New Covenant - fulfilled?

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nolidad

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As it's already been brought up, the passages written in present tense (written almost 2,000 years ago) seem to be getting ignored in order to hold onto a futurist belief. This is one of those passages getting pushed to the side and ignored:

Acts 2
5Now there were dwelling(b) in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven.

6And when this sound rang out, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard them speaking his own language
7Astounded and amazed, they asked, “Are not all these men who are speaking Galileans? 8How is it then that each of us hears them in his own native language? 9Parthians, Medes, and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia,c 10Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome, 11both Jews and converts to Judaism; Cretans and Arabs—we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!”12Astounded and perplexed, they asked one another, “What does this mean?”
Please read full context here to see Peter’s answer

This is true and I agree 100% with this. It is the Word of God after all. But it doesn't fulfill the terms of the new covenant declared by god:

Jeremiah 31:31-34
King James Version

31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

If one reads carefully, one does not see God saying I will make a new covenant with SOME of the house of Israel and with SOME of the house of Judah!

Then in verse 34 it says "ALL show know me" not MOST or MANY or SOME or just a REMNANT.
 
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nolidad

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What do you call God's relationship with Saul/Paul, if not evidence of the fulfillment of the New Covenant with Israel? I bring Paul up as an example because of what he, himself, tells us about his background here:

Philippians 3:4-5
If anyone else thinks he has grounds for confidence in the flesh, I have more:
circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin; a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the law, a Pharisee

Well show me how Pauls relationship , and add even the Apostles and all the Jewish believers of the early church to him, show me how that fulfills the terms of teh covenant as God declared it:

Jeremiah 31:31-34
King James Version

31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.


I await your answer to this.

I am convinced of what Paul and the apostles and the jews who came to Christ what it means, but I need for you to show me how it fulfills the new covenant as declared by God.
 
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nolidad

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God's not surprised....you're absolutely correct. But I am surprised that, even after God has fulfilled His promises (against amazing and miraculous odds) people that call themselves bearers of His name deny what He's done.

I have not denied one little jot or tittle of what He has done especially since the start of Pentecost!

But if you think I am in error about the fulfillment (completion or finishing) of the new covenant, please please, for about the tenth time show me how the terms of teh covenant as declared by God have been fulfilled either in Jesus as you say, or any time in history since Jesus camer the first time.

Jeremiah 31:31-34
King James Version

31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

I await for you to show me! If you can show me that the terms of the New Covenant as declared by God have been fulfilled, I will gladly and openly repent of the error!

You and BAB have been skirting around the edges of this. BAB finally succumbed and actually lied about the things I have said after I had just told him I never said those things. and since I called him on it he has been as silent as a tomb.

Why not just show me the fulfillment and we can move on to other discussions.
 
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mkgal1

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But it doesn't fulfill the terms of the new covenant declared by god:
That should say, "it doesn't fulfill the terms of the new covenant as I interpret them". Otherwise, there's disagreement with what the author of Hebrews wrote about throughout the entire book of Hebrews.
 
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mkgal1

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I am convinced of what Paul and the apostles and the jews who came to Christ what it means, but I need for you to show me how it fulfills the new covenant as declared by God.
God didn't make the promise to restore ALL of Israel without them ever turning to Him. God doesn't override the will of humanity (in my belief).

The condition of the Mosaic Covenant was that there would be curses and 7-fold punishment for those who continued to turn away from the One True God.

Leviticus 26:18-28
 
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Guojing

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First clarify your definition of "True Israel". Is it exclusively those who are in Christ?

to me israel always refers to the physical nation.

But I don’t think you define Israel the same way, since you allow the idea of spiritual Israel. I am just trying to understand your view
 
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mkgal1

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Why do they not know God now?
"They"...the remaining Israelites that were alive after 70 AD is who I was referring to. They were the believing remnant that gave birth to our Church. "They" have perished.....but our Church continues because of their faithfulness.
 
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Timtofly

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Just posting what the scriptures say...
Well not all of the verses of one's life, evidently, but that is besides the point. Many righteous humans have lived. Not any 100% like Enoch did is my point. I cannot prove it, but I am convinced Elijah is Enoch. Enoch could also fit several other humans in history who remain off center stage. The OT indicates Elijah comes at least once, if not more times in history.
 
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Timtofly

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"They"...the remaining Israelites that were alive after 70 AD is who I was referring to. They were the believing remnant that gave birth to our Church. "They" have perished.....but our Church continues because of their faithfulness.
There were millions of remaining Israelites all over the earth in 70AD. You did not clarify to whom you were referring. Also many Israelites rejected the new church and maintained their synagogues in rejection of the Messiah.
 
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jgr

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to me israel always refers to the physical nation.

But I don’t think you define Israel the same way, since you allow the idea of spiritual Israel. I am just trying to understand your view

Paul distinguishes two Israels; one is the children of the flesh who are not the children of God.

The other is the children of the promise who are counted for the seed. (Galatians 4:28; Galatians 3:28,29)

The first Israel is physical Israel outside of Christ.

The second Israel is spiritual Israel in Christ.

I call the second Israel true Israel, (my expression) because they are true to Christ.


Romans 9
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
 
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jgr

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You really mean, "it doesn't fulfill the terms of the new covenant as I interpret them". Otherwise, there's disagreement with what the author of Hebrews wrote about throughout the entire book of Hebrews.

Mkgal1, here are the testimonies of two Early Church Fathers on Hebrews 8.

Ask our friend to cite anyone of the true Church before the 19th century who denied the full and complete NT fulfillment by Christ of Hebrews 8.

For some entertainment, tell him that Tertullian's testimony is equally an "Answer to the dispensationalists".

Clement of Alexandria, Stromata, Book VI, Chapter V
He made a new covenant with us; for what belonged to the Greeks and Jews is old. But we, who worship Him in a new way, in the third form, are Christians.

Tertullian, Answer to the Jews, Chapter VI
And so there is incumbent on us a necessity89 binding us, since we have premised that a new law was predicted by the prophets, and that not such as had been already given to their fathers at the time when He led them forth from the land of Egypt,90 to show and prove, on the one hand, that that old Law has ceased, and on the other, that the promised new law is now in operation.
 
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Timtofly

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The first Israel is physical Israel outside of Christ.

The second Israel is spiritual Israel in Christ.

I call the second Israel true Israel, (my expression) because they are true to Christ.
This is not correct.

Adam is one family. Abraham is one family in Adam. Israel is one family in Abraham. The church is not a subset of Israel. Never was, never will be. You are exchanging a physical application for opportunity. Romans 11:13-23


13 "However, to those of you who are Gentiles I say this: since I myself am an emissary sent to the Gentiles, I make known the importance of my work
14 in the hope that somehow I may provoke some of my own people to jealousy and save some of them!
15 For if their casting Yeshua aside means reconciliation for the world, what will their accepting him mean? It will be life from the dead!
16 Now if the hallah offered as firstfruits is holy, so is the whole loaf. And if the root is holy, so are the branches.
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you — a wild olive — were grafted in among them and have become equal sharers in the rich root of the olive tree,
18 then don’t boast as if you were better than the branches! However, if you do boast, remember that you are not supporting the root, the root is supporting you.
19 So you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
20 True, but so what? They were broken off because of their lack of trust. However, you keep your place only because of your trust. So don’t be arrogant; on the contrary, be terrified!
21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he certainly won’t spare you!
22 So take a good look at God’s kindness and his severity: on the one hand, severity toward those who fell off; but, on the other hand, God’s kindness toward you — provided you maintain yourself in that kindness! Otherwise, you too will be cut off!
23 Moreover, the others, if they do not persist in their lack of trust, will be grafted in; because God is able to graft them back in."

Gentiles are not brought into Israel. The olive tree is the church, not Israel. Calling Israel spiritual and physical is the wrong interpretation of what the church is. The church is the physical olive tree. Israel made up the original branches. The olive tree is not Israel giving Israel a physical and spiritual membership. Israel was grafted in just like any member of Abraham's and Adam's descendants can be grafted into the church. For 1400 years church membership was by the Law. It was still Faith in God, but surrounded by a temple economy of animal sacrifices, the sacrifices meant nothing. Obedience to God in Faith was still the only means of salvation. Paul never associates time frames, nor judges Israel for past wickedness. Paul is just pointing out the branch that crucified Christ was used by God as the means to save the world. It was a warning for the Gentiles to not get too proud in their grafted position. God could restore a lost branch and bless it more than the wild branch.

Paul states, so what if branches are broken off or added in. The old and new covenant was never supposed to be a battle over who is in Christ and who is not. What is the big deal about theology that creates such a binary position? Some who think they are in the church today merely by their theological understanding, could be a branch already broken and in the fire, and how would one even know it? That was the state of Israel at the first coming. The church is not immune but more so since the original branches are still a warning of what happens, but we have exchanged the warning and created false theology around what it is to be part of Christ, the olive tree, the church.
 
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jgr

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Obedience to God in Faith was still the only means of salvation.

Exactly what I've been saying.

Exactly what Paul was saying.

Nothing to do with physical DNA.

In Christ, or not in Christ.

Spiritual DNA exclusively.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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This is true and I agree 100% with this. It is the Word of God after all. But it doesn't fulfill the terms of the new covenant declared by god:

Jeremiah 31:31-34
King James Version

31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

If one reads carefully, one does not see God saying I will make a new covenant with SOME of the house of Israel and with SOME of the house of Judah!

Then in verse 34 it says "ALL show know me" not MOST or MANY or SOME or just a REMNANT.
The new covenant of Christ's shed blood on the cross for salvation is available to all all of the houses of Israel and Judah right now. They don't have to wait. Today (now) is the day of salvation for all people, including the houses of Israel and Judah.

2 Cor 6:1 As God’s co-workers we urge you not to receive God’s grace in vain. 2 For he says, “In the time of my favor I heard you, and in the day of salvation I helped you.” I tell you, now is the time of God’s favor, now is the day of salvation.


New Covenant Prophecy:


Jeremiah 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord: 33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

New Covenant Prophecy Fulfillment

Hebrews 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. 7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8 For finding fault with them, he saith (in Jeremiah 31:31-34), Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: 9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Hebrews 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

Luke 22:16 When the hour came, Jesus and his apostles reclined at the table. 15 And he said to them, “I have eagerly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer. 16 For I tell you, I will not eat it again until it finds fulfillment in the kingdom of God.” 17 After taking the cup, he gave thanks and said, “Take this and divide it among you. 18 For I tell you I will not drink again from the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes.” 19 And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me.” 20 In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.

Nowhere does scripture teach that the new covenant is postponed for the houses of Israel and Judah. It was put into effect for them and the whole world almost 2,000 years ago.
 
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Guojing

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Paul distinguishes two Israels; one is the children of the flesh who are not the children of God.

The other is the children of the promise who are counted for the seed. (Galatians 4:28; Galatians 3:28,29)

The first Israel is physical Israel outside of Christ.

The second Israel is spiritual Israel in Christ.

I call the second Israel true Israel, (my expression) because they are true to Christ.


Romans 9
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

That is why I ask you to clarify whether you are making a tautological argument

that by definition, the current body of Christ is spiritual Israel.

Is that a yes?
 
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jgr

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That is why I ask you to clarify whether you are making a tautological argument

that by definition, the current body of Christ is spiritual Israel.

Is that a yes?

No, because you've misstated the relationship.

Spiritual Israel (i.e. the remnant of physical Israel which is in Christ) is part of the current body of Christ.
 
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Guojing

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No, because you've misstated the relationship.

Spiritual Israel (i.e. the remnant of physical Israel which is in Christ) is part of the current body of Christ.

So you are saying you believe some of the current BOC do not belong to spiritual Israel? Who are these then?
 
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