Neo-Darwinian evolution is in trouble INSIDE the scientific community

Subduction Zone · Aug 3, 2017

Ronald said:
I don't have time, got an appointment in heaven in a couple months.

Sorry to hear that.

But you should realize that when you make claims about others, as you have about scientists, and cannot support your claims, that is technically a breaking of the Ninth Commandment even if you did not intend to deceive. I may not like an idea, but that is not an excuse to make false statement about the people that came up with that idea.

You should take some comfort in the fact that you are an evolved being does not refute Christianity, just the stories of Genesis.

Subduction Zone · Aug 3, 2017

Ronald said:
Nature selects beneficial defects over time, pieces them together and whalla , from slime to Marilyn Monroe.

Extremely oversimplified but yes. And no "thought" is needed. It is related to the way that a fire grows. No thought is needed by the fire to burn faster to consume more fuel. Fire merely consumes what material there is t be consumed.

klutedavid · Aug 3, 2017

majj27 said:
Not to mention that even if a god was assumed to be the cause of the universe, now we get into a REAL fight over which god did it. I mean, there's around 33 Vedic gods, and supposed 10 million unknown ones for each known one, so now we've got a pool of 330,000,000 possibilities to go from. And that's just from one single religion.

And then the arguments start over whether Odin could kick Shiva's hiney or if Manabozho could totally take Enki in a fair fight. Good times, man. Good times.

Hello majj27.

There are endless debates in science about which species, belongs where in the hierarchy of the evolutionary tree. Sometimes these debates are very heated and more so, when the evidence is more sparse.

Subduction Zone · Aug 3, 2017

klutedavid said:
Hello Obliquinaut.

Thanks for your reply.

I do from time to time look at some links.

If you have the DNA of Pakicetus, I will check it's DNA against the current whale DNA.
Give me the genetic data.

Are you serious? If not you are being dishonest. If you are serious you should know that DNA does not survive that long. This is a case where the fossils tell us how life evolved. There are some steps in evolution where DNA tells us the story. DNA still tells us who the whale's closest relatives are. It does not, as yet, tell us how.

I do not reject all scientific discoveries or explanations.

Picking and choosing is not proper when one's education is lacking.

I have a slight interest in science.

There are scientific disciplines which I dare not question, there are also scientific areas that are wide open to criticism.

Where I experience issues with science is when science makes claims, these claims are usually based on scant evidence.

That would leave out the theory of evolution. It is supported by mountains of evidence.

For example, the evolution of the whale.

No, this is just an example of special pleading by you. Not knowing all of the steps of evolution of an organism does not mean that there is "scant evidence for evolution".

Of course I agree with that statement, historical Christianity is a disaster.

They are two different entities, science and religion. They cannot be compared with one another. Science must cite the evidence, science must test the claim, science cannot without substantial cause, speculate on associations in the data.

I do not argue about the validity of electronics, chemistry, or very often with geology.
But I do see problems with the interpretation of the fossil record, why is that?

Because you have a strange belief that the fact that you are evolved threatens your faith, more than likely. Literalists make the error of thinking that if one part of the Bible is false then the whole Bible is false and that is not necessarily the case.

Subduction Zone · Aug 3, 2017

klutedavid said:
Hello majj27.

There are endless debates in science about which species, belongs where in the hierarchy of the evolutionary tree. Sometimes these debates are very heated and more so, when the evidence is more sparse.

Yup, that happens at times.

So what?

Ronald · Aug 3, 2017

Jimmy D said:
Oh dear, this is demonstrably wrong, not a good start. Have you heard of Biologos (for example) or maybe the Catholic Church?

Have you heard of LOGOS?
"In the beginning was the WORD and WORD was with God and the WORD was God ... Through Him all things were made; without Him nothing was made. In Him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in darkness, but the darkness has not understood it." John 1:1-4
"God said, let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground." Gen. 1:26
If you seek God, you will find Him. If you argue against His existence, you will not.

Here's something you can jot down, a prophetic scripture written about 1922 years ago, Rev. 12:1. It is positioned right in the middle of what the Bible calls the Great Tribulation Period/Judgment Day. This is a period of time with the most devastating catastrophic events occurring ever before that will destroy 2/3 of the population. This scripture describes a constellation that will appear on 9-23-17. It is Virgo, clothed by the sun, with the moon at her feet and a crown of 12 stars around her head. It's a rare occurrence that hasn't happened since the birth of Christ. The Wise Men followed a star ... you know the story. Well it most likely was the planet Jupiter, call the King planet, that moves into Virgo's womb, moves around for about 9 months then exists down through her legs. You see, symbolically the woman is Israel and the child is Jesus in scripture but literally it is a sign in the heavens. The Bible uses the sun, moon and stars for not only days, months and years but also for signs. (Gen. 1:14)
So 9-23-17 falls within the Feast of the Trumpets, a Jewish holiday that ends on the Day of Atonement. Maybe this will be the evidence ya'll need ... of course it might be too late?

Ronald · Aug 3, 2017

Subduction Zone said:
Extremely oversimplified but yes. And no "thought" is needed. It is related to the way that a fire grows. No thought is needed by the fire to burn faster to consume more fuel. Fire merely consumes what material there is t be consumed.

You have the audacity to compare fire with life, the process of growth? Wow, talk about a lame comparison.

Subduction Zone · Aug 3, 2017

Ronald said:
Have you heard of LOGOS?
"In the beginning was the WORD and WORD was with God and the WORD was God ... Through Him all things were made; without Him nothing was made. In Him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in darkness, but the darkness has not understood it." John 1:1-4
"God said, let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground." Gen. 1:26
If you seek God, you will find Him. If you argue against His existence, you will not.

Here's something you can jot down, a prophetic scripture written about 1922 years ago, Rev. 12:1. It is positioned right in the middle of what the Bible calls the Great Tribulation Period/Judgment Day. This is a period of time with the most devastating catastrophic events occurring ever before that will destroy 2/3 of the population. This scripture describes a constellation that will appear on 9-23-17. It is Virgo, clothed by the sun, with the moon at her feet and a crown of 12 stars around her head. It's a rare occurrence that hasn't happened since the birth of Christ. The Wise Men followed a star ... you know the story. Well it most likely was the planet Jupiter, call the King planet, that moves into Virgo's womb, moves around for about 9 months then exists down through her legs. You see, symbolically the woman is Israel and the child is Jesus in scripture but literally it is a sign in the heavens. The Bible uses the sun, moon and stars for not only days, months and years but also for signs. (Gen. 1:14)
So 9-23-17 falls within the Feast of the Trumpets, a Jewish holiday that ends on the Day of Atonement. Maybe this will be the evidence ya'll need ... of course it might be too late?

Actually the "follow the star" tale makes no sense. A star will not give precise location. At best it gives a constantly changing direction.

The Sun is a star. What would your path look like if you followed it all day?

Ronald · Aug 3, 2017

sfs said:
Your misunderstanding of evolutionary biology -- which is impressive, by the way -- does not reduce its value as a science. Like any science, biology does not provide hope, purpose, or future. Those have to come from elsewhere.

How am I misunderstanding nature selecting beneficial mutations over time to evolve a living organism? Theory of "Macro Evolution" is a fraud. You are the ones confused.
And where does your hope, purpose come from? What do you look forward to when you are on your death bed and then why did you accumulate all that you did to just lose it for yourself. Don't say to pass it on, I'm talking about you, going through all the motions of these life experiences, learning, forming relationships only to lose everything!

Subduction Zone · Aug 3, 2017

Ronald said:
How am I misunderstanding nature selecting beneficial mutations over time to evolve a living organism? Theory of "Macro Evolution" is a fraud. You are the ones confused.
And where does your hope, purpose come from? What do you look forward to when you are on your death bed and then why did you accumulate all that you did to just lose it for yourself. Don't say to pass it on, I'm talking about you, going through all the motions of these life experiences, learning, forming relationships only to lose everything!

Now, now. You are openly violating the Ninth Commandment by making claims that you cannot support. You already admitted that you do not understand this nor do you claim to have the time to study this science, though you should be able to learn the basics in rather short period of time.

And railing about where others get their "hope" from is pointless. You don't like the fact that others do not need to be told to have a purpose for life. Many of us see relying on someone else for one's purpose as rather immature behavior.

Ronald · Aug 3, 2017

Subduction Zone said:
Actually the "follow the star" tale makes no sense. A star will not give precise location. At best it gives a constantly changing direction.

The Sun is a star. What would your path look like if you followed it all day?

It wasn't a star they were following, it was very likely the planet Jupiter which moves travels into the constellation Virgo and moves out of it. Navigating by the stars has been used for awhile and so this planet gave them a specific location. Otherwise it was an angel, not a star, and that is another explanation as well.

Obliquinaut · Aug 3, 2017

klutedavid said:
I have a slight interest in science.

What about those of us who have dedicated our lives to science? Do we have any say in how science is actually done?

There are scientific disciplines which I dare not question, there are also scientific areas that are wide open to criticism.

What is your background such that you can make the differentiation?

Where I experience issues with science is when science makes claims, these claims are usually based on scant evidence.

And many on here have noted that evolution is not one of those.

They are two different entities, science and religion. They cannot be compared with one another. Science must cite the evidence, science must test the claim, science cannot without substantial cause, speculate on associations in the data.

But religion can simply make claims which must be accepted. You see, that's all fine and dandy so long as people do not bring their religious feelings to the science.

Creationists are all religious people who want to have their religious book's explanation be accepted. That is where the problems begin.

I do not argue about the validity of electronics, chemistry, or very often with geology.
But I do see problems with the interpretation of the fossil record, why is that?

But your critiques so far have indicated that you would, by necessity, debate the reality of electrons (you cannot see them). Chemical evidence is often rather complex and the critiques you raise could be leveled against chemistry (you don't observe the chemicals reacting, you observe the larger effects).

Well, as for geology, how about those of us who got our degrees in geology and who have crawled over more rocks with a small magnifying lens than most humans do and who have seen so much evidence of life's change over time that evolution just makes sense! The data is there. PLenty of it. Sufficient for people who work with the fossil record and those who work with LIVING ORGANISM to accept it.

Obliquinaut · Aug 3, 2017

Ronald said:
I don't have time, got an appointment in heaven in a couple months.

That sounds vaguely distressing. Care to elaborate?

Subduction Zone · Aug 3, 2017

Ronald said:
It wasn't a star they were following, it was very likely the planet Jupiter which moves travels into the constellation Virgo and moves out of it. Navigating by the stars has been used for awhile and so this planet gave them a specific location. Otherwise it was an angel, not a star, and that is another explanation as well.

Its nocturnal movement would be very similar to the Sun's movement. The stars can only tell us which way is north and a very rough latitude.

sfs · Aug 3, 2017

Ronald said:
How am I misunderstanding nature selecting beneficial mutations over time to evolve a living organism?

"The TOE implies that nature has a mind, intelligence to select beneficial mutations over time, sort them out and choosing one."
That's a misunderstanding; nothing about natural selection requires a mind.

"The organism would die of the thousands of harmless and deadly mutations before it got a chance to choose a good one (if it could)."
That's a misunderstanding. Harmless mutations don't cause an organism to die. Most deleterious mutations don't cause an organism to die, either; they just make organisms less likely to survive and reproduce. Natural selection can easily be observed to produce adaptive evolution from beneficial mutations, and to weed out deleterious mutations. We can observe it happening in the lab and in the wild -- and you tell us it can't happen? Yeah, that's a pretty big misunderstanding.

And where does your hope, purpose come from?

From God. What the heck does that have to do with evolution?

Ronald · Aug 3, 2017

pitabread said:
And yet evolutionary relationships between species is an applied science with application in various fields of biology. Meanwhile, creationism... isn't.

Funny, that.

Pitabread is man-made. It didn't happen by chance. It took a baker to put together ingredients and cook it. Yet ya'll think life happened by chance and then starting out as one cell, decided to become more complex and branch off into thousands upon thousands of unique animals and plants and the humans! Yet pitabread cannot come about by itself.

Ronald · Aug 3, 2017

Obliquinaut said:
That sounds vaguely distressing. Care to elaborate?

Wait a couple months, you'll what distressing means _ if I'm correct in interpreting prophetic signs.

Speedwell · Aug 3, 2017

Ronald said:
Pitabread is man-made. It didn't happen by chance. It took a baker to put together ingredients and cook it. Yet ya'll think life happened by chance and then starting out as one cell, decided to become more complex and branch off into thousands upon thousands of unique animals and plants and the humans! Yet pitabread cannot come about by itself.

Indeed not. Pita bread does not reproduce with heritable random variation.

Obliquinaut · Aug 3, 2017

Ronald said:
Theory of "Macro Evolution" is a fraud.

I wish people would stop saying things like that. If you disagree with the science say you "disagree" with it. If you think it is an active lie being promulgated to you by millions of independent scientists all over the world and across the span of a couple centuries then indeed you have a very dark sense of the absurd.

You are the ones confused.

You mean the people who have spent decades studying and learning and applying the science?

And where does your hope, purpose come from?

Does everything need to provide hope and purpose??? I spent most of my career working in coatings chemistry. I would be hard pressed to find a life-philosophy that inspired me in that field.

But that being said, my "hope and purpose" comes from the life I lead. I hope to do well and treat others fairly and well, my "purpose" is whatever I set for myself to achieve.

What do you look forward to when you are on your death bed

Speaking only for myself: oblivion. I actually look forward to that.

and then why did you accumulate all that you did to just lose it for yourself.

I have only one life on this planet. If I mattered to people it will be bonus that will survive my death. If not it won't matter to me. I have enjoyed the ride here and seen many wonderful things. I like the things I've accumulated but I've also been there going through all my folks' stuff after they passed away and realized "It brought THEM joy and no one really values it now." But that's enough. It brought them joy when they were alive and my brother and I essentially gave it away after they passed away. Their friends were able to come and take things that made them think of my mom or my dad. ANd that little bit of them lived on. And it brought joy to someone else.

Don't say to pass it on, I'm talking about you, going through all the motions of these life experiences, learning, forming relationships only to lose everything!

You seem to have a myopic and dark view of what life is like for an atheist. Many of us enjoy the ride here on the only go-round we have in this life. In this place. At this time.

Subduction Zone · Aug 3, 2017

Ronald said:
Pitabread is man-made. It didn't happen by chance. It took a baker to put together ingredients and cook it. Yet ya'll think life happened by chance and then starting out as one cell, decided to become more complex and branch off into thousands upon thousands of unique animals and plants and the humans! Yet pitabread cannot come about by itself.

You cannot refute what you do not understand and you got an amazing amount wrong in such a short post.

Obliquinaut · Aug 3, 2017

Ronald said:
Wait a couple months, you'll what distressing means _ if I'm correct in interpreting prophetic signs.

Ahhh, so everyone here only has a few months before the end of things? Got it.

Well, if I have to miss the in-house chemist conference here at work no harm-no foul. It's down in California and it'll be hot there even in a few months.

Neo-Darwinian evolution is in trouble INSIDE the scientific community

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