New Creation Millennialism

[jwmealy]

Hey eschatologists,

I'm new to the forum, and I have a question for folks.

Do any of you know of authors or preachers who advocate the position that the millennium of Rev. 20:1-10 begins in the future, when Jesus comes again, and ALSO that the new creation of Rev. 21:1-22:5 comes into being at the second coming of Jesus, and not at the end of the millennium?

I'm interested in this issue. That position seems to represent a way out of many problems of both premillennialism and amillennialism.

Webb Mealy

 

[Interplanner]

You prob won't find that because the new creation is the total break from the evil of this world, and the 1000 years is part of this earth and history, with its collapse at the end.

 

[jwmealy]

Thanks for the input, Interplanner. When you say "with its collapse at the end," are you referring to Rev. 20:7-10, 20:11, or 21:1?

Also, apropos nothing, why are you listed as a newbie when you're also listed as having posted 9,923 posts?

 

[Interplanner]

I don't know how to use the profile stuff, especially mail, and don't enjoy figuring out things like that.

I was referring to the short time of rebellion, 20:4, 7. I don't know that things are literal; the believers are all around the world. The new Jerusalem is hated so the opposition must be verbal, ideological. And its not on earth yet. How do you "surround" something is not?

 

[jwmealy]

Interplanner,

I agree that the new creation signals a total break from the evil of this world, and I think Rev. 19:14-21 makes it clear (along with other places in Revelation) that no one except the faithful remains alive on the earth following the second coming.

Have you considered the relationship between Rev. 19:17--21:8 and Isa. 24:21--27:5? It seems to me that the attack described in Isa. 26:10-11, background for Rev. 20:7-10, has as its context the renewed world of God's kingship on earth and the great banquet for all the faithful (Isa. 24:23--25:10). Reading John and Isaiah together suggests that John sees the attack of the devil and Gog and Magog as set in the new creation, and as fulfilling the prophecy of Isa. 24:21-22: that the hosts of heaven and kings of the earth will be finally judged "many days" after the inauguration of God's glorious reign on the earth.

 

[jwmealy]

I should add that I agree that no earthly human horde can pose a threat to the Jerusalem above. This is a major problem for the Seventh Day Adventist interpretation of Rev. 20:7-10.

 

[Daniel Martinovich]

Hey eschatologists,

I'm new to the forum, and I have a question for folks.

Do any of you know of authors or preachers who advocate the position that the millennium of Rev. 20:1-10 begins in the future, when Jesus comes again, and ALSO that the new creation of Rev. 21:1-22:5 comes into being at the second coming of Jesus, and not at the end of the millennium?

I'm interested in this issue. That position seems to represent a way out of many problems of both premillennialism and amillennialism.

Webb Mealy

Yeah, I believe the age that is illustrated by the New Jerusalem is also the very same age as rev 20. Course I don't believe the New Jerusalem is s anything other than gods people in that age. That's why I started this thread.
http://www.christianforums.com/t7845158/

 

[jwmealy]

So Daniel,

Is your view (that the new creation and the millennium of Rev. 20 are both inaugurated by the second coming) based on anyone's teaching, or just on your reading of the Bible?

Also, how do you interpret Rev. 20:7-10?

Webb

 

[Daniel Martinovich]

So Daniel,

Is your view (that the new creation and the millennium of Rev. 20 are both inaugurated by the second coming) based on anyone's teaching, or just on your reading of the Bible?

Also, how do you interpret Rev. 20:7-10?

Webb

My own. Based on the prophesied coming of the Lord to Judge the Roman Empire but not based on a "second" coming cause their is no place in the Bible where you'll find the word second and the word coming in the same sentence. You'll find lots of places though where the Lord came in a day of judgment.

Gonna pass on Rev. 20. There is a need for folks to acknowledge the couple dozen chapters of New Jerusalem prophecies before Rev 20 can be reasonable discussed.

 

[jwmealy]

Daniel,

I acknowledge the "couple dozen chapters of New Jerusalem passages." In general, I do not regard the New Jerusalem as a literal city, but as a vision of the resurrected and glorified people of God coming down out of heaven to reign on the resurrected and glorified earth. Do you agree that the coming to earth of the New Jerusalem belongs to the new creation (Rev. 21:1-2), which inaugurates the age described in Rev. 20:1-10 (paralleling Isa. 24:21--27:5)?

Webb

 

[Bible2]

jwmealy said in post 1:

Do any of you know of authors or preachers who advocate the position that the millennium of Rev. 20:1-10 begins in the future, when Jesus comes again, and ALSO that the new creation of Rev. 21:1-22:5 comes into being at the second coming of Jesus, and not at the end of the millennium?

Note that there are no scriptures which prove the ALSO position above, but that there are at least 8 scriptural reasons to read the 1,000 years of Revelation 20:2-6 as not beginning until after Jesus' (never fulfilled) 2nd coming in Revelation 19:7-21.

First, this is in accord with how the rest of Revelation chapters 6 to 22 are in chronological order, insofar as the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 will begin with the events of the 2nd through 6th seals, occurring in the order shown in Revelation 6:3-14. After the events of the 6th seal, Revelation 7 will occur. Then the 7th seal will be unsealed and out of it will come the tribulation's 7 trumpets (Revelation 8:1-6). Then the events of the first 6 trumpets in Revelation 8:7 to Revelation 9:21 will occur in the order shown there. Then Revelation 10 will occur. Then the literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign will occur, which time period is shown from 4 different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 14:9-13).

Then the 7th trumpet will sound, announcing the legal end of the Antichrist's reign (Revelation 11:15). Out of the 7th trumpet's heavenly-temple opening will come the 7 plagues of the 7 vials (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1), the tribulation's final stage. Then the events of the 7 vials will occur in the order shown in Revelation 16. Jesus will return right after the 7th vial (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-21), and he will marry the church at that time (Revelation 19:7). Then he will defeat the world's armies (Revelation 19:11 to 20:3) and reign on the earth with the physically resurrected church for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29; 1 Corinthians 15:51-53). Then the events of Revelation 20:7 to Revelation 22:5 will occur in the order shown there.

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Second, the 1,000 years in Revelation 20:2-6 is when Satan will be literally bound with a chain, and cast into and locked within the literal bottomless pit, while currently he is walking about freely on the earth seeking whom he may devour (1 Peter 5:8). So the 1,000 years can't have started yet. But their beginning after Jesus' 2nd coming makes perfect sense (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Third, during the 1,000 years, Satan won't be able to deceive the world (Revelation 20:3), while currently he is able to deceive the world (2 Corinthians 4:4; 2 Corinthians 11:3,14,15; 2 Thessalonians 2:9-10, Revelation 12:9, Revelation 13:14, Revelation 19:20, Revelation 20:10). So the 1,000 years can't have started yet.

Fourth, the defeat of Satan in Revelation 20:1-3 is in chronological accord with the immediately preceding defeat of the Antichrist (the individual man aspect of the beast), and the False Prophet, and the world's armies, at Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:19-21). Indeed, there is no chapter break between Revelation 19 and Revelation 20 in the original Greek manuscripts, so that Revelation 19:19 to 20:3 can be taken together as a unit, showing how every power of evil will be defeated at Jesus' 2nd coming.

Fifth, reading Revelation 20:4-6 as Jesus and the bodily resurrected church reigning first on the present (not the new) earth after his 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6) matches Jesus reigning first on the present (not the new) earth after his 2nd coming in Zechariah 14:3-21. For Zechariah 14:8-21 can't be referring to the new earth, because it refers to a temple building in Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:20-21), while there will be no temple building in New Jerusalem on the new earth (Revelation 21:22). Also, Zechariah 14:8-21 can't be referring to the new earth because it refers to surviving, unsaved people from the present earth being forced to come up to worship the returned Jesus in Jerusalem during the millennium (Zechariah 14:16-19), while by the time of the new earth, all the unsaved people from the present earth will have already been cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:15 to 21:8).

Sixth, reading the 1st resurrection in Revelation 20:4-6 as the physical resurrection of the church at Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6) matches other verses which show that the physical resurrection of the church will occur at the 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-54; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16).

Seventh, reading the 1st resurrection in Revelation 20:4-6 as the physical resurrection of the church at Jesus' 2nd coming is in line with Revelation 20:5, which must refer in its entirety to only physical resurrection. For not every dead person is going to be figuratively resurrected in the sense of becoming saved (Revelation 20:15). And Revelation 20:5 means that the rest of the dead (i.e. all the non-church dead of all times) will be resurrected in the same manner that the church will be resurrected in Revelation 20:4-6, but the rest of the dead won't be resurrected until sometime after the 1,000 years.

Eighth, reading the 1st resurrection in Revelation 20:4-6 as the physical resurrection of the church at Jesus' 2nd coming is in line with Revelation 20:4, which shows that the people in the 1st resurrection will include those in the church who will have been beheaded by the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) for not worshipping him or his image, or receiving his mark on their hand or forehead. This refers back to the details of Revelation 13:4-18, which have never been fulfilled. So the 1st resurrection can't have happened yet. But its occurring at Jesus' 2nd coming, when he will defeat the Antichrist, makes perfect sense (Revelation 19:20 to 20:6; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-9).

jwmealy said in post 1:

Do any of you know of authors or preachers who advocate the position that the millennium of Rev. 20:1-10 begins in the future, when Jesus comes again, and ALSO that the new creation of Rev. 21:1-22:5 comes into being at the second coming of Jesus, and not at the end of the millennium?

I'm interested in this issue. That position seems to represent a way out of many problems of both premillennialism and amillennialism.

Note that there is no problem with premillennialism.

*******

jwmealy said in post 5:

I think Rev. 19:14-21 makes it clear (along with other places in Revelation) that no one except the faithful remains alive on the earth following the second coming.

Note that in Revelation 19:18, the original Greek word ("pas": G3956) translated as "all" doesn't have to mean absolutely all, but can mean "all manner of" (Acts 10:12). Revelation 19:18 means that all manner of unsaved people alive at that time, "both free and bond, both small and great", will be slain by Jesus at his 2nd coming. It doesn't mean that absolutely all people of all times will be slain at the 2nd coming, nor does it mean that absolutely all people who will still be alive at the 2nd coming will be slain at that time. For obedient Christians who are still alive at that time won't be slain (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17), but will be changed into immortal bodies (1 Corinthians 15:51-53).

And not even all unsaved people alive at the 2nd coming will be slain at that time. For those "left" where they are at the 2nd coming (Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) will include unsaved people who will be forced to come up annually to worship the returned Jesus in Jerusalem during the millennium (Zechariah 14:16-19). These unsaved people will have to be ruled with a rod of iron by Jesus and the physically resurrected church during the millennium (Revelation 2:26-29, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 20:4-6, Psalms 2, Psalms 66:3, Psalms 72:8-11). And their descendants will be deceived by Satan after the millennium into committing the Gog/Magog rebellion (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39).

*******

jwmealy said in post 10:

I do not regard the New Jerusalem as a literal city . . .

Note that New Jerusalem is a literal city, 1,500 miles cubed (Revelation 21:16), with literal pearly gates and literal streets of gold (Revelation 21:21). It is God the Father's house in the 3rd heaven (Revelation 21:2-3, cf. 2 Corinthians 12:2b,4, Revelation 2:7b, Revelation 22:2,14), in which house Jesus left to prepare a place for the church (John 14:2). All those in the church, whether Jews or Gentiles, have figuratively come to New Jerusalem by coming under the New Covenant (Hebrews 12:22-24, Galatians 4:24-26), which is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34), and which only the church comes under by believing in Jesus' New Covenant death on the Cross for our sins (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), the very heart of the gospel (1 Corinthians 15:1-4).

The church looks for Jesus' return from heaven (Philippians 3:20), and the setting up of his physical kingdom on the earth with the physically resurrected church for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). New Jerusalem won't descend from the 3rd heaven to the earth until after a new earth (a new surface of the earth) has been created (Revelation 21:1-4), sometime after the 1,000 years and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15). The church will physically live and reign in New Jerusalem with God the Father and Jesus on the new earth (Revelation 21:1 to 22:5). The Father and Jesus themselves will be the only temple in New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:22).

 

[Daniel Martinovich]

Daniel,

I acknowledge the "couple dozen chapters of New Jerusalem passages." In general, I do not regard the New Jerusalem as a literal city, but as a vision of the resurrected and glorified people of God coming down out of heaven to reign on the resurrected and glorified earth. Do you agree that the coming to earth of the New Jerusalem belongs to the new creation (Rev. 21:1-2), which inaugurates the age described in Rev. 20:1-10 (paralleling Isa. 24:21--27:5)? Webb

That's not exactly what I meant by acknowledging them. What I meant was to acknowledge based on what all of them say: That they taken to together do not allow for the type of reading you are giving Rev. 21-22

Here are a couple I posted already.
Isaiah 60:1 Arise, shine; for your light is come, and the glory of the LORD is risen on you. 2 For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the LORD shall arise on you, and his glory shall be seen on you. 3 And the Gentiles shall come to your light, and kings to the brightness of your rising.
Matthew 5: 14 You are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. 15 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it gives light to all that are in the house. 16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
4 Lift up your eyes round about, and see: all they gather themselves together, they come to you: your sons shall come from far, and your daughters shall be nursed at your side. 5 Then you shall see, and flow together, and your heart shall fear, and be enlarged; because the abundance of the sea (the sea is an illustration of the nations.) shall be converted to you, the wealth of the Gentiles shall come to you.
Without a doubt, this is talking about peoples of all nations coming to Christ. Matthew 28: 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations....

6 The multitude of camels shall cover you, the dromedaries of Midian and Ephah; all they from Sheba shall come: they shall bring gold and incense; and they shall show forth the praises of the LORD. 7 All the flocks of Kedar shall be gathered together to you, the rams of Nebaioth shall minister to you: they shall come up with acceptance on my altar, and I will glorify the house of my glory. 8 Who are these that fly as a cloud, and as the doves to their windows? 9 Surely the isles shall wait for me, and the ships of Tarshish first, to bring your sons from far, their silver and their gold with them, to the name of the LORD your God, and to the Holy One of Israel, because he has glorified you.
Simply saying salvation will go to the nations.

10 And the sons of strangers shall build up your walls, and their kings shall minister to you: for in my wrath I smote you, but in my favor have I had mercy on you.
The nations (the descendants of the strangers) will build the walls of the New Jerusalem. Lets try to make this a little more clear. Rev. 21: And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. Just another way of illustrating this: Ephesians 2: 19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God;20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

11 Therefore your gates shall be open continually; they shall not be shut day nor night; that men may bring to you the wealth of the Gentiles, and that their kings may be brought.
Rev.21 24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honor into it.25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.

12 For the nation and kingdom that will not serve you shall perish; yes, those nations shall be utterly wasted.
This is one of the clearest facts of life on planet earth.


13 The glory of Lebanon shall come to you, the fir tree, the pine tree, and the box together, to beautify the place of my sanctuary; and I will make the place of my feet glorious.
An illustration of those in the nations saved being it's building.

14 The sons also of them that afflicted you shall come bending to you; and all they that despised you shall bow themselves down at the soles of your feet; and they shall call you; The city of the LORD, The Zion of the Holy One of Israel. 15 Whereas you has been forsaken and hated, so that no man went through you, I will make you an eternal excellency, a joy of many generations.
Here we have the New Jerusalem directly interpreted as an illustration of Gods people of all nations. as Rev. 21: alludes to: 9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will show thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. 10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, (Don't know why anyone familiar with the Bible would think the Lamb of God's wife would be a physical city.)
16 You shall also suck the milk of the Gentiles, and shall suck the breast of kings: and you shall know that I the LORD am your Savior and your Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob. 17 For brass I will bring gold, and for iron I will bring silver, and for wood brass, and for stones iron:
Talking of the prosperity of nations that actually "serve" the New Jerusalem. (What that means to serve it is another discussion.)

I will also make your officers peace, and your exactors righteousness. 18 Violence shall no more be heard in your land, wasting nor destruction within your borders; but you shall call your walls Salvation, and your gates Praise. 19 The sun shall be no more your light by day; neither for brightness shall the moon give light to you: but the LORD shall be to you an everlasting light, and your God your glory. 20 Your sun shall no more go down; neither shall your moon withdraw itself: for the LORD shall be your everlasting light, and the days of your mourning shall be ended. 21 Your people also shall be all righteous: they shall inherit the land for ever, the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may be glorified. 22 A little one shall become a thousand, and a small one a strong nation: I the LORD will hasten it in his time. AKJV
Most of this in Rev. 21-22 No moon or sun because it is not a physical city.
Why is the New Jerusalem at the end of the book of Revelation? Because the time period when Gods invisible Kingdom begins to arise in the earth was after the fall of the fourth empire, Rome, 1453 AD of that age of the Gentiles; when those four Gentile empires ruled over, oppressed, made war against Gods saints and overcame them.

 

[Daniel Martinovich]

Daniel,

I acknowledge the "couple dozen chapters of New Jerusalem passages."

Here is another: Revelation quotes it and not visa verse.
Isaiah 65: 16 That he who blesses himself in the earth shall bless himself in the God of truth; and he that swears in the earth shall swear by the God of truth; because the former troubles are forgotten, and because they are hid from my eyes. 17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. 18 But be you glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy. 19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying. 20 There shall be no more there an infant of days, nor an old man that has not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed. 21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them. 22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and my elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands. 23 They shall not labor in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them. 24 And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear. 25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, said the LORD.
Here we have babies being born, life, death, sinners, labor in physical things, prayer, the same holy mountain, ie the government of God. The wolf and the lamb being illustrations of different nations.

 

[Daniel Martinovich]

Daniel,

I acknowledge the "couple dozen chapters of New Jerusalem passages."

And one more. One of my favorites acutally
Hosea 2: 19 And I will betroth thee unto me for ever; yea, I will betroth thee unto me in righteousness, and in judgment, and in loving kindness, and in mercies. 20 I will even betroth thee unto me in faithfulness: and thou shalt know the LORD. 21 And it shall come to pass in that day, I will hear, saith the LORD, I will hear the heavens, and they shall hear the earth; 22 And the earth shall hear the corn, and the wine, and the oil; and they shall hear Jezreel. 23 And I will sow her unto me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them which were not my people, Thou art my people; and they shall say, Thou art my God.

Why would God sow us, the New Jerusalem into the earth? To reap a harvest of the precious fruit of the earth. as it says in these scriptures. Isaiah 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else

Isaiah 49: 8 Thus saith the LORD, In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages;

Isaiah 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen, in whom my soul delights;I have put my Spirit upon him; he will bring forth justice to the nations. 2 He will not cry aloud or lift up his voice, or make it heard in the street; 3 a bruised reed he will not break, and a faintly burning wick he will not quench;he will faithfully bring forth justice.4 He will not grow faint or be discouraged till he has established justice in the earth; and the coastlands wait for his law.

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. 7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

Luke 7: 20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God does not come visibly: 21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Jesus parables about this prophesied government of God say:
1.The preaching of the Word is the vehicle that will bring about all the good changes to the world prophesied throughout the Bible as opposed to the physical changes pop culture end time teachings preach.
2. That these good changes like leaven will affect the entire planet in time.
3. That it is the believer, Jew and Gentile that inherit said Government, as opposed to the physical descendants of Abraham or a physical nation of Israel.
4. That the pearl of great price is more than just going to heaven.
5. That the labor of being a pioneer bringing the gospel to a new place is far harsher than the labor in a country like the USA that has been radically influenced by the Gospel and that is how it is supposed to work. The reward is still heaven for the laborers.
6. That the nations of the world influenced by the Government of God that came through the Gospel will be greater than ancient Israel. Greater in the sense of more righteous and more powerful.
You can see this in these short articles on these parables. Start with the first if you read them as they build on one another.The Parables About the Government of God

 

[Daniel Martinovich]

(never fulfilled) 2nd coming in Revelation 19:7-21

True, because the phrase "second" coming doesn't occur in the Bible. Just the coming of the Lord of which there are a multiple specific prophecies of different ones and multiple fulfillments of. You can see that here.
The Coming (or Day) of the Lord

First, this is in accord with how the rest of Revelation chapters 6 to 22 are in chronological order.

This is under: http://www.christianforums.com/t7846229/ thread.

Originally Posted by ebedmelech
.....where are you going with Revelation 6?The problem starts thinking the four horsemen of Rev 6 are the four empires. They are not...and this is seen right away because Jesus is the one breaking the seals.

Here are some of the reasons.
1. Rev. 6:1-8 starts the same prophecy Rev. 13 starts. They are using different illustrations to describe the same events past present and future and Rev. 13 adds allot more detail. Both start with an illustration of the four empires of the age of the Gentiles. Then in their next scene after the illustration of the empires they both illustrate the events in Judea. Rev. 6:9-7:8 is the same scene as Rev. 14-15:4. These scenes both describe the murder of the saints by unbelieving Jews and Rome. They both describe the destruction of Jerusalem. They both describe the Jewish believers of the first century. They both describe the multitudes saved among the gentiles and Rome's murderous rage against them for the next few centuries. (The great trib)Then both scenes after these illustrations describe seven judgments against Rome.
Rev. 6-11 calls them seven trumpets and Rev. 15:5= chap. 16 call them seven plagues. If you look carefully they describe the same seven things with similar illustrations.

2. Rev. 6 starting a vision that says the same thing as the vision starting in Rev. 13 also corresponds exactly with the big picture already laid out in the book of Daniel. Four consecutive empires known as the age of the gentiles ruling over, oppressing and making war against the saints then being judged by heaven and the start of Age of the prophesied growth of the government of God in the earth.

3. Historically- This all happened exactly as prophesied.

4. The Bibles prophecies are highly, radically exact. They are not like Nostradamus or something that could fit a million different scenarios. If these pop culture end time teaching believers knew how radically accurate they were they would be glorifying God with them rather than making the Bibles prophecies look fake and twisting them to prognosticate and explain every generations troubles.

 

[jwmealy]

Daniel,

One simple question. In your understanding, are we now living in the new creation?

Webb

 

[parousia70]

I agree that the new creation signals a total break from the evil of this world, and I think Rev. 19:14-21 makes it clear (along with other places in Revelation) that no one except the faithful remains alive on the earth following the second coming.

Why then, in Rev 22:14, are there dogs, murderers, sorcerers, adulterers and those who love and practice a lie still existing just outside the new Jerusalem city's open gates?

And why, in Rev 22:2, are the nations there still in need of healing?

 

[jwmealy]

Bible2,

Thanks for an amazingly comprehensive and cogent presentation of your view of Revelation. Rather than writing 20 pages in reply, let me make a concession and ask a question. Zechariah 14 is a problem passage for my view. On the other hand, so are the last nine chapters of Ezekiel. I can't take either one of these passages literally, so I'm not a biblical literalist.

Now a question. Is it your position that sometime shortly before Jesus returns in glory, the UK, Manhattan, Crete, Sardinia, Hawaii, the entirety of Japan, the entirety of New Zealand, Indonesia, Taiwan, the Philippines, Hong Kong, Sri Lanka, Cuba, Iceland, along with all the world's other islands, will disappear? Similarly, will there no longer be any Sierras, Rockies, Himalayas, Alps, and so on? I ask because I would have thought that a consistent literal reading of Revelation combined with a consistent chronological reading leads to these conclusions (Rev. 16:20).

 

[jwmealy]

Why then, in Rev 22:14, are there dogs, murderers, sorcerers, adulterers and those who love and practice a lie still existing just outside the new Jerusalem city's open gates?

And why, in Rev 22:2, are the nations there still in need of healing?

Parousia70,

Good questions. In the first place, those described in Rev. 22:14 will be in the lake of fire (Rev. 21:8). I suspect that on your view, as on mine, the lake of fire is outside the New Jerusalem. As far as being "just" outside, that is your interpolation. As for the healing properties leaves of the tree(s) of life, I take this as an expansion of the promise in Rev. 7:17, where an angel tells John, "He who sits on the throne (God and Jesus) will shepherd them, and will lead them to the springs of the water of life, and God will wipe away every tear from their eyes." You can imagine that the healing of all our spiritual and heart griefs will happen instantaneously when we are resurrected, or you can imagine that there will be a gentle and progressive wiping away of our tears. Rev. 22:2 perhaps invites us to look at it in the latter way.

 

[parousia70]

Parousia70,

Good questions. In the first place, those described in Rev. 22:14 will be in the lake of fire (Rev. 21:8). I suspect that on your view, as on mine, the lake of fire is outside the New Jerusalem.

So are you an annhilationist then? or do you believe those in the lake of fire suffer eternal conscious punishment?

Your previous statement that only the saved will exist on the new earth, when coupled with the one you just made above, indicating you believe the damned will exist there too, seem to be contradictory.

As for the healing properties leaves of the tree(s) of life, I take this as an expansion of the promise in Rev. 7:17, where an angel tells John, "He who sits on the throne (God and Jesus) will shepherd them, and will lead them to the springs of the water of life, and God will wipe away every tear from their eyes."

What about tears of Joy? Will we not be able to experience those anymore either?

Plus, as I understand the scriptures, the Water of Life is a present reality in Christ.
That anyone who thirsts can come to him today and drink, and one drink from those waters and we shall never thirst again.

Who are the "thirsty ones" on the new earth inside the city if it's only the already saved there who no longer thirst?

You can imagine that the healing of all our spiritual and heart griefs will happen instantaneously when we are resurrected, or you can imagine that there will be a gentle and progressive wiping away of our tears. Rev. 22:2 perhaps invites us to look at it in the latter way.

Well, seems to me both can't be true, can they?