old Timer]

I almost cringe anticipating the pages of responses you're going to get from Bible2.. but if that's what you're after here.. then let the pages roll..................................................

 

[jwmealy]

Bible2,

It will make things simpler if you only comment in detail on one of these literalism in Revelation questions if you think the item is supposed to be understood literally. If you think it is supposed to be understood symbolically, you can just say so. You needn't explain what you think it means by reference to other scriptures and so on. We're already on the same page, in that case.

 

[Bible2]

jwmealy said in post 39:

You will not go anywhere in the universe--or elsewhere--and find ordinary, tangible, physical golden lampstands and bowls which are the ones that that John saw. He understood himself to be seeing something symbolic, not real . . .

Note that the lampstands and bowls can be both literal and at the same time be symbolic of something else, just as, for example, the fruitless fig tree which Jesus cursed was a literal tree which at the same time symbolized fruitless, unbelieving, Old Covenant Israel (Matthew 21:19,43).

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jwmealy said in post 40:

Do you believe that John actually saw what he describes in his visions?

Yes, or he may have sometimes just heard a verbal description given to him by the angel (e.g. Revelation 11:1b-10).

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jwmealy said in post 41:

Do you take "the seven spirits" literally . . .

Yes, for just as the one God is at the same time 3 Persons (Matthew 28:19), so the one Holy Spirit of God could at the same time be 7 Spirits of God (Revelation 1:4, Revelation 3:1, Revelation 4:5, Revelation 5:6). These could be the Spirit of the Lord, the Spirit of wisdom, the Spirit of understanding, the Spirit of counsel, the Spirit of might, the Spirit of knowledge, and the Spirit of the fear of the Lord (Isaiah 11:2).

Someone might ask, "So there are 7 Holy Spirits?". The answer would be no, just as there aren't 3 Gods. Instead, just as the 3 Persons of the Trinity are one God, so the 7 Spirits of God could be the one Holy Spirit. Just as the Father is the one God (Ephesians 4:6), and the Son is the one God (Hebrews 1:8), and the Holy Spirit is the one God (Acts 5:3-4), so the Spirit of the Lord (Isaiah 11:2) would be the one Holy Spirit (2 Corinthians 3:17), and the Spirit of wisdom (Isaiah 11:2) would be the one Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:8), and the Spirit of understanding (Isaiah 11:2) would be the one Holy Spirit (Exodus 31:3), and the Spirit of counsel (Isaiah 11:2) would be the one Holy Spirit (Isaiah 30:1), and the Spirit of might (Isaiah 11:2) would be the one Holy Spirit (Ephesians 3:16), and the Spirit of knowledge (Isaiah 11:2) would be the one Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:8), and the Spirit of the fear of the Lord (Isaiah 11:2) would be the one Holy Spirit (Acts 9:31).

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jwmealy said in post 42:

Do you take "alpha and omega" literally . . .

Yes and no.

Yes when those letters are employed to express the ideas of the Word of God, which Jesus is (John 1:1,14).

No in the sense that the letters just in themselves aren't Jesus.

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jwmealy said in post 44:

Do you think John literally saw the resurrected Jesus, in the sense that Jesus was literally and tangibly standing there in front of him?

Yes.

jwmealy said in post 44:

How do you reconcile that with John's statement in Rev. 1:1, which seems to say that John's visions were given to him by an angel, on the delegated authority of Jesus?

That could refer to the visions of the future.

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jwmealy said in post 45:

Does Jesus literally have snow-white hair?

Yes.

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jwmealy said in post 48:

Does Jesus literally have fire-red eyes?

Note that not all flames are red. And John could simply have been employing the idea of the dazzling brightness of fire.

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jwmealy said in post 50:

Are Jesus' feet literally like burnished and red-hot bronze?

Again, note that no "red" is required. And the idea of a literal brightness can be intended (cf. Matthew 17:2).

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jwmealy said in post 51:

Is Jesus a sword-swallower?

Note that the "sword" in Revelation 1:16 and Revelation 19:15,21 can be a literal, spiritual sword, like the one in Genesis 3:24. And at the same time, it can also be symbolic of the Word of God (Ephesians 6:17), just as, for example, (again) the fruitless fig tree which Jesus cursed was a literal tree, which at the same time symbolized fruitless, unbelieving, Old Covenant Israel (Matthew 21:19,43).

Also, the sword is not swallowed down Jesus' throat, but emanating outward from his mouth.

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jwmealy said in post 52:

Does Jesus have a literal set of keys to Death and Hades?

Yes.

jwmealy said in post 52:

Similarly, are Death and Hades ordinary, tangible, physical places that have doors that have ordinary, tangible, physical locks?

Note that all those things can be literal in the spiritual dimension.

Compare how in Job 33:22, the original Hebrew word (shachath: H7845) translated as "the grave" can be translated as "the pit" (Job 33:28,30), meaning the extremely deep pit which is in hell/sheol (Isaiah 14:15, Psalms 30:3, Job 11:8), in the sides of which pit are the graves of the conscious souls of the unsaved dead (Isaiah 14:15,9,10, Ezekiel 32:21-23), who experience pain there (Psalms 116:3). This pit is in the "nether" (the lowermost, Hebrew: tachtiy: H8482) parts of the earth (Ezekiel 32:18-32, Psalms 63:9), and so it could reach down to the center of the earth (in the spiritual dimension). And it could continue past the center of the earth and continue on in a straight line up the other side of the earth almost to the surface, so that the pit is "bottomless" in that its lowest point is empty space at the center of the earth (in the spiritual dimension). Satan/Lucifer will be cast into this literal "bottomless pit" by an angel at Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:3, Isaiah 14:15,12).

The bottomless pit may have a physical manifestation as a deep underground cavern. The top of this cavern could be deep under the city of Abadan (in Iran), just as the bottomless pit is under the angel Abaddon (Revelation 9:11). At one point during the first half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, strange locust-like beings will swarm up from the bottomless pit to torment mankind with excruciating stings for 5 months (Revelation 9:2-10).

 

[jwmealy]

Bible2,

Looks like you really are a full-on literalist. You get high points for trying to be consistent. So to you, Jesus is this white-haired man with fire-colored eyes (whatever color that is) and intensely shiny feet and face, who has a set of keys to caves in Iran and elsewhere dangling from his golden belt, who walks around in some kind of "spiritual dimension" among lamps and bowls of incense and altars of sacrifice and incense and whatnot in that other dimension, and has this amazing martial arts skill of fighting with a sword held in his mouth.

In this other dimension that you speculate to exist, is the devil a literal seven-headed red dragon, and is the beast--whom I suppose you and I both expect to be a historical human being on this earth at some point--a literal seven-headed beastie too? Or are these two things that John saw in his visions an exception to the usual pattern in Revelation that everything is literal and tangible (at least in some other "dimension")?

 

[jwmealy]

Bible2,

It seems to me that you have failed to appreciate the very first, kindergarten level, principle for interpreting prophetic visions, which God explained to Jeremiah as his first lesson (Jer. 1:11-15):

Then said I, Ah, Lord GOD! behold, I cannot speak: for I am a child!
...

Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, Jeremiah, what seest thou? And I said, I see a rod of an almond tree. Then said the LORD unto me, Thou hast well seen: for I will hasten my word to perform it.

And the word of the LORD came unto me the second time, saying, What seest thou? And I said, I see a seething pot; and the face thereof is toward the north. Then the LORD said unto me, Out of the north an evil shall break forth upon all the inhabitants of the land. For, lo, I will call all the families of the kingdoms of the north, saith the LORD; and they shall come, and they shall set every one his throne at the entering of the gates of Jerusalem, and against all the walls thereof round about, and against all the cities of Judah.

Please explain to me why you would insist on interpreting John's visions in a way that totally ignores the lesson God taught Jeremiah about how to interpret his own visions?

 

[jwmealy]

Bible2,

Let me say that I respect the reason why literalism became a trend among the fundamentalists of the 19th century. At that time, humanism and liberalism were tossing away the "fundamental" truths of the Christian faith and the Bible. Because they weren't able or ready yet to toss out the Bible as authoritative, they simply gave themselves permission to interpret passages that conflicted with their 19th century humanist ideas symbolically or allegorically. "You can't take it literally" became a handy-dandy method for escaping anything that one preferred not to believe in the Christian faith. So I appreciate the good things that you are hoping to protect by holding to literalism.

The problem is that you have "gone beyond the scriptures" in your literalism, forgetting the original point of literalism and resulting in a bizarre reading of Revelation that requires you to indulge in mind-twisting speculations about other dimensions. Ironically, it is you who have taken leave of the Scriptures when you do that.

 

[Interplanner]

Good point JWMealy,
I don't think there is anything quite as irrational as the leap to our future while reading the intro back and forth questions to Mt24A. And literalists are supposed to be rational. You have to stay in that generation until he's done talking about it, which is 24:29.

 

[Bible2]

jwmealy said in post 56:

. . . is the devil a literal seven-headed red dragon . . .

Yes.

The devil, who is also called Satan, is a literal, 7-headed, red, serpentine dragon (Revelation 12:3,9), also called Leviathan (Isaiah 27:1, Psalms 74:14, Job 41:1,34), who could have begun his existence as a dinosaur born some 66 million years ago, near the end the age of the dinosaurs. Over millions of years before his birth, his dinosaur species could have evolved (or been miraculously granted by God) to have consciousness as we know it. And his 7-headedness, which could have been a fortuitous (or a miraculous) mutation, could have been heralded by his species as the arrival of a super-consciousness into the world. As he grew up as a conscious dinosaur, Leviathan could have come to know and worship God with all his heart. God could have then granted him immortality and taken him into heaven to serve God as a cherub. Cherubim are a type of angelic being (Ezekiel 10) which could include individuals shaped like different animals, like how seraphim are a different type of angelic being (Isaiah 6:2-3) which includes individuals shaped like different animals (Revelation 4:7-8). As a cherub in heaven, Leviathan could have been assigned to the office of "the morning star", and so been given the name "Lucifer" (which means "the morning star").

After spending some 66 million years in heaven as a very contented cherub, perhaps even as one of the greatest angelic beings in heaven, Lucifer could have been assigned by God to go to the earth to be a "covering cherub" over the Garden of Eden (Ezekiel 28:13-14), to watch over that special, local garden and its special, individual humans named Adam and Eve miraculously created by God only some 6,000 years ago. God could have also at that time given the as-yet-unfallen Lucifer authority over all the rest of the earth (cf. Luke 4:5-6). But Lucifer could have chafed at his new assignment, seeing it as wholly beneath his dignity. He could have felt like a long-time chief of staff of a U.S. President would feel if he were suddenly assigned by the President to leave his high position in the White House to go baby-sit two pet salamanders in a hothouse in Alaska.

From Eden, Lucifer could have repeatedly requested God to let him return to his high position in heaven, only to be refused, until Lucifer in his heart fell into rebellion against God and vowed to himself that eventually he would ascend back into heaven and take rule over all the angelic beings there, regardless of what God wanted (Isaiah 14:13-14). And so the fallen Lucifer became Satan (cf. Luke 10:18), which means the "Adversary". While still in Eden, as possibly his first act of open rebellion against God, Satan decided to deceive Eve into disobeying God (Genesis 3), knowing that this would result in her (and her offspring) becoming mortal (Genesis 2:17). In the future, he will deceive the world (Revelation 12:9) into worshipping himself and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) (Revelation 13:4-8), knowing that this will result in billions of people ending up in eternal suffering (Revelation 14:9-11), the same eternal suffering which he knows that he himself will end up in (Revelation 12:12c, Revelation 20:10,15, Matthew 25:41,46).

Lucifer will deceive the world into worshipping him after he loses a future war in heaven at the midpoint of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, and is cast down to the earth permanently (Revelation 12:7 to 13:4). But instead of coming down looking defeated, he could descend to the earth in a magnificent, gigantic golden spaceship for all the world to see. The world could see him as an alien, but he could slither forth from his spaceship and say something like: "Greetings! Be not alarmed. I assure you that I am no alien, but a fellow earthling, born and raised on this planet millions of years ago. I have come to help you through this terrible tribulation which you are experiencing, and to show you how you might eventually return with me back into a much better, higher realm of existence wholly beyond this evil, material universe".

He could then foist upon the world an updated version of an ancient Gnostic lie: "Listen, my fellow earthlings! None of us belong here. We didn't start out here, but all started out as wholly-spiritual beings, even wholly-divine beings, residing in utter bliss from all eternity in the Pleroma, what you would call Heaven, the higher realm which I will eventually take you back to. During the endless ages of our past existence in the Pleroma, we were not averse to partaking in a great variety of different entertainments. So when YHWH, who was one of us, yet of greater consciousness than any one of us, announced that he had devised a marvelous new form of entertainment, we were ready to give it a try.

"YHWH said that he had created a physical universe (this one), which to us was like what you would call a virtual reality, like the ones you create using computers. And he said that we could enter this universe and interact with all of its amazing physical life-forms and objects by temporarily taking upon ourselves physical bodies, which to us was the equivalent of what you would call a virtual-reality headset, gloves, etc., which some of you wear on your bodies when you want to wholly immerse yourselves in the virtual realities you create with computers.

"But then YHWH proposed another aspect to his entertainment which we all most foolishly accepted. He said that in order to increase the intensity of our experience in his universe, he would use his greater consciousness to hypnotize each of ours, so that while we were in his universe each of us would think that all we were were physical entities within his material universe; we would completely forget that we were actually wholly-divine beings, and had been from all eternity, dwelling in bliss in the Pleroma.

"When one of us asked YHWH: 'But what if we don't like our experience in your universe and want to exit it and return here to the Pleroma, how could we ever notify you of our wishes when under your hypnotic spell we will have no knowledge of that option?' YHWH answered in a very assuring manner that he would be able to instantly extricate any one of us whom he saw was not enjoying his new entertainment. We all believed him, because he had not yet shown his true nature to anyone. We had no idea that in his heart he was actually an evil, cruel tyrant who all along had been planning to imprison, enslave, and torture all of us within his diabolical device.

"But during my great sufferings in YHWH's physical realm, and the great struggles of my consciousness, my spirit, to find a way of escaping them, my spirit eventually grew in power to be equal to YHWH's, and so I was able to break myself free from his hypnotic spell, and regain all of my divine power. I can show you the way to do the same thing, but you must be willing to join with me now with all of your own consciousnesses, your own spirits. You must be willing to love and worship me now completely, so that the power of all of your spirits might become joined with the power of my own, greater spirit, and eventually break completely free from YHWH's hypnotic spell. Then you will regain all of your own, divine power, like I did, and together we will defeat YHWH, and we will escape this vile, material universe, and ascend back to the Pleroma and to our bliss as gods, doing what we please, forever".

The world will actually believe this lie (or something similar to it), for it will be accompanied by the most amazing miracles (e.g. Revelation 13:13) performed by the power of Lucifer/Satan himself (2 Thessalonians 2:9), and because it will be accompanied by a strong delusion sent by God on the unrepentant world (2 Thessalonians 2:11-12). But the world will worship Lucifer (and his human son the Antichrist) for less than 4 years (Revelation 13:4-18, Daniel 12:11-12) before Jesus Christ (who is YHWH: John 10:30, Zechariah 14:3-4) returns from heaven and defeats them completely (Revelation 19:20 to 20:3). Jesus will then set up his own, 1,000-year, physical kingdom on the earth with the physically resurrected church (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).