need some help, I'm alittle confused

[reda]

Hi, I'm new here.
I like to briefly describe my situation. I grew up in a family that went from religion to religion. First starting in the pentacostal church. When I became grown, I continue to search out different religions in the hope to find the truth. This quest has caused me alot of heartache but I never lost my faith in God. My turning point was 4 years ago when I heard the Lutheran Hour. I started reading things about the Lutherans from then on. What impressed me was how they lacked the scripture twisting that I had ran across in many churches, articles, and television programs. There's a few things that I'm alittle confused about concerning the Lutheran doctrine such as "how can bread that's man made can actually be the flesh of our savior?" and is the only difference with the WElS is the nature of fellowship? I enjoy alot of the writiings from the WELS and LCMS.
Also not to offend anyone, but from past experience, fundamentalism is a doctrine I stare clear of. I read some things partaining to some of the LCMS that is starting to accepting WOF, Fundamentalism, and Charismatic. It is my past experience that I found it to be alot of scripture twisting so stepping into one of those places is off limits for me. Here's another question, "how do I know that a LCMS church doesn't accept these doctrines?"
any advice would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks

 

[KimLCMS]

Welcome to the Lutheran Forums reda. I know that there are people in this area who can answer your questions much better than I. But I do want to welcome you.

The best way to find out about a church is to go to the church and also to talk to the pastor about your concerns. I know that makes work for you, but it's really the only way to make sure that that particular church is true to the confessions of the church and isn't going along with every fad that comes down the pike.

Blessings to you,
Kim

 

[BigNorsk]

Welcome. The easiest way to know about an individual congregation is to talk to them. Many have websites maybe some sermons and such online.

And what you will often find is a congregation does not teach or accept certain things but that individuals do.

You find that sort of thing in any group. Especially when people come from a variety of backgrounds. You find people may come say to the LCMS for certain reasons, but they often, at least for a time hold on to something that isn't quite right, maybe even try to teach it. If you find a shepherd who teaches right, I would say that's a good place to start.

Marv

 

[Studeclunker]

Hello Reba, and welcome to the Lutheran forum. I hope you've got a thick skin. Lutherans often tell things how they are.... bluntly. It must be the German heritage that we all share.

I have a friend who has a similar background to yours. Not the same, to be sure, just similar. She is a daughter of a third generation Missionary and did the missionary thing herself for a while. However, she always had the same problems with the Pentacostal and Reformed theologies and doctrines as you do. We've been going through the Book of Concord of late. If you really want to know the core of Lutheran belief systems, that's the place for it. Be prepared though, Luther and Melangthon aren't very nice about the Ana-Baptists and Enthuasts (Pentacostals).

I also have another really good book called, I think, 'A Study Of Christian Doctrine'. Perhaps the Revrend, Filo, or Rad could correct me on this name and author? The book is still packed and I can't get to it to verify the name. ANYWAY... It's a really good treatise on the Lutheran slant on Christian Doctrine. Another heavy book though. After all, it is a college text.

If you really want to climb into and examine the Lutheran mind, these are the books to read though.

Good luck, and welcome again to the forum.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Reda,

Welcome, glad you are here!

This is a bit of a generalization but in my experience, when you attend service the Congregations that tend to stick with the liturgical worship forms generally are more Confessional.

I understand your concerns; my wife and I attended a baptism at a United (Methodist) Church a few years ago. The baptism was done in the name of the Trinity which was good, but the Lord's Prayer, Creed and even the reading of a Gospel lesson were absent (except for their baptismal rite). All the hymns were "Songs" about trees, flowers, butterflies... Happy, happy, happy; joy joy joy. The "Psalm" was a poetic paraphrase. If someone who had not heard the Gospel walked into that service, they would still not know who the Lord was when they left.

I left a LCC congregation where the Pastor was not as confessional as I was, and was fortunate to find a Congregation in LCC with a very confessional Pastor very close to home.

May the Lord Bless and Guide you in your search!

Mark

 

[ajwrev]

Dear Reda: It was quite by chance that I stumbled across your post. I have my gmail account set to retrieve something/anything "Lutheran" for me every so often. That's how I got your post even though I live in s.e. Missouri. I'm a Lutheran pastor and have been one for almost 30 years. Growing up Lutheran, I did not always appreciate what I my parents had given me. Now I do. It would be good to get into a dialogue with you, if that would help you. It would be good to try to help you find a Lutheran Church which is solidly based on God's Word and on our Lutheran Confessions (there are some pastors and congregations which, sadly, do adopt some of the fundamentalistic ways to themselves). I can assure you that (in my opinion, of course) you will find a wonderful spiritual home in the Lutheran Church. If you're interested, you might email me and I can send you a link to my blog (they won't let me put up the link here yet b/c I just joined this list). I will be very curious to hear back from you. May you know God's peace through Christ our Savior!

 

[reda]

I appreciate the advice and I'm going to go with it. Studeclunker, I'm going to do a search to check out that book. Thanks.
Markrohfrietsch that's good advice for me to try to look for more confessional lutheran churches with the liturgical worship. I'll keep this on the top of my list. Ajwrey, I couldn't email you to find out about your blog. since I'm new, I haven't posted enough so I couldn't do this. Please email me, I would like to check out your blog. Thanks.
Now as far as me walking into a church service, I haven't mustered up enough courage. I had did this in the past with other church denom. what I experienced was alot of scripture twisting, circus side shows and some even looked to be some sort of haitian voodoo dancing. It was unbearable and frightening for me. brought back alot of memories growing up. Since I've read all your posts, I think I will go with emailing some Lutheran pastors in my area only the ones with the liturgical worship if I find out they do this I'll continue with my questions.
Once again thanks all.

 

[DaRev]

Hi, I'm new here.
I like to briefly describe my situation. I grew up in a family that went from religion to religion. First starting in the pentacostal church. When I became grown, I continue to search out different religions in the hope to find the truth. This quest has caused me alot of heartache but I never lost my faith in God. My turning point was 4 years ago when I heard the Lutheran Hour. I started reading things about the Lutherans from then on. What impressed me was how they lacked the scripture twisting that I had ran across in many churches, articles, and television programs. There's a few things that I'm alittle confused about concerning the Lutheran doctrine such as "how can bread that's man made can actually be the flesh of our savior?" and is the only difference with the WElS is the nature of fellowship? I enjoy alot of the writiings from the WELS and LCMS.
Also not to offend anyone, but from past experience, fundamentalism is a doctrine I stare clear of. I read some things partaining to some of the LCMS that is starting to accepting WOF, Fundamentalism, and Charismatic. It is my past experience that I found it to be alot of scripture twisting so stepping into one of those places is off limits for me. Here's another question, "how do I know that a LCMS church doesn't accept these doctrines?"
any advice would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks

Hi Reda,

I'm a LCMS pastor in PA. To answer a couple of your questions:

As to the bread and wine of the Lord's Supper being the very body and blood of Christ, it is by the power of God's word. Jesus took bread and said "This is My body." He took a cup of wine and said, "This is My blood." We take Him at His word. When He says that the bread is His body, then it is His body. Our Lord did not explain how this happens, so we don't attempt to explain it further than to say that we believe it to be what Jesus says it is. If you wish further information, you can PM me.
A little reading on the matter: http://www.lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=6476

As far as the "WOF, Fundamentalism, and Charismatic" question, I can assure you that the LCMS does not officially accept such things. While some individual pastors may lean those directions, they are not part of the official LCMS doctrines.
Here's a link to some documents concerning Lutherans and the Charismatic movement: http://www.lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=516

 

[reda]

Hi Darev,
I partly grew up in PA as a child even though I'm an Ohioan now in which I recently moved back. When I was living in North Carolina, I checked out the websites of a few Lutheran churches there. It lead to confusion for me because there were a few sites that had the charismatic elements in the services and programs. Real turn off.
The 2 links you have here, I had checked them out in the past. Concerning the Lord's supper, my confusion is in the area of the practice as seeing it in a symbolic sense. When paul stated that it was done to "proclaim the Lord's death until he comes". This statement has denoted to me that the Lord himself was not there as of yet as in "until he comes". Also the fact that when the Lord left the earth, He left in flesh and blood. To sum it up, for me to understand His supper in the literal sense with the bread being flesh and wine being His physical blood is hard for me to grasp the understanding. Anyway, thanks for your response.

 

[Studeclunker]

Hello again Reda.

To sum it up, for me to understand His supper in the literal sense with the bread being flesh and wine being His physical blood is hard for me to grasp the understanding.

You know, in the early Church, they were accused by outsiders of being cannibals. Early Christians seemed to have believed in 'real presence' in the elements of communion as well. Their explanation of communion was not missed by the, largely, pagan population they were prosthelysing. These pagans thought that the early Church was really eating human flesh and drinking blood. This 'transubstantiation' (that's a mouthful, right?) of Christ in the elements is not something he explained to us. The bread looks, tasts, and would chemically test as unleavened bread. The wine looks, tasts and would also test the same. What takes place? Again, this isn't really explained to us. Nevertheless, this real presence has been accepted since the earliest church history. You might just say many people like myself simply accept it as one of those unexplained mysteries. Kinda like why God himself decided to become one of us and pay, with his own blood and flesh, for our transgressions of the Law. To redeem us from the pawnbroker, as it were, when we had sold ourselves for a fix of selfishness.

If this is still clear as mud, don't feel alone. At the conferrence of Marburg, Luther tried to explain this transubstansiation to the Anabaptists and Zwinglii (predicessors of the Baptists, Penticostals, Methodists, Weslians, Presbytierans, Hugenots, and many others). After two weeks he gave up. Once again, read the books. They give the best explanation.

 

[DaRev]

Hi Darev,
I partly grew up in PA as a child even though I'm an Ohioan now in which I recently moved back. When I was living in North Carolina, I checked out the websites of a few Lutheran churches there. It lead to confusion for me because there were a few sites that had the charismatic elements in the services and programs. Real turn off.
The 2 links you have here, I had checked them out in the past. Concerning the Lord's supper, my confusion is in the area of the practice as seeing it in a symbolic sense. When paul stated that it was done to "proclaim the Lord's death until he comes". This statement has denoted to me that the Lord himself was not there as of yet as in "until he comes". Also the fact that when the Lord left the earth, He left in flesh and blood. To sum it up, for me to understand His supper in the literal sense with the bread being flesh and wine being His physical blood is hard for me to grasp the understanding. Anyway, thanks for your response.

A couple of things to consider. One, read John 6 where Jesus talks about His flesh being real food and His blood being real drink. When the question was asked "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?" Jesus doesn't answer the question right away. That comes later, at the Last Supper, when He takes bread and says "This is My body" etc.
Second, Jesus is both true God and true Man. His two natures cannot be separated. Thus, even in His humanity He has all the attributes of the Divine, including omnipresence (present everywhere). Also, you'll see in John 6 where He took a five dinner rolls and a couple of sardines and fed over 5000 people. If He can do that with bread and fish, He most certainly can do it with His own body and blood.

 

[reda]

you made a good point. this gives me something to think about. thanks

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Get the book "Spirituality of the Cross" by Dr. Gene Edward Vieth. It explains confessional Lutheran Doctrine. Great book; easy to read and understand. Also great fun! I'd start with this one first, then get into some of the deeper stuff! Mark

 

[WildStrawberry]

Nothing really to add here. Just wanted to say Hi

to Reda and Ajwrev!

Welcome to the forums y'all. Join in and have fun!

Kae

 

[latebloomer]

Welcome, Reda and Ajwrev!

There are always plenty of people around here with questions, answers, and just plain opinions. Feel free to ask about anything.

One addition I'd suggest besides all the books and references mentioned, would be Luther's Small Catechism. You don't even have to buy one, it's posted as a sticky on the main page of the TCL forum. It's one of the tools Lutherans use to teach our children.