Never heard one Christian answer this successfully...

mulimulix · Mar 7, 2011

laconicstudent said:
From the OP's absence, I assume we answered his question adequately.....

Lol, for some reason, I haven't received any emails alerting my of responses, which is unusual, so I have forgotten about it 'til now.

I quickly just scanned through a few answers and I'm not sure the question has been completely satisfied, but I'd like to leave it at that. I wasn't trying to turn this into a discussion, I just wanted to see what some of you thought about it.

Thanks to everyone that responded

elman · Mar 7, 2011

mulimulix said:
The argument goes something like this:

Atheist: Why is there evil in the world?
Christian: Because god gave everyone free will
Atheist: Ok, so is there evil in heaven?
Christian: Of course not...
Atheist: Is there free will in heaven?
Christian: *Head explodes*

An answer to this would be helpful for the further understanding of Christian logic

Of course there is free will in heaven, but there, we will not have the tempation we have here. There is evil in this world because men use their free will to chose to be unloving. If we were face to face with God here, His presence would be so overwhelming, we would not have the ability to freely chose to obey Him and could not therefore truly voluntarily chose to love others and Him. When we are face to face with God, we will be in His overhwelming presence and will not be tempted to be unloving. Faith is only needed when we cannot see Him. Now we walk by faith and not by sight. There we will be face to face with Him.

Harry3142 · Mar 7, 2011

There is evil in the world because mankind in its arrogance chose to desire to be a god rather than following God. Those who have 'seen the light' and are now counted among the blessed have abandoned this arrogance, choosing instead to follow God rather than their trying to be a god.

elman · Mar 7, 2011

Harry3142 said:
There is evil in the world because mankind in its arrogance chose to desire to be a god rather than following God. Those who have 'seen the light' and are now counted among the blessed have abandoned this arrogance, choosing instead to follow God rather than their trying to be a god.

There is evil in the world because mankind has chosen to be unloving. That is evil.

The Fourth Horseman · Mar 14, 2011

Gracia Singh said:
Hey, bro.

There is indeed free will in Heaven. Many Christians read the Bible and tradition to conclude that Satan himself and his forces were once angels, who chose to rebell against God, and were cast out of Heaven as a consequence.

God also isn't going to compell us to enter a place we don't want to go, or refuse to enter. There is no evil in Heaven, as those who have chosen to reject God have already left, as it were. Those who enter enter by God's Son, willingly, and gladly.

But if Humans act in anyway similar to the way they act on Earth when in Heaven, than it is inevitable that evil will arise. There have been plenty of evil people who were devout christians and many great people who where not. Many have said only christians will be saved. So in that case people like Vlad the Impaler go to heaven.

elman · Mar 14, 2011

The Fourth Horseman said:
But if Humans act in anyway similar to the way they act on Earth when in Heaven, than it is inevitable that evil will arise. There have been plenty of evil people who were devout christians and many great people who where not. Many have said only christians will be saved. So in that case people like Vlad the Impaler go to heaven.

Evil people could not be Christians. They may claim to be Christian but claiming to be Chrisitan and being evil does not make one a Christian. I think you and I disagree on what a Christian is. A Christian is someone who obeys the command of Jesus to love others.

salida · Mar 14, 2011

What is your definition of successful? Something you can understand? Of course there is free will in heaven-God doesn't take people as prisoners.

tothemoons · Mar 14, 2011

I'm curious, did you post this question because it is important in your own spiritual journey? If so, which part has remained unanswered, and what would it mean to you if it could completely be answered?

mulimulix · Mar 15, 2011

tothemoons said:
I'm curious, did you post this question because it is important in your own spiritual journey? If so, which part has remained unanswered, and what would it mean to you if it could completely be answered?

Well, I don't have a spiritual journey. I am an atheist, I am proud of it and don't see a reason to change nor desire to do so. However, this does not mean I am not willing to change, it is just at this present time with the evidence presented to me, I do not see a reason to think differently to what I do.

Forgetting the original question which has been answered in many different ways which Christians cannot agree on, the concept of heaven and hell does not make logical sense to me; it is completely unjust from a god which is described as the opposite of unjust. If someone answered it which completely satisfied me, I would be surprised, but more importantly, it would only fill in one piece of a giant jigsaw puzzle and in no way would it probably change my view. I simply posted this out of curiousity and, as I said, to see if that puzzle piece can be placed.

RobertMerton · Mar 15, 2011

can't really talk about logical reasoning when your premises are fallacious can you?

Spirko · Mar 15, 2011

mulimulix said:
The argument goes something like this:

Atheist: Why is there evil in the world?
Christian: Because god gave everyone free will
Atheist: Ok, so is there evil in heaven?
Christian: Of course not...
Atheist: Is there free will in heaven?
Christian: *Head explodes*

An answer to this would be helpful for the further understanding of Christian logic

The good thing about making up arguments like this is that you can ascribe ignorance to your opponent in order to make their belief system look foolish. It's dishonest, but it's pretty common.

The "Christian" in your premise sounds pretty ignorant of basic Christian doctrine.

First, if he was a Christian, he would know that there is not evil in the world because God gave man free will, but because because of Adam's sin.

Second, if he was a Christian, then he should have known that because man is spiritually dead until regenerated by the Holy Spirit, he has no "free will".

Third, if he was a Christian, then he would know that "free will" doesn't refer to the ability to do anything, but only to do those things that are in a person's nature. For instance, a fish may have the free will to decide to fly, but because a fish doesn't have the necessary wing structure, bone structure, or instinctive knowledge, it cannot fly. Likewise, even if an unregenerate man had the free will not to sin, his nature would not allow him not to sin.

Fourth, if he was a Christian, then he would know that those in Heaven are there because they have been regenerated by the Holy Spirit, crucified with Christ, and given a new nature that rebels against sin. Do they have the free will in Heaven to sin? Absolutely. Men do not become robots in Heaven. However, while they will have free will to sin, they will not have a sin nature that causes them to sin. They will be morally and spiritually perfect.

mulimulix · Mar 15, 2011

ck_psy said:
can't really talk about logical reasoning when your premises are fallacious can you?

My premises are fallacious?

Spirko said:
The good thing about making up arguments like this is that you can ascribe ignorance to your opponent in order to make their belief system look foolish. It's dishonest, but it's pretty common.

The "Christian" in your premise sounds pretty ignorant of basic Christian doctrine.

First, if he was a Christian, he would know that there is not evil in the world because God gave man free will, but because because of Adam's sin.

Second, if he was a Christian, then he should have known that because man is spiritually dead until regenerated by the Holy Spirit, he has no "free will".

Third, if he was a Christian, then he would know that "free will" doesn't refer to the ability to do anything, but only to do those things that are in a person's nature. For instance, a fish may have the free will to decide to fly, but because a fish doesn't have the necessary wing structure, bone structure, or instinctive knowledge, it cannot fly. Likewise, even if an unregenerate man had the free will not to sin, his nature would not allow him not to sin.

Fourth, if he was a Christian, then he would know that those in Heaven are there because they have been regenerated by the Holy Spirit, crucified with Christ, and given a new nature that rebels against sin. Do they have the free will in Heaven to sin? Absolutely. Men do not become robots in Heaven. However, while they will have free will to sin, they will not have a sin nature that causes them to sin. They will be morally and spiritually perfect.

Wow. First off, obviously I know not all Christians would answer it this way, which is kind of funny how Christians cannot agree on things as trivial as this, but I have seen MANY Christians answer it as I show above.

About Adam's sin, Adam used free will to commit the original sin, which means all evil originated from free will.

Walter Kovacs · Mar 15, 2011

This is an interesting take on free will/heaven:

"...to all eternity it lies in man's power to reject God... eternity signifies unending progress, a never-ceasing advance. As J. R. R. Tolkien has said, 'Roads go ever ever on' ...The Age to come is not simply a return to the beginning, a restoration of the original state of perfection in Paradise, but it is a fresh departure. There is to be a new heaven and a new earth; and the last things will be greater than the first. 'Here below", says Newman, "to live is to change and to be perfect is to have changed often.' But is this the case only here below? St. Gregory of Nyssa believed that even in heaven perfection is growth. In a fine paradox he says that the essence of perfection consists precisely in never becoming perfect, but always reaching forward to some higher perfection that lies beyond. Because God is infinite, this constant 'reaching forward' or epektasis, as the Greek Fathers termed it, proves limitless. The soul possesses God, and yet still seeks him; her joy is full, and yet grows always more intense. God grows ever nearer to us, yet he still remains the Other; we behold him face to face, yet we still continue to advance further and further into the divine mystery. Although strangers no longer, we do not cease to be pilgrims. We go forward 'from glory to glory' (2 Cor 3:18), and then to a glory that is greater still. Never in all eternity, shall we reach a point where we have accomplished all that there is to do, or discovered all that there is to know. 'Not only in this present age, but also in the Age to come,' says St. Irenaeus, 'God will always have something more to teach man, and man will always have something more to learn from God'" (Kallistos Ware, The Orthodox Way, pp 135-138).

elman · Mar 16, 2011

Walter Kovacs said:
This is an interesting take on free will/heaven:

"...to all eternity it lies in man's power to reject God... eternity signifies unending progress, a never-ceasing advance. As J. R. R. Tolkien has said, 'Roads go ever ever on' ...The Age to come is not simply a return to the beginning, a restoration of the original state of perfection in Paradise, but it is a fresh departure. There is to be a new heaven and a new earth; and the last things will be greater than the first. 'Here below", says Newman, "to live is to change and to be perfect is to have changed often.' But is this the case only here below? St. Gregory of Nyssa believed that even in heaven perfection is growth. In a fine paradox he says that the essence of perfection consists precisely in never becoming perfect, but always reaching forward to some higher perfection that lies beyond. Because God is infinite, this constant 'reaching forward' or epektasis, as the Greek Fathers termed it, proves limitless. The soul possesses God, and yet still seeks him; her joy is full, and yet grows always more intense. God grows ever nearer to us, yet he still remains the Other; we behold him face to face, yet we still continue to advance further and further into the divine mystery. Although strangers no longer, we do not cease to be pilgrims. We go forward 'from glory to glory' (2 Cor 3:18), and then to a glory that is greater still. Never in all eternity, shall we reach a point where we have accomplished all that there is to do, or discovered all that there is to know. 'Not only in this present age, but also in the Age to come,' says St. Irenaeus, 'God will always have something more to teach man, and man will always have something more to learn from God'" (Kallistos Ware, The Orthodox Way, pp 135-138).

Yes that is interesting.

A_maize · Mar 17, 2011

mulimulix said:
Atheist: Why is there evil in the world?
Christian: Because god gave everyone free will
Atheist: Ok, so is there evil in heaven?
Christian: Of course not...
Atheist: Is there free will in heaven?
Christian: *Head explodes*

My crack at this:

Atheist: Why is there evil in the world?
Christian: Because god gave everyone free will
Atheist: Ok, so is there evil in heaven?
Christian: Maybe, was Lucifer in heaven when he went Satan?
Atheist: Is there free will in heaven?
Christian: Maybe God will explain any and every question we have concerning evil, suffering, Jews, Bible, Jesus, etc etc. I'm guessing most will accept his explanations(since we are assuming God created logic and reasoning). Though maybe some will reject them.

Justsomedude · Mar 17, 2011

razeontherock · Mar 22, 2011

mulimulix said:
The argument goes something like this:

Atheist: Why is there evil in the world?
Christian: Because god gave everyone free will
Atheist: Ok, so is there evil in heaven?
Christian: Of course not...
Atheist: Is there free will in heaven?
Christian: *Head explodes*

An answer to this would be helpful for the further understanding of Christian logic

It's not logical to think we should know about "in heaven." Your line of thinking on display here shows you have not comprehended G-d's stated purpose for life here and now ...

oi_antz · Mar 25, 2011

Hi Mulimulix, this is actually extremely simple to answer so I'm not even going to bother reading the rest of the thread.

When we decide to believe a thought, we consider whether to believe "this" or "that". When we make that decision, there are various arguments toward "this" and various arguments toward "that". Let's say "this" is good and "that" is bad. "That" is bad because it is not fair to someone else, whereas "this" is good because there is no harm in it. The Holy Spirit will be telling you why you should be doing "this" and the devil will be telling you why you should do "that". This is why there was no death or suffering in the garden of Eden before Satan came along, because there was only the Holy Spirit telling us to do "this" and there was no devil telling us to do "that".

The revelation tells us that Satan went to heaven and archangel Michael defeated him so he fell back to earth, and eventually he is thrown into the bottomless pit. So one day when we are taken out of Satan's reach (either in heaven or the new earth), there will be no temptation to do "that" and thus, there is free will without sin.

Can you please let me know if this doesn't make sense?

Edit: remember that there is usually more than two options, so we might be considering a number of different "this's" and "that's", which is where the free will comes into play. Let me know if you need an example, but I think you'll be able to compute it by yourself if you want to

razeontherock · Mar 25, 2011

mulimulix said:
My premises are fallacious?

all evil originated from free will.

Anybody else's irony meter pegged?

Thanks Muli, I really needed a good laugh today.

razeontherock · Mar 25, 2011

Walter Kovacs said:
This is an interesting take on free will/heaven:

"...to all eternity it lies in man's power to reject God... eternity signifies unending progress, a never-ceasing advance. As J. R. R. Tolkien has said, 'Roads go ever ever on' ...The Age to come is not simply a return to the beginning, a restoration of the original state of perfection in Paradise, but it is a fresh departure. There is to be a new heaven and a new earth; and the last things will be greater than the first. 'Here below", says Newman, "to live is to change and to be perfect is to have changed often.' But is this the case only here below? St. Gregory of Nyssa believed that even in heaven perfection is growth. In a fine paradox he says that the essence of perfection consists precisely in never becoming perfect, but always reaching forward to some higher perfection that lies beyond. Because God is infinite, this constant 'reaching forward' or epektasis, as the Greek Fathers termed it, proves limitless. The soul possesses God, and yet still seeks him; her joy is full, and yet grows always more intense. God grows ever nearer to us, yet he still remains the Other; we behold him face to face, yet we still continue to advance further and further into the divine mystery. Although strangers no longer, we do not cease to be pilgrims. We go forward 'from glory to glory' (2 Cor 3:18), and then to a glory that is greater still. Never in all eternity, shall we reach a point where we have accomplished all that there is to do, or discovered all that there is to know. 'Not only in this present age, but also in the Age to come,' says St. Irenaeus, 'God will always have something more to teach man, and man will always have something more to learn from God'" (Kallistos Ware, The Orthodox Way, pp 135-138).

Thank you for posting that Walter, very uplifting!

Never heard one Christian answer this successfully...

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