NEW covenant

sparow

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Solomon said there is nothing new under the sun. Should he be taken literally? Is the new covenant not new or is it not under the sun? What does the new mean in New Covenant mean? Does it mean that the old covenant is turned upside down?

We have different theologies, different scenarios and different paradigms; but there isn't any reason why we cannot understand each other's point of view.

Most appear to believe that the old covenant and the new covenant are separate entities.

I believe there is one covenant which may be renewed; A standard form that may be renewed, and has been renewed many times with Israel, a standard form that may be reapplied and is reapplied in the new covenant such that Jesus has said not even grammar is changed in the covenant/Law.

In the new covenant reapplied Jesus is the High Priest not Aaron or a Pharisee, Jesus is the sacrifice not the sheep, the disciples of Christ are the priesthood not the Levites, baptism is a sanctuary service and the sanctuary services are performed once during the perceived interval between the comings of Christ. This is the old covenant partly fulfilled or partly confirmed; fully confirmed is Christ's return and the remaining prophesies concerning Him are fulfilled and the Law is written on the on the hearts of those saved without them having to learn the Law. The covenant of God is summarised as: God will Provide the Kingdom of God and salvation as a reward for those who enter into His covenant.

Most Christian faiths are centred around “the Law abrogated”; the old covenant is the Law; their covenant is the Law-not and this is strange for a God who does not change.

They say one cannot earn salvation; it is true one cannot earn salvation by keeping the Law; that is the Law can appear to be kept without entering into the covenant; but entering into the covenant includes keeping the Law. The pharisees had not entered and would not allow anyone else to enter in either

It is not that the pharisees could not earn their salvation by works, it was their works were not unto salvation, theirs was not the covenant.

In Mar 7:6-13 Christ declares them to be the slaves of their own man-made tradition instead of obeying the Word of God

They say, “Jesus kept the Law perfectly so that do not have to.” I am not aware that the scriptures say so. Matt 5:17 and Luke 24:44 do not refer to keeping perfectly whether they be ten or 600, these verses refer to confirming the covenant or bring the covenant to fruition; Dan 9:26-27. Many think verse 27 refers to Satan but Satan would not k[make desolate because of abominations.

Matthew 5:17 (NKJV)
17 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfil.

Luke 24:44 (NKJV)
44 Then He said to them, "These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me."

Daniel 9:26-27 (NKJV)
26 "And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined.

27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate."

So we have two sets of opposites, the Law or the Law-not and the seventieth week belongs to Christ or the seventieth week is thrown down to the end of time and given to Satan.

God does not give us two choices; the second choices are concoctions of men as with the Pharisees before them.

Futurism begins as opologetics at the council of Trent, throwing the anti-Christ outside the time frame of the Papacy so that the Papacy could not be seen as the Beast or any other bad guy.

Once the Law is abrogated anything may go and God's credibility in the minds of men destroyed.
 

R. Hartono

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Solomon said there is nothing new under the sun. Should he be taken literally? Is the new covenant not new
He might not even understand there would be a New Covenant.
He spoke about wordly life of people. eating, drinking, marrying, building etc.
 
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Francis Drake

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Excellent. I agree.

Foolish Christians seem to believe that OT believers were saved by keeping the Law, whereas NT believers are saved by grace and mercy.
The truth is that law and grace have always been there running parallel to each other from Adam onwards.
The truth is also that Jesus is the lamb slain from the foundation of the earth.

Hebrews10v4For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
The above verse is regularly quoted as proof that the OT sacrifices were meaningless, but that's not what it says.
In fact its merely the same as someone today correctly saying, "For it is not possible that the wine of communion should take away sins."

In both cases, neither the blood of bulls and goats, nor the wine will do anything. Its what they represent and that's the blood of Christ Jesus in both cases.
 
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1stcenturylady

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Excellent. I agree.

Foolish Christians seem to believe that OT believers were saved by keeping the Law, whereas NT believers are saved by grace and mercy.
The truth is that law and grace have always been there running parallel to each other from Adam onwards.
The truth is also that Jesus is the lamb slain from the foundation of the earth.

Hebrews10v4For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
The above verse is regularly quoted as proof that the OT sacrifices were meaningless, but that's not what it says.
In fact its merely the same as someone today correctly saying, "For it is not possible that the wine of communion should take away sins."

In both cases, neither the blood of bulls and goats, nor the wine will do anything. Its what they represent and that's the blood of Christ Jesus in both cases.

The only difference is in how we keep it and why? Do we still sacrifice animals for our sins as in the Old Covenant? No! Why? Christ is our sacrifice.

Do we still obey the laws about the Sabbath Rest? No! Why? Jesus is our Sabbath Rest. We trust Him EVERYDAY, MOMENT BY MOMENT, not one day a week.

Do we still keep the moral laws in our own strength? No! Jesus has given us His Own Spirit to make us dead to sin and no longer in the flesh, but in the Spirit. Thus we don't break laws we have no desire to break. Thus we establish the law. By walking in the Spirit we are no longer under the law. Grace in no way means we can BREAK the moral laws, as that would still be sin. No, grace is the power of God to KEEP His laws. It is not our own strength that we keep His laws, it is all Him in us. Our own strength equals, work. We are not saved by us doing righteousness, as our own righteousness is as filthy rags. No! It is the Holy Spirit in us creating the desire to be righteous, not us alone.

"But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you"
 
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Francis Drake

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The only difference is in how we keep it and why? Do we still sacrifice animals for our sins as in the Old Covenant? No! Why? Christ is our sacrifice.
Obviously, but from the very Garden of Eden when the Lord slaughtered the lamb and put the bloody skins on their shoulders it is only been the blood of Christ that redeems.
Do we still obey the laws about the Sabbath Rest? No! Why? Jesus is our Sabbath Rest. We trust Him EVERYDAY, MOMENT BY MOMENT, not one day a week.
Of course.
Do we still keep the moral laws in our own strength? No! Jesus has given us His Own Spirit to make us dead to sin and no longer in the flesh, but in the Spirit. Thus we don't break laws we have no desire to break. Thus we establish the law. By walking in the Spirit we are no longer under the law. Grace in no way means we can BREAK the moral laws, as that would still be sin. No, grace is the power of God to KEEP His laws. It is not our own strength that we keep His laws, it is all Him in us. Our own strength equals, work. We are not saved by us doing righteousness, as our own righteousness is as filthy rags. No! It is the Holy Spirit in us creating the desire to be righteous, not us alone.
You are arguing against something I never said.
 
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1stcenturylady

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Obviously, but from the very Garden of Eden when the Lord slaughtered the lamb and put the bloody skins on their shoulders it is only been the blood of Christ that redeems.

Of course.

You are arguing against something I never said.

I'm not arguing against anyone, just giving my own understanding of our New Covenant, and what grace truly is.

I should not have replied to your post, but just gone down further on the page and created a stand alone - sorry.
 
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com7fy8

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:)

Maybe I'll do a stand alone :)

Our covenant in Jesus is new, especially how in us we are new in Jesus.

And Jesus Himself is our rest which can not be measured by a material sun and its relative position around the earth. Jesus is not under the sun!!

Also, Jesus has always been new . . . in nature. The true newness of the New Covenant has existed before there was the Law of Moses and the sun.
 
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Solomon said there is nothing new under the sun. Should he be taken literally? Is the new covenant not new or is it not under the sun? What does the new mean in New Covenant mean? Does it mean that the old covenant is turned upside down?
....

New covenant means this:

For finding fault with them, he said, "Behold, the days come," says the Lord, "That I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah; Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers, In the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; For they didn't continue in my covenant, And I disregarded them," says the Lord. "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel. After those days," says the Lord; "I will put my laws into their mind, I will also write them on their heart. I will be to them a God, And they will be to me a people. They will not teach every man his fellow citizen, Every man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' For all will know me, From the least of them to the greatest of them. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness. I will remember their sins and lawless deeds no more."
Hebrews 8:8-12 (Jeremiah 31:31-34)

The law seems to be the same, but it is written into person’s heart.

That can happen by the words Jesus declared.

But as many as received him, to them he gave the right to become God's children, to those who believe in his name: who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
John 1:12-13

It is the spirit who gives life. The flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and are life.
John 6:63
 
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sparow

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The only difference is in how we keep it and why? Do we still sacrifice animals for our sins as in the Old Covenant? No! Why? Christ is our sacrifice.

Do we still obey the laws about the Sabbath Rest? No! Why? Jesus is our Sabbath Rest. We trust Him EVERYDAY, MOMENT BY MOMENT, not one day a week.

Do we still keep the moral laws in our own strength? No! Jesus has given us His Own Spirit to make us dead to sin and no longer in the flesh, but in the Spirit. Thus we don't break laws we have no desire to break. Thus we establish the law. By walking in the Spirit we are no longer under the law. Grace in no way means we can BREAK the moral laws, as that would still be sin. No, grace is the power of God to KEEP His laws. It is not our own strength that we keep His laws, it is all Him in us. Our own strength equals, work. We are not saved by us doing righteousness, as our own righteousness is as filthy rags. No! It is the Holy Spirit in us creating the desire to be righteous, not us alone.

"But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you"


I am glad you are here; charismatic frightens me; by celibate do you mean not married, not intending to marry or are you referring to an oath?

Debate proves who is the better debater, who is better educated and who is more skilled but not who is right. Debates can be useful, as the scriptures are bread of life, tossing them back and forth is chewing the cud.

We owe it to ourselves and to God to seek the faith once delivered to the twelve apostles and this should be a continuing process. In this vein I offer an opinion regarding something you said.

"Do we still obey the laws about the Sabbath Rest? No! Why? Jesus is our Sabbath Rest. We trust Him EVERYDAY, MOMENT BY MOMENT, not one day a week".

Jesus is our Sabbath implies we have ENTERED IN to His covenant and keeping the Sabbath is a sign that we have entered into the covenant; we can say we have entered in but God requires we exercise our part in the covenant; which is not to sleep but be a useful servant.

What does the Lord of the Sabbath say about the commandments:

Matthew 19:17 (NKJV)
17 So He said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments."
 
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sparow

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New covenant means this:

For finding fault with them, he said, "Behold, the days come," says the Lord, "That I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah; Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers, In the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; For they didn't continue in my covenant, And I disregarded them," says the Lord. "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel. After those days," says the Lord; "I will put my laws into their mind, I will also write them on their heart. I will be to them a God, And they will be to me a people. They will not teach every man his fellow citizen, Every man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' For all will know me, From the least of them to the greatest of them. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness. I will remember their sins and lawless deeds no more."
Hebrews 8:8-12 (Jeremiah 31:31-34)

The law seems to be the same, but it is written into person’s heart.

That can happen by the words Jesus declared.

But as many as received him, to them he gave the right to become God's children, to those who believe in his name: who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
John 1:12-13

It is the spirit who gives life. The flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and are life.
John 6:63

The issue is primarily with the use of the word new, and most Christians abrogate the Law and the say a redundant Law is written on their hearts.

Jeremiah I take notice of; Do you know anyone who has the Law written on their inward parts; the evidence would be, they would be sinless, not deemed sinless, keeping the Law perfectly as it will be in the kingdom of God without having to be taught or told. For this reason I believe Jeremiah's new covenant description refers to the future fruition of the new covenant; not to the terms and process of the new covenant.
 
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1stcenturylady

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I am glad you are here; charismatic frightens me; by celibate do you mean not married, not intending to marry or are you referring to an oath?

Debate proves who is the better debater, who is better educated and who is more skilled but not who is right. Debates can be useful, as the scriptures are bread of life, tossing them back and forth is chewing the cud.

We owe it to ourselves and to God to seek the faith once delivered to the twelve apostles and this should be a continuing process. In this vein I offer an opinion regarding something you said.

"Do we still obey the laws about the Sabbath Rest? No! Why? Jesus is our Sabbath Rest. We trust Him EVERYDAY, MOMENT BY MOMENT, not one day a week".

Jesus is our Sabbath implies we have ENTERED IN to His covenant and keeping the Sabbath is a sign that we have entered into the covenant; we can say we have entered in but God requires we exercise our part in the covenant; which is not to sleep but be a useful servant.

What does the Lord of the Sabbath say about the commandments:

Matthew 19:17 (NKJV)
17 So He said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments."

The Sabbath was the SIGN of the Old Covenant. We are under a New Covenant with its own SIGN based of the blood of Jesus Christ, the CUP OF THE NEW COVENANT. 1 Corinthians 11:25
 
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1stcenturylady

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I am glad you are here; charismatic frightens me; by celibate do you mean not married, not intending to marry or are you referring to an oath?

Debate proves who is the better debater, who is better educated and who is more skilled but not who is right. Debates can be useful, as the scriptures are bread of life, tossing them back and forth is chewing the cud.

We owe it to ourselves and to God to seek the faith once delivered to the twelve apostles and this should be a continuing process. In this vein I offer an opinion regarding something you said.

"Do we still obey the laws about the Sabbath Rest? No! Why? Jesus is our Sabbath Rest. We trust Him EVERYDAY, MOMENT BY MOMENT, not one day a week".

Jesus is our Sabbath implies we have ENTERED IN to His covenant and keeping the Sabbath is a sign that we have entered into the covenant; we can say we have entered in but God requires we exercise our part in the covenant; which is not to sleep but be a useful servant.

What does the Lord of the Sabbath say about the commandments:

Matthew 19:17 (NKJV)
17 So He said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments."

What about Charismatic frightens you? All it means is that you have been baptized by the Holy Spirit Who gives us the power to become righteous. Of course, He also gives us the gifts of the Spirit which are wonderful, and mind-blowing. Nothing to be afraid of.

Celibate means single and not planning to marry (or even date)
 
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Soyeong

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There are many verses that describe the Mosaic Covenant as being a marriage between God and Israel, such as with God describing Himself as her husband (Jeremiah 31:32), or with Israel's unfaithfulness being described as adultery, which eventually got so bad that God wrote the Northern Kingdom a certificate of divorce (Jeremiah 3:8), yet God continued to call for Israel to return to Him. This raises a significant problem for those who know that Law because Deuteronomy 24:1-4 forbids a women from returning to her first husband after she has been divorced and been with another man. The only way that she could be released from her adultery would be if her first marriage were nullified through the death of her husband, so it was a great mystery how God would accomplish this. This was the point that Paul was making in Romans 7:1-4 when he was speaking to those who know the Law and saying that we have died to the law of our husband through the death of Christ so that we can be free to belong to another, to him who God raised from the dead in order to bear fruit for God. So the Mosaic and New Covenants are all about God's marriage, divorce, and remarriage to Israel.
 
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sparow

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There are many verses that describe the Mosaic Covenant as being a marriage between God and Israel, such as with God describing Himself as her husband (Jeremiah 31:32), or with Israel's unfaithfulness being described as adultery, which eventually got so bad that God wrote the Northern Kingdom a certificate of divorce (Jeremiah 3:8), yet God continued to call for Israel to return to Him. This raises a significant problem for those who know that Law because Deuteronomy 24:1-4 forbids a women from returning to her first husband after she has been divorced and been with another man. The only way that she could be released from her adultery would be if her first marriage were nullified through the death of her husband, so it was a great mystery how God would accomplish this. This was the point that Paul was making in Romans 7:1-4 when he was speaking to those who know the Law and saying that we have died to the law of our husband through the death of Christ so that we can be free to belong to another, to him who God raised from the dead in order to bear fruit for God. So the Mosaic and New Covenants are all about God's marriage, divorce, and remarriage to Israel.

I think adultery and divorce when used to describe unfaithfulness is symbolic language and should not be taken literally.

You are right, the real new covenant was made with the lost sheep of Israel, they were brought back into the covenant, the seventy disciples sent out were told to go to the lost sheep of Israel, but not the gentiles.

Matthew 15:24 (NKJV)
24 But He answered and said, "I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

Isiah, Jeremiah and Ezekiel are about and addressed to the house of Israel, which did not exist when Jeremiah and Ezekiel wrote Jesus re-established the House of Israel when He brought the lost sheep back into covenant. All the scriptures with exception of the epistles, especially the epistles of Paul, are to the house of Israel, they do not have a separate covenant with God. But Paul did say the gentiles are to be folded into the house of Israel.
 
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sparow

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The Sabbath was the SIGN of the Old Covenant. We are under a New Covenant with its own SIGN based of the blood of Jesus Christ, the CUP OF THE NEW COVENANT. 1 Corinthians 11:25


Jesus' blood is for both covenants and both covenants are made with the house of Israel; If the new covenant is not made with the house of Israel it is not made with Christ; Gentiles are to be folded into Israel.
 
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sparow

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What about Charismatic frightens you? All it means is that you have been baptized by the Holy Spirit Who gives us the power to become righteous. Of course, He also gives us the gifts of the Spirit which are wonderful, and mind-blowing. Nothing to be afraid of.

Celibate means single and not planning to marry (or even date)

Their primary doctrines are the anti-thesis of what I follow.
 
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1stcenturylady

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Jesus' blood is for both covenants and both covenants are made with the house of Israel; If the new covenant is not made with the house of Israel it is not made with Christ; Gentiles are to be folded into Israel.

Of course. His blood was being shed. Then He said, "It is finished." Those OT saints that were saved were trusting in the Messiah that was to come, Jesus. Those that weren't trusting in God and their Messiah, died in their sins. Their Sabbath rest represented the rest/trust in God/Messiah until the fulfillment of the Messiah came, Jesus. And before Jesus died, the OC was still in affect.

Romans 11 shows clearly that the New Covenant was made with those believing in Jesus as their Messiah, not another Messiah. They are true Israel, and us Gentiles are grafted in. Those who didn't accept Jesus as their Messiah were partially blinded until the fullness of the Gentiles come into the Church, and when the last Gentile is saved, then national Israel's eyes will be cleared to see that Jesus is their Messiah too.
 
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1stcenturylady

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Their primary doctrines are the anti-thesis of what I follow.

What doctrine do you follow? Does any part of our New Testament not apply to you?
 
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"He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenantnot of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills...the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone...the ministry that condemns" (2 Corinthians 3:6-9).

The law on our heart and mind is the love of the Spirit, not the law of the letter. This is why Paul tells us that the new covenant is a covenant of the Spirit, and not of the letter.

"No one pours new wine into old wineskins. If he does, the new wine will burst the skins, the wine will run out and the wineskins will be ruined. No, new wine must be poured into new wineskins." (Luke 5:37-38).
 
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