Need help: What does John 1:18 mean

yogosans14

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So I went to the kingdom Hall of JWs with my grandmother today just to get her off my back about armageddon coming soon and I need to get the the "meetings" so I went and met some super nice people who want to hang out with me (or convert me lol) but anyways in today's sermon thingy they have they were saying the usual how they are the only true Christians and the Catholic Church has spread lies about God like the Trinity and then he made us turn tk John 1:18 and I dont remember reading that verse much. It is a good point, the Bible says no one has ever seen God at any time but yet Jesus was visible on the earth and he is God...how is that possible?
 

yogosans14

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Simple: the two Natures are distinct though inseparable. Thus, they saw Jesus in His Humanity, except for one time for Sts. Peter, John, and James the Greater, who each glimpsed Jesus' Divinity atop Mount Tabor.

But then wouldn't that mean someone has actually seen God before?
 
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VDMA

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No one has ever seen God the Father. That's what the verse is referencing.

How about we look at the NIV:

"No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known."

Or the ESV:

"No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father’s side, he has made him known."

Or the KJV:

"No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him."

Now let's break these verses apart and add in the personages of the Trinity.

NIV:

No one has ever seen [the Father], but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, [who] has made him known.

ESV:

"No one has ever seen [the Father]; the only [Son], who is at the Father’s side, he has made him known."

KJV:

"No man hath seen [the Father] at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him."

Now let's look at the Greek:

Θεὸν οὐδεὶς ἑώρακεν πώποτε; μονογενὴς Θεὸς, ὁ ὢν εἰς τὸν κόλπον τοῦ Πατρὸς, ἐκεῖνος ἐξηγήσατο.

A direct translation would be:

God [The Father], no one has seen ever/as of yet; [the] only begotten God [the Son], the [one] being in the bosom/at the side of the Father, he has made [him] known.

Or more simply:

No one has ever seen the Father as of yet; the only begotten Son, being in the bosom/at the side of the Father, has made Him known.

Now, let's look at how the JW's phrase it:

No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is at the Father’s side is the one who has explained Him.

The JW's believe that Jesus is not God, as shown in John 1:1, and so dilute the real Gospel.

The Jehovah's Witnesses claim the end of John 1:1 reads as "and the Word [Christ] was a god," when in fact, the Greek phrases it perfectly clearly:

καὶ Θεὸς ἦν ὁ Λόγος

And God was the Word

Not, and a god was the Word, but simply, and God was the Word.

The Trinity is the only true God. Three in One, and One in Three.

Or, in the words of the Athanasian Creed:

"Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.

And the catholic faith is this, that we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; Neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Substance. For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost is all one: the glory equal, the majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Ghost uncreated. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Ghost incomprehensible. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Ghost eternal. And yet they are not three Eternals, but one Eternal. As there are not three Uncreated nor three Incomprehensibles, but one Uncreated and one Incomprehensible. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Ghost almighty. And yet they are not three Almighties, but one Almighty. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not three Lords, but one Lord. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by Himself to be God and Lord, So are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say, There be three Gods, or three Lords.

The Father is made of none: neither created nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created, but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son: neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is before or after other; none is greater or less than another; But the whole three Persons are coeternal together, and coequal: so that in all things, as is aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshiped. He, therefore, that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.

Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe faithfully the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right faith is, that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man; God of the Substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and Man of the substance of His mother, born in the world; Perfect God and perfect Man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood; Who, although He be God and Man, yet He is not two, but one Christ: One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking the manhood into God; One altogether; not by confusion of Substance, but by unity of Person. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and Man is one Christ; Who suffered for our salvation; descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead; He ascended into heaven; He sitteth on the right hand of the Father, God Almighty; from whence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies, and shall give an account of their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil, into everlasting fire.

This is the catholic faith; which except a man believe faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved."
 
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MoreCoffee

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So I went to the kingdom Hall of JWs with my grandmother today just to get her off my back about armageddon coming soon and I need to get the the "meetings" so I went and met some super nice people who want to hang out with me (or convert me lol) but anyways in today's sermon thingy they have they were saying the usual how they are the only true Christians and the Catholic Church has spread lies about God like the Trinity and then he made us turn tk John 1:18 and I dont remember reading that verse much. It is a good point, the Bible says no one has ever seen God at any time but yet Jesus was visible on the earth and he is God...how is that possible?
When he read that verse he probably read it from the New World Translation which is the bible published and translated by the JWs themselves. The passage says (in the NWT) the following:
(John 1:18) No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is at the Father’s side is the one who has explained Him.​
MY bible, translated by Catholics says:
John 1:18 NAB No one has ever seen God. The only Son, God, who is at the Father's side, has revealed him.​
The difference is not so subtle. Catholics recognise that John is calling Jesus God while Jehovah's witnesses call him god.

The question asked "how can Jesus be God if he was seen by men and the verse says 'no one has ever seen God?" in the public-talk in the kingdom hall is answered thus:
John 1:18 (comments from The Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges)
The Evangelist solemnly sums up the purpose of the Incarnation of the Logos—to be a visible revelation of the invisible God. It was in this way that ‘the truth came through Jesus Christ,’ for the truth cannot be fully known, while God is not fully revealed.

No man: Not even Moses. Until we see ‘face to face’ (1Co 13:12) our knowledge is only partial. Symbolical visions, such as Exo 24:10; Exo 33:23; 1Ki 19:13; Isa 6:1, do not transcend the limits of partial knowledge.

hath seen: With his bodily eyes.

at any time: Better, ever yet; ‘no one hath ever yet seen God;’ but some shall see Him hereafter.

the only begotten Son: The question of reading here is very interesting. Most MSS. and versions have ‘the only-begotten Son’ or ‘only-begotten Son.’ But the three oldest and best MSS. and two others of great value have ‘only-begotten God.’ The test of the value of a MS., or group of MSS., on any disputed point, is the extent to which it admits false readings on other points not disputed. Judged by this test the group of MSS. which read ‘only-begotten God’ is very strong; while the far larger group of MSS. which have ‘Son’ for ‘God’ is comparatively weak, for the same group of MSS. might be quoted in defence of a multitude of readings which no one would think of adopting. Again, the revised Syriac, which is among the minority of versions that support ‘God,’ is here of special weight, because it agrees with MSS. from which it usually differs. We conclude, therefore, that the very unusual expression ‘only-begotten God’ is the true reading, which has been changed to the usual ‘only-begotten Son,’ a change which in an old Greek MS. would involve the alteration of only a single letter. Both readings can be traced up to the second century, which again is evidence that the Gospel was written in the first century. Such differences take time to spread themselves widely. See on Joh 1:13 and Joh 9:35.

in the bosom: Literally, into the bosom, which may mean that the return to glory after the Ascension is meant. Comp. Mar 2:1; Mar 13:16; Luk 9:61. On the other hand the Greek for ‘which is’ points to a timeless relation.

hath declared: Better, declared, acted as His interpreter. The Greek word is used both in the LXX. and in classical authors of interpreting the Divine Will. On the emphatic use of ‘He’ here comp. Joh 1:33 and see on Joh 10:1. In the First Epistle this pronoun (ekeinos) is used specially for Christ; Joh 2:6, Joh 3:3; Joh 3:5; Joh 3:7; Joh 3:16, Joh 4:17.

In this prologue we notice what may be called a spiral movement. An idea comes to the front, like the strand of a rope, retires again, and reappears later on for development and further definition. Meanwhile another idea, like another strand, comes before us, and retires to reappear in like manner. Thus the Word is presented to us in Joh 1:1, is withdrawn, and again presented to us in Joh 1:14. The Creation comes next in Joh 1:3, disappears, and returns again in Joh 1:10. Then ‘the Light’ is introduced in Joh 1:5, withdrawn, and reproduced in Joh 1:10-11. Next the rejection of the Word is put before us in Joh 1:5, removed, and again put before us in Joh 1:10-11. Lastly, the testimony of John is mentioned in Joh 1:6-7, repeated in Joh 1:15, taken up again in Joh 1:19, and developed through the next two sections of the chapter.

We now enter upon the first main division of the Gospel, which extends to the end of chap. 12, the subject being Christ’s Ministry, or, His Revelation of Himself to the World, and that in three parts; the Testimony (Joh 1:19 to Joh 2:11), the Work (Joh 2:13 to Joh 11:57), and the Judgement (12). These parts will be subdivided as we reach them. 19–37 The Testimony of the Baptist (1) to the deputation from Jerusalem, (2) to the people, (3) to S. Andrew and S. John: 38–51 The Testimony of the Disciples: Joh 2:1-11 The Testimony of the First Sign.
 
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ViaCrucis

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So I went to the kingdom Hall of JWs with my grandmother today just to get her off my back about armageddon coming soon and I need to get the the "meetings" so I went and met some super nice people who want to hang out with me (or convert me lol) but anyways in today's sermon thingy they have they were saying the usual how they are the only true Christians and the Catholic Church has spread lies about God like the Trinity and then he made us turn tk John 1:18 and I dont remember reading that verse much. It is a good point, the Bible says no one has ever seen God at any time but yet Jesus was visible on the earth and he is God...how is that possible?

It is impossible to see God, because God in His essence is invisible, formless, infinite (etc).

But Jesus, God made flesh, makes God known. He is the "visible image of the invisible God" and "the fullness of Deity in bodily form".

That's the point. God in His eternal, infinite, invisible, formless Essence cannot be known, cannot be seen. Yet Jesus, being both God and man, can make God known to us. That's what the Incarnation means, and what St. John is talking about in the prologue here. That "In the beginning was the Logos, and the Logos was with God, and the Logos was God ... and the Logos became flesh and dwelt among us and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only-begotten of the Father ... no one has ever seen God, the only-begotten God at the Father's side has made God known"

It is Jesus, God from God, God the Logos made flesh, He makes God known. "Whoever has seen Me has seen the Father", "I and My Father are one".

Jesus is "the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power"

-CryptoLutheran
 
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By Faith Alone

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It is impossible to see God, because God in His essence is invisible, formless, infinite (etc).

But Jesus, God made flesh, makes God known. He is the "visible image of the invisible God" and "the fullness of Deity in bodily form".

That's the point. God in His eternal, infinite, invisible, formless Essence cannot be known, cannot be seen. Yet Jesus, being both God and man, can make God known to us. That's what the Incarnation means, and what St. John is talking about in the prologue here. That "In the beginning was the Logos, and the Logos was with God, and the Logos was God ... and the Logos became flesh and dwelt among us and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only-begotten of the Father ... no one has ever seen God, the only-begotten God at the Father's side has made God known"

It is Jesus, God from God, God the Logos made flesh, He makes God known. "Whoever has seen Me has seen the Father", "I and My Father are one".

Jesus is "the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power"

-CryptoLutheran

Great. :thumbsup: Taking this further would be an an unorthodox view but Scripturally sound.

 
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Albion

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So I went to the kingdom Hall of JWs with my grandmother today just to get her off my back about armageddon coming soon and I need to get the the "meetings" so I went and met some super nice people who want to hang out with me (or convert me lol) but anyways in today's sermon thingy they have they were saying the usual how they are the only true Christians and the Catholic Church has spread lies about God like the Trinity and then he made us turn tk John 1:18 and I dont remember reading that verse much. It is a good point, the Bible says no one has ever seen God at any time but yet Jesus was visible on the earth and he is God...how is that possible?

Via Crucis explained this the best. First, we know that God WAS seen before by man, and not just because Christ was/is God. The Father was seen by Moses who debated with him. So the passage can't be taken literally.

What it means is that God in all his Godly qualities has not been seen by Man. We can't even contemplate the nature of the omniscient, eternal, omnipotent spirit who is our Creator. All that we could handle, as men, is God when he has taken on our appearance, etc.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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So I went to the kingdom Hall of JWs with my grandmother today just to get her off my back about armageddon coming soon and I need to get the the "meetings" so I went and met some super nice people who want to hang out with me (or convert me lol) but anyways in today's sermon thingy they have they were saying the usual how they are the only true Christians and the Catholic Church has spread lies about God like the Trinity and then he made us turn tk John 1:18 and I dont remember reading that verse much.

It is a good point, the Bible says no one has ever seen God at any time but yet Jesus was visible on the earth and he is God...how is that possible?
Perhaps because Jesus is God?

John 14:
8 Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us.”
9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with thee so long, and yet thou hast not known Me, Philip?
He who has seen Me hast seen the Father;
so how can thou sayest, ‘Show us the Father'"?







.
 
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yogosans14

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It is impossible to see God, because God in His essence is invisible, formless, infinite (etc).

But Jesus, God made flesh, makes God known. He is the "visible image of the invisible God" and "the fullness of Deity in bodily form".

That's the point. God in His eternal, infinite, invisible, formless Essence cannot be known, cannot be seen. Yet Jesus, being both God and man, can make God known to us. That's what the Incarnation means, and what St. John is talking about in the prologue here. That "In the beginning was the Logos, and the Logos was with God, and the Logos was God ... and the Logos became flesh and dwelt among us and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only-begotten of the Father ... no one has ever seen God, the only-begotten God at the Father's side has made God known"

It is Jesus, God from God, God the Logos made flesh, He makes God known. "Whoever has seen Me has seen the Father", "I and My Father are one".

Jesus is "the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power"

-CryptoLutheran

Oh ok thanks I got it now.
 
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