Neutrality

[Hethatreadethit]

I know there are people that believe there is free will. Where exactly is that? Is there a place between righteousness and sin? Can a person live such a life that neither offends God or sinners. Spiritual neutrality, a place that must be on the beach of life where everybody is just happy to be there, and the blue skies are abundant and it must be after retirement because I don't know anybody who could hold a job and not have a bad or evil thought cross their mind.

Neutrality could be in vacation land but idol time is not always good for the wandering mind. Maybe one can find neutrality in a place where the mind is occupied with interest that captivate and intrigue our greater senses.

It is a wearisome job trying to stay neutral when a raging war is being fought between good and evil. Good luck trying to stay neutral because you only have to stumble one time and it's all over.

People who are free can think and do what they want. Slaves do only what their master tells them. Sinners and Righteous folks only do what their masters tell them. But neutralist have their own agenda. Are there any neutralist out there who would share with us what it is like to not be a servant to God or Satan? Did Adam have a chance to be a neutralist?

 

[~Anastasia~]

Free will does not equal neutrality.

It is the choice to chose one or the other. But one cannot stand in the middle between the two.

 

[~Anastasia~]

By the way, having an evil thought cross your mind might not be a sin. It is often a temptation. But it can be borne out of our own hearts, which is an indication that we need to become more like Christ.

But you are very correct that it is a battle, and one that we fight until we die, if we wish to become like Christ even in our thoughts (and that is what we should desire). It is a question that many Holy people, especially Christian monastics and hermits, have concerned themselves with over the centuries, and there are actually many tools we can use in fighting that battle.

But there is no middle ground. We don't get to abandon the race. We must run it to the end.

 

[Hethatreadethit]

Free will does not equal neutrality.

It is the choice to chose one or the other. But one cannot stand in the middle between the two.

Can't you ride the clutch, so I guess religion and cars are not the same thing?

I guess Switzerland is either good or bad but cannot ride the fence. Hitler woke up one morning and decided to be bad. But I don,t know anybody (other than the Christ) that woke up one morning and said they were going to be perfect and did it.

 

[Hethatreadethit]

Free will does not equal neutrality.

It is the choice to chose one or the other. But one cannot stand in the middle between the two.

Your wrong, I choose to be non-committal. I have free will and I am not going to be either good or bad because I have decided that that is what i'm going to be from here on out!

 

[~Anastasia~]

Your wrong, I choose to be non-committal. I have free will and I am not going to be either good or bad because I have decided that that is what i'm going to be from here on out!

Well, I'm only repeating what we have received from God. It is in the Scriptures. We don't get to make the rules, though we are given freedom to act within them as we choose. It is a dignity God has given to man.

I wish you well, though I have a concern. Why would you choose to reject good, and expect God to receive you? I'm not trying to be argumentative, I just truly don't understand. And why are you concerned with evil, not to choose against it?

Maybe I'm misunderstanding your point or question.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Can't you ride the clutch, so I guess religion and cars are not the same thing?

I guess Switzerland is either good or bad but cannot ride the fence. Hitler woke up one morning and decided to be bad. But I don,t know anybody (other than the Christ) that woke up one morning and said they were going to be perfect and did it.

These are worthwhile points, but I don't know if you're really interested in discussing them or just trying to make a point.

No, we don't decide to be perfect and simply do it. It is a spiritual struggle to become like Christ, through cooperation with help from God. But still, we don't become truly perfect. We can become changed though, transformed really, a very great deal. That is the goal of living a Christian life.

 

[Hethatreadethit]

Well, I'm only repeating what we have received from God. It is in the Scriptures. We don't get to make the rules, though we are given freedom to act within them as we choose. It is a dignity God has given to man.

You have to excuse me, I have not had the best of days. Can you point me to a scripture that shows man can be decisive between good and evil. I suspect Israel was given the choice and chose evil over good. Death prevailed from Adam to Christ, which indicates that there was a lot of bad decisions made.

Then there are scriptures such as:

Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

I think that Paul is saying that the flesh cannot obey God. Like a piece of bad meat, throw it away.

The Spirit obeys God. Fleshly man cannot and will not. Now, I'm not saying that you can't go out and walk some nice old lady across the street, and give lots of money to charity, and rescue homeless dogs, but i'm saying that you cannot do the will of God and please Him in the flesh. No flesh can. Our flesh is like a lead weight attached to a bird. Like when I was a child and made a plane out of boxes, and my uncle, a pilot, told me: It will never fly. How sad was that? The wings of man to choose to fly comes in the power of the Spirit of God to believe His Word. There is the ability to successfully choose and perform the good, of course through Christ my Lord.

You can will, but that does't mean you can accomplish it. Like a car (no I'm not a car man) you can put it in drive, but without gas, your going nowhere.

There are times I feel stuck in neutral, but God willing, He will pick my feet up, and lift my wings.

But lets face it, man was created a sinner, the weakness first appeared in Adam and Eve.

 

[~Anastasia~]

You have to excuse me, I have not had the best of days. Can you point me to a scripture that shows man can be decisive between good and evil. I suspect Israel was given the choice and chose evil over good. Death prevailed from Adam to Christ, which indicates that there was a lot of bad decisions made.

Then there are scriptures such as:

Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

I think that Paul is saying that the flesh cannot obey God. Like a piece of bad meat, throw it away.

The Spirit obeys God. Fleshly man cannot and will not. Now, I'm not saying that you can't go out and walk some nice old lady across the street, and give lots of money to charity, and rescue homeless dogs, but i'm saying that you cannot do the will of God and please Him in the flesh. No flesh can. Our flesh is like a lead weight attached to a bird. Like when I was a child and made a plane out of boxes, and my uncle, a pilot, told me: It will never fly. How sad was that? The wings of man to choose to fly comes in the power of the Spirit of God to believe His Word. There is the ability to successfully choose and perform the good, of course through Christ my Lord.

You can will, but that does't mean you can accomplish it. Like a car (no I'm not a car man) you can put it in drive, but without gas, your going nowhere.

There are times I feel stuck in neutral, but God willing, He will pick my feet up, and lift my wings.

But lets face it, man was created a sinner, the weakness first appeared in Adam and Eve.

Hmmmmm ....

Well, first of all, I'm very sorry to hear you've had a bad day.

I think it's easier to try to understand it in terms of what controls us. We are all spirit + flesh. We are born into a fallen Creation. The effects of sin, and temptation, are all around us. Our flesh naturally wants to please itself, and that usually means sin in some degree.

If we pay attention to what our flesh wants - we desire to have that new leaf blower our neighbor left unattended, we wish to have an affair with his wife, we think our place is more important so we push someone else aside to receive some benefit ourselves - we live according to the flesh.

If we pay attention to what our spirit (turned toward God) WANTS is to do, with the help of God, we try to do that instead. We put the neighbor's leaf blower safely away for him, we distract ourselves from his wife and refuse to imagine being with her, we help the other person go first and let them receive the benefit instead.

These are all moment-by-moment decisions. We can make 4 good decisions, fall into one bad one, make 2 more bad ones as a result, then become more determined and make 10 good ones. In a sense it doesn't matter. It's not about keeping score. It's not about buying salvation. It IS about what kind of person we are. And the person who respects his neighbor's property and puts other first, and acts that way most of the time, will become a better person with a heart more turned toward God than the one who gives into ungodly desires more often.



The weakness never goes away. But we can become stronger. However, your awareness of the weakness is a good thing. It can even be a blessing from God to be aware of it, if it helps us not to trust in our strength. Because we have none.

We should think that everything good we do is by the help of God, and thank Him for it. We should think everything bad we do is simply a result of our weakness, and repent, thank God for forgiveness, and ask if He will help us more next time.

I can't give you a Scripture that says man chooses between good and evil and will be forever fixed in his life that way, because that's not how it happens for us. (Angels have made that choice and are fixed - they either serve God or they rebelled.) But we are given the choice continually. Yes, we may fail, but we simply get up and try again.

We cannot expect it to end until the restoration of all things (or for each of us personally, when we stand before God after we die).

I hope I'm understanding you better. Forgive me please if I'm not.

 

[Hethatreadethit]

These are worthwhile points, but I don't know if you're really interested in discussing them or just trying to make a point.

No, we don't decide to be perfect and simply do it. It is a spiritual struggle to become like Christ, through cooperation with help from God. But still, we don't become truly perfect. We can become changed though, transformed really, a very great deal. That is the goal of living a Christian life.

This is my first go around with the perfection issue and I don't know what it is like. This is my one and only shot to get it right. I don,t think I have made the best decisions in the past. The old man sometimes bogs me down. I find that faith is a measure of God's Word with understanding that wars against anti-faith and that is the gravity of the world pulling away from Christ. That must be the closest place to a neutrality, the pulls of the flesh vs the Spirit. Like the tide of the ocean, it rises and falls, the love in the Spirit must pull us forward.

 

[~Anastasia~]

This is my first go around with the perfection issue and I don't know what it is like. This is my one and only shot to get it right. I don,t think I have made the best decisions in the past. The old man sometimes bogs me down. I find that faith is a measure of God's Word with understanding that wars against anti-faith and that is the gravity of the world pulling away from Christ. That must be the closest place to a neutrality, the pulls of the flesh vs the Spirit. Like the tide of the ocean, it rises and falls, the love in the Spirit must pull us forward.

Well, I still don't really understand what you mean by neutrality.

But as far as bad decisions in the past, remember the parable of the Prodigal Son. Even after he insulted his father by demanding his inheritance while he was still living, then went out and blew it all, and hit rock bottom, his father was still watching for him to return, RAN to greet him, fully restored him, and sacrificed to throw a party in celebration. This is to illustrate how God responds when we return to him, regardless of how badly we messed up.


And I'm not sure which "perfection" you mean. Very often the word (if you're getting it from Scripture) actually means to be "mature, full grown in Christ".

We do not become "perfect" in regards to NEVER sinning, in thought, word, action, or attitude, intentionally or accidenally, knowingly or unknowingly. That would be perfection, and no one gets there. This is why St. John the Beloved disciple said such things as "if we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive" and also "if we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the Truth is not in us".

We are expected to repent of our sins, and ask forgiveness. Not become perfect. Have you ever thought, that if we HAD to be perfect to "be saved" ... where is the grace of God? Wouldn't that mean we are "earning " our salvation? We cannot do that - it is impossible. Salvation is the gift of God.

Our job is to have LIVING faith, which means we will have works, and we will cooperate with the grace of God, and this matures/completes us. But we are not expected to become Christ Himself on earth to the degree of perfection. Only Christ has ever done that.

 

[Hethatreadethit]

The weakness never goes away. But we can become stronger. However, your awareness of the weakness is a good thing. It can even be a blessing from God to be aware of it, if it helps us not to trust in our strength. Because we have none.

Because of our weakness and inabilities: Christ said:

Mat 5:33 Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:
Mat 5:34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:
Mat 5:35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.
Mat 5:36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.
Mat 5:37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.

This set of scriptures does't bode well for free will thinkers.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Because of our weakness and inabilities: Christ said:

Mat 5:33 Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:
Mat 5:34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:
Mat 5:35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.
Mat 5:36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.
Mat 5:37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.

This set of scriptures does't bode well for free will thinkers.

Hmmmm.

I don't see anything sinister for believing in free will here?

It simply means that to SWEAR something will happen or you will do a thing is pride. You might break your oath through weakness, or if you get sick, or die, or the horse that was going to pull your wagon broke its leg.

Say what you plan to do, "God willing" and then try to do it. Because something you don't know about could prevent you, and then you'd be an oath breaker (unintentionally).

 

[Hethatreadethit]

Hmmmm.

I don't see anything sinister for believing in free will here?

It simply means that to SWEAR something will happen or you will do a thing is pride. You might break your oath through weakness, or if you get sick, or die, or the horse that was going to pull your wagon broke its leg.

Say what you plan to do, "God willing" and then try to do it. Because something you don't know about could prevent you, and then you'd be an oath breaker (unintentionally).

For free willers, neutrality is the place that exist before one decides to go left or right, undetermined,
and I believe Christ was saying that it is not for us to determine the future for it is in Gods hands. So don't think you can fulfill your own destiny, you do not have that freedom of chose, God's will shall be done , not ours.

 

[~Anastasia~]

For free willers, neutrality is the place that exist before one decides to go left or right, undetermined,
and I believe Christ was saying that it is not for us to determine the future for it is in Gods hands. So don't think you can fulfill your own destiny, you do not have that freedom of chose, God's will shall be done , not ours.

Ah, well thank you for explaining your thinking.

But that sounds more like really hard-line Calvinism ... God will save you or won't, dependent upon His whim and nothing you do or don't. It kind of makes living our lives and all we suffer through pointless though, don't you think? If we are all just puppets, what does that say about God? Wouldn't a LOVING God in that case just create people "saved" and keep them with Him?

Anyway, I know that some people believe that, but it flies in the face of what Christ and the Apostles taught and their first disciples received ... there are volumes written between Church leaders who were direct disciples of the Apostles thst can help with disputed doctrines (and Calvinism was disputed from the time it was introduced a few centuries ago, and it wasn't even THAT hard-line at the time).

You are free to believe what you like (part of that free will you know ) but it simply isn't that darkly discouraging. God knows our frame, that we are weak. All we must do is try, cooperate with Him, and He will provide the grace. Refusing to try or cooperate is saying no though, and that's a worse position.

I pray you find peace and light.

 

[Hethatreadethit]

Ah, well thank you for explaining your thinking.

But that sounds more like really hard-line Calvinism ... God will save you or won't, dependent upon His whim and nothing you do or don't. It kind of makes living our lives and all we suffer through pointless though, don't you think? If we are all just puppets, what does that say about God? Wouldn't a LOVING God in that case just create people "saved" and keep them with Him?

God is not out to just create people, but rather those who are likeminded

I know that some people believe that, but it flies in the face of what Christ and the Apostles taught and their first disciples received ... there are volumes written between Church leaders who were direct disciples of the Apostles thst can help with disputed doctrines (and Calvinism was disputed from the time it was introduced a few centuries ago, and it wasn't even THAT hard-line at the time).

You are free to believe what you like (part of that free will you know ) but it simply isn't that darkly discouraging. God knows our frame, that we are weak. All we must do is try, cooperate with Him, and He will provide the grace. Refusing to try or cooperate is saying no though, and that's a worse position.

I pray you find peace and light.

Not a calvinist, nope, in fact not really anybody, just a man with hope and a little faith. I don't believe there is a free will, but man is led to this thought of which is a deception to feel your in control when really your being controlled by your flesh. Man is not in the driver seat and though like the actor, sergeant Schultz in Hogans Heroes . We would like to be ignorant of anything greater than what we can perceive and avoid any circumstances that are beyond our convenience. In other words ignorance is bliss. Schultz would say: " I see nothing." to avoid confrontation. With Christ, there will be no hiding from the will of God. You will either follow the will of God with those who are transforming or be as those seeking to do it their own way. So I say this: There is One body, One will, and One way. Neutral is a position of those who want to avoid the inevitable. We must transform to do His will:

Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

So if you don't desire to be likeminded as Christ it's best to stay or find a neutral place, seeking the perfect hiding place from a neutral observatory.

And when God has put His mind in man, then will man make vows according to God's will. (Covenants are a vow).

Isa 19:21 And the LORD shall be known to Egypt, and the Egyptians shall know the LORD in that day, and shall do sacrifice and oblation; yea, they shall vow a vow unto the LORD, and perform it.

The WILL can only be performed when there is, "a know how to Do".

When God returns to maintenance His Altar (the Earth), will there be a wisdom to receive it. But the light will fill the Earth. And all men will praise God and fulfill their vows. For they shall all know Him.

And there will be those who praise God, whose minds will praise God for His good works. They will learn His song:

Psa 61:8 So will I sing praise unto thy name for ever, that I may daily perform my vows.

You see, the covenant, and the daily sacrifice is the fulfillment of those who Praise God and do HIS WILL.

Rev 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

They will not be singing about free will.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Yes, we struggle against the flesh. Paul has passages where he describes his struggle as well. He also tells us of putting his flesh in subjection, disciplining it, in order that we can know it's possible. This is what we are expected to do - follow his example.

One thing I don't understand though?

So if you don't desire to be likeminded as Christ it's best to stay or find a neutral place, seeking the perfect hiding place from a neutral observatory.

Are you saying (since you say you want to be neutral) that you don't desire to be likeminded with Christ? Why not?

And you are right that in the life of the age to come, because we won't have the same flesh to struggle against, nor temptations to sin or rebel against God, we won't have that choice to make anymore.

 

[Hethatreadethit]

Yes, we struggle against the flesh. Paul has passages where he describes his struggle as well. He also tells us of putting his flesh in subjection, disciplining it, in order that we can know it's possible. This is what we are expected to do - follow his example.

One thing I don't understand though?


Are you saying (since you say you want to be neutral) that you don't desire to be likeminded with Christ? Why not?

And you are right that in the life of the age to come, because we won't have the same flesh to struggle against, nor temptations to sin or rebel against God, we won't have that choice to make anymore.

Not really saying I want to be neutral, I'm just putting this out here because it sum ups a way of thinking a lot of people have when it comes to religion: A neutral observer or unobserver.

 

[HighCherub]

There is no middle ground

Matthew 12:30
"Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters"

 

[Hethatreadethit]

There is no middle ground

Matthew 12:30
"Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters"

A reckon there is a lot of room to move around?