Neo-Darwinian evolution is in trouble INSIDE the scientific community

Ronald · Aug 3, 2017

Subduction Zone said:
Please, you made the comment that demonstrated your lack of knowledge. Don't complain when a simple example shows that you are wrong.

And there is no "evidence of design". But then you do not understand the nature of evidence. Most creationists don't. They can't afford to learn what is and what is not evidence.

You still have plenty of time to learn.

You cannot show any evidence. Even in the fossil record, no transitional forms, just different kinds that became extinct. Come on, you've heard the one where a lizard was on top of a branch and jumped off the branch to catch a bug, fell down and frayed his scales and eventually those frayed scales became feathers and one day he flew away. LOL Even Darwin had his doubts about the fossil record thinking they would eventually find millions of examples of transitional forms: "Where are they", he asked. All you have is a massive graveyard caused by a massive flood with dinosaurs AND animals buried and preserved in mud that hardened in many layers of mud over a period that only took a few weeks. Then the rain stopped and the water receded and the Ark settled on Mt. Ararat. You're laughing now, it's OK. You don't have to look at the past to figure out what's happening right now.

Subduction Zone · Aug 3, 2017

Ronald said:
You cannot show any evidence. Even in the fossil record, no transitional forms, just different kinds that became extinct. Come on, you've heard the one where a lizard was on top of a branch and jumped off the branch to catch a bug, fell down and frayed his scales and eventually those frayed scales became feathers and one day he flew away. LOL Even Darwin had his doubts about the fossil record thinking they would eventually find millions of examples of transitional forms: "Where are they", he asked. All you have is a massive graveyard caused by a massive flood with dinosaurs AND animals buried and preserved in mud that hardened in many layers of mud over a period that only took a few weeks. Then the rain stopped and the water receded and the Ark settled on Mt. Ararat. You're laughing now, it's OK. You don't have to look at the past to figure out what's happening right now.

Wrong again. But then you do not know what is and what is not evidence. You admitted to a lack of education in this matter and it is obvious.

And there are countless transitional forms in the fossil record. So many that most fossils are thought to be transitional these days.

And yes, Darwin knew that the fossil record was rather scant. Please note the word WAS. That was over 150 years ago. Paleontology was in its infancy. We have found countless fossils since then.

You have been lied to. You are listening to liars. You should be interested in the truth.

klutedavid · Aug 3, 2017

Hello SZ.

Puzzled by your reply?

Are you serious?

Yes.

If not you are being dishonest.

Don't make this personal.

If you are serious you should know that DNA does not survive that long.

Your simply saying that DNA analysis is of no use in understanding a whales evolution.

Your next comment narrows our focus.

DNA still tells us who the whale's closest relatives are. It does not, as yet, tell us how.

The closest relatives is general statement, why not be more specific SZ.

Read the following.

Now the tide has turned. In the space of just three decades, a flood of new fossils has filled in the gaps in our knowledge to turn the origin of whales into one of the best-documented examples of large-scale evolutionary change in the fossil record.
(www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/how-did-whales-evolve)

That's right SZ, one of the best documented examples of evolutionary change.

Now deliver this evidence SZ. I'm not asking for the evidence to support a species that is not well documented.

Picking and choosing is not proper when one's education is lacking.

Science by definition is all about evidence, the evolutionary science is overwhelming?

Show me the evidence for the evolution of the whale.

That would leave out the theory of evolution. It is supported by mountains of evidence.

Of course a whales evolutionary tree will be supported by mountains of evidence.

No, this is just an example of special pleading by you. Not knowing all of the steps of evolution of an organism does not mean that there is "scant evidence for evolution".

Deliver SZ, show me real science.

Because you have a strange belief that the fact that you are evolved threatens your faith, more than likely. Literalists make the error of thinking that if one part of the Bible is false then the whole Bible is false and that is not necessarily the case.

I would not be rattled by the idea that you are related to a baboon, not at all SZ. Don't assume that I reject all scientific claims, yet I am haunted by the idea that we have been set up by God. I am more and more becoming convinced, that all is not what it seems to be. There are too many scientific unknowns imbedded in a scientific world of facts and figures.

Very good SZ, agree that any part of the scripture being false, does not necessarily imply that any other parts are false. The real core of the scripture and the subject of all the scripture are the messianic prophecies and the matching revelation of the Christ.
That is the real scripture, the faultless evidence and proof, buried in a book of dubious exaggeration and a faulty Genesis account.

Ronald · Aug 3, 2017

Subduction Zone said:
Wrong again. But then you do not know what is and what is not evidence. You admitted to a lack of education in this matter and it is obvious.

And there are countless transitional forms in the fossil record. So many that most fossils are thought to be transitional these days.

And yes, Darwin knew that the fossil record was rather scant. Please note the word WAS. That was over 150 years ago. Paleontology was in its infancy. We have found countless fossils since then.

You have been lied to. You are listening to liars. You should be interested in the truth.

Jesus didn't lie to me! You have been lied to. You are following darkness. The TOE is packed with guessing and lies. So back at ya. Ah ... what's the use, there is a wall between us, more like veil that causes blindness.

Subduction Zone · Aug 3, 2017

klutedavid said:
Hello SZ.

Puzzled by your reply?

Yes.

Don't make this personal.

Then quit making everything personal.

Your simply saying that DNA analysis is of no use in understanding a whales evolution.

Nope, I pointed out that it tells us the whales closest living relative:

The evolution of whales

Your next comment narrows our focus.

The closest relatives is general statement, why not be more specific SZ.

If you really want specifics you need to limit your posts. I think that I already told you this.

Read the following.

Now the tide has turned. In the space of just three decades, a flood of new fossils has filled in the gaps in our knowledge to turn the origin of whales into one of the best-documented examples of large-scale evolutionary change in the fossil record.
(www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/how-did-whales-evolve)

That's right SZ, one of the best documented examples of evolutionary change.

Now deliver this evidence SZ. I'm not asking for the evidence to support a species that is not well documented.

Science by definition is all about evidence, the evolutionary science is overwhelming?

Show me the evidence for the evolution of the whale.

I don't think you would understand it yet.

Of course a whales evolutionary tree will be supported by mountains of evidence.

No, the totality of evolution is supported by mountains of evidence.

Deliver SZ, show me real science.

You need to learn the basics first.

I would not be rattled by the idea that you are related to a baboon, not at all SZ. Don't assume that I reject all scientific claims, yet I am haunted by the idea that we have been set up by God. I am more and more becoming convinced, that all is not what it seems to be. There are too many scientific unknowns imbedded in a scientific world of facts and figures.

You should not word it that way. You should say that you would not be rattled by the idea that you are related to a baboon.

You are using the fact that you are related to a baboon as an insult. And I am not making assumptions. You should not make that claim about me.

Very good SZ, agree that any part of the scripture being false, does not necessarily imply that any other parts are false. The real core of the scripture and the subject of all the scripture are the messianic prophecies and the matching revelation of the Christ.
That is the real scripture, the faultless evidence and proof, buried in a book of dubious exaggeration and a faulty Genesis account.

I would not put too much stock in the so called "messianic prophecies". Many of them are simply reinterpreting the Bible after the fact. That does not make them prophecies. If you want some education in those you really should talk to a Jew.

But if you can admit that Genesis is not needed for your faith you may be able to drop your prejudice and learn.

Heissonear · Aug 3, 2017

Ronald said:
Wow, there you go again. You guys will bring up fire, a snow flake or a crystal and say this doesn't take an intelligent Designer. Please, you can't compare these things to living organisms. The fact that no two snowflakes are alike is kind of unique though. The beauty in creation is fascinating and also evidence for design. Why beauty? Why are living things esthetically pleasing and very desirable? God also designed you with an empty compartment that only He can fill. People try to fill this missing piece in their lives with everything from fancy cars, education, jobs, money, people, drugs or alcohol but they never can. Only God can satisfy. You will not be satisfied with your life, something will be missing.

A God shaped vacuum. People try many things to fill such vacuum but fail. Only He can fill it.

And nothing and nobody compares to Him.

He is always been near, watching everything.

So many stay blind to Him, and devoid of Him.

I was once blind and devoid of Him, and an ardent promoter of Evolution. There is Hope. People can turn to Him and the void begin to be filled.

Speedwell · Aug 3, 2017

Ronald said:
Jesus didn't lie to me! You have been lied to. You are following darkness. The TOE is packed with guessing and lies. So back at ya. Ah ... what's the use, there is a wall between us, more like veil that causes blindness.

So help us penetrate it. There are your fellow Christians here who believe in their salvation in Christ. What is it that we don't see?

Ronald · Aug 3, 2017

majj27 said:
Nah, there's no reason to think that Virgo is what is meant by "a woman in the sky". It looks like this:

...and that sure doesn't look like any woman I've ever known. If you take Revelation literally, it says nothing about "stars in the vague sort of shape of a woman" it says "woman". Besides, if 9/23/17 is halfway through this Tribulation time, it's been an awfully laid-back sort of catastrophic thing, as far as these sort of things go.

How about this woman?

If you lived in any Muslim country where terrorists are chopping of the heads of Christians and they are fleeing for their lives (millions) you might think you were in a Great Tribulation.

Heissonear · Aug 3, 2017

Subduction Zone said:
Then quit making everything personal.

Nope, I pointed out that it tells us the whales closest living relative:

The evolution of whales

If you really want specifics you need to limit your posts. I think that I already told you this.

I don't think you would understand it yet.

No, the totality of evolution is supported by mountains of evidence.

You need to learn the basics first.

You should not word it that way. You should say that you would not be rattled by the idea that you are related to a baboon.

You are using the fact that you are related to a baboon as an insult. And I am not making assumptions. You should not make that claim about me.

I would not put too much stock in the so called "messianic prophecies". Many of them are simply reinterpreting the Bible after the fact. That does not make them prophecies. If you want some education in those you really should talk to a Jew.

But if you can admit that Genesis is not needed for your faith you may be able to drop your prejudice and learn.

Try as you may but Evolution still remains a belief, it is based on faith. I learned this while being an educated Evolutionist.

Ronald · Aug 3, 2017

Speedwell said:
So help us penetrate it. There are your fellow Christians here who believe in their salvation in Christ. What is it that we don't see?

If you have preached to, shared with, reasoned or grappled with staunch atheist/evolutionists, after a while you give up and like Jesus said, "If they don't listen, brush the dirt off your sandals and move on."

klutedavid · Aug 3, 2017

Subduction Zone said:
Then quit making everything personal.

Your claiming your evolution from a baboon, I am not making that claim you are.
That is not a swipe at you, that is your evolutionary history not mine.

Nope, I pointed out that it tells us the whales closest living relative:

You need to define your usage of 'closest relative', what a broad phrase that is.

The evolution of whales

Do you firmly support the evolution of the whale or not?

If you cannot strongly demonstrate the evolution of the whale, then what I am I to think about evolutionary theory?

You cannot say that the, 'mountains of evidence', cannot even demonstrate the actual evolution of any one species. That is simply saying that evolutionary theory is a scientific generalization, on the larger scale it appears valid but no in any specific way.

You need to learn the basics first.

What could be more basic than you explaining the evolution of the whale.

You should not word it that way. You should say that you would not be rattled by the idea that you are related to a baboon.

Negative SZ, your claiming your descent from tree swinging apes.

You are using the fact that you are related to a baboon as an insult. And I am not making assumptions. You should not make that claim about me.

No claim by me SZ, that is evolutionary science.

I would not put too much stock in the so called "messianic prophecies". Many of them are simply reinterpreting the Bible after the fact.

Incorrect.

That does not make them prophecies.

Oh yes they are.

If you want some education in those you really should talk to a Jew.

The Jews wrote the scripture, I already know what some of them think about Jesus.

But if you can admit that Genesis is not needed for your faith you may be able to drop your prejudice and learn.

I have stated already that I do not regard the early chapters of Genesis as valid.

I am not a young earth creationist nor do I believe in an old earth. I have issues with both of these extremist camps.

Heissonear · Aug 3, 2017

Speedwell said:
So help us penetrate it. There are your fellow Christians here who believe in their salvation in Christ. What is it that we don't see?

Do you want to walk in newness of life, and turn from bondage to constant desires to sin, because of your flesh nature?

Baptism is symbolic to a watery grave, that when you are baptized you lay the old person you have been in fleshly bondage to sin into the water through a minister, that then as you are raised up out of the water you seek to be a new man through His doing, through His Spirit and Power.

If you are truely ready to leave sin behind then you turn to Him by faith and seek baptism and the reality it represents.

Repentance from walking in sin cannot be half-hearted. It should be earnest desire to walk free from sin. If you seek Him and purity before Him then you will find Him.

Seek to put off the old to put on the new.

He is Holy. The vacuum will start to fill by earnstly seeking walking in purity before Him. The essence of baptism your starting point. He will if you will.

Take Him at His Word. He will if you will. Are you ready to change?

klutedavid · Aug 3, 2017

Astrophile said:
What you are asking is tantamount to saying that you will only accept that a person is descended from ancestors who lived at the same time as Aristotle if they can give the names and life-histories of all their ancestors back to the 4th century BC. The demand is absurdly excessive; a minute's thought will show that all of us must have had ancestors who were contemporary with Aristotle, and the same simple argument applies to evolutionary ancestors.

Hello Astrophile.

Sorry if I do not reply to all posts, this is a very active thread and I do not have the time to respond.

We can with the help of DNA actually compare the DNA from buried corpses, from thousands of years ago to present populations. That is hard science and reliable, I accept that science. This scientific endeavor lies within the domain of verifiable evidence.

If you then find a monkey skull from say a hundred million years ago, and place it next to a modern human skull. Then I will have issues with that underlying belief system, give me the DNA! I need a method of validating the claim other than the dogma of the evolutionary belief system.

pitabread · Aug 3, 2017

Ronald said:
Pitabread is man-made. It didn't happen by chance. It took a baker to put together ingredients and cook it. Yet ya'll think life happened by chance and then starting out as one cell, decided to become more complex and branch off into thousands upon thousands of unique animals and plants and the humans! Yet pitabread cannot come about by itself.

Thank you for the non-sequitur response which has absolutely nothing to do with what I wrote.

However, it confirms the long-running pattern that every time I bring up applied evolutionary biology, creationists having zero answer for it.

Subduction Zone · Aug 3, 2017

Heissonear said:
Try as you may but Evolution still remains a belief, it is based on faith. I learned this while being an educated Evolutionist.

Nope, but then you just bleat and run.

Would you like to learn what evidence is? It is a very good starting point.

Subduction Zone · Aug 3, 2017

klutedavid said:
Hello Astrophile.

Sorry if I do not reply to all posts, this is a very active thread and I do not have the time to respond.

We can with the help of DNA actually compare the DNA from buried corpses, from thousands of years ago to present populations. That is hard science and reliable, I accept that science. This scientific endeavor lies within the domain of verifiable evidence.

If you then find a monkey skull from say a hundred million years ago, and place it next to a modern human skull. Then I will have issues with that underlying belief system, give me the DNA! I need a method of validating the claim other than the dogma of the evolutionary belief system.

A stawman argument is never valid and is dishonest. Why did you just make one?

Subduction Zone · Aug 3, 2017

Ronald said:
Jesus didn't lie to me! You have been lied to. You are following darkness. The TOE is packed with guessing and lies. So back at ya. Ah ... what's the use, there is a wall between us, more like veil that causes blindness.

Jesus never confirmed the Adam and Eve myth. He used poetic language quite often. Your claims that I was talking about did not come from Jesus, they came from others. And they lied to you. You listened to liars.

But until you learn you will have no way to tell whether they were lying or not.

pitabread · Aug 3, 2017

Heissonear said:
Try as you may but Evolution still remains a belief, it is based on faith. I learned this while being an educated Evolutionist.

If evolution is just a faith, then explain applied phylogenetics? Since you have real world companies applying evolutionary biology, how does it make any sense if it's just a "faith"?

klutedavid · Aug 3, 2017

Subduction Zone said:
A stawman argument is never valid and is dishonest. Why did you just make one?

Hello Subduction Zone.

Verifiable evidence and not inference is the currency of real science.

Subduction Zone · Aug 3, 2017

klutedavid said:
Hello Subduction Zone.

Verifiable evidence and not inference is the currency of real science.

Correct. And we have that a plenty.

You do realize that there is a big difference between demonstrating that evolution is correct and little nit picking questions about evolution, don't you?

Neo-Darwinian evolution is in trouble INSIDE the scientific community

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