Bread vs WORD of God - in John 6, John 1, Deut 8 - is symbolism used in Last Supper

[BobRyan]

Jesus said "This is My body". He's the final authority on the matter.

-CryptoLutheran

Jesus said eating "flesh is useless" in John 6 when it comes to eternal life and that it is His WORDs that are that bread

63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh provides no benefit; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit, and are life.

-- thus in John 6 no literal bread was falling out of the sky -- as all agree.

No wonder some folks find it so necessary to avoid the Bible details in the OP

John 1:1 In the beginning was the WORD

John 1:14 the WORD became flesh and dwelt among us.

Deut 8:3 And He humbled you and let you go hungry, and fed you with the manna which you did not know, nor did your fathers know, in order to make you understand that man shall not live on bread alone, but man shall live by every WORD that comes out of the mouth of the Lord.

John 6
Jesus said that if you want eternal life - bite my flesh - drink my blood... but then - those who take him too literally leave.

54 The one who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. 55 For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink. 56 The one who eats My flesh and drinks My blood remains in Me,...​

60 So then many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, “This statement is very unpleasant; who can listen to it?”​

So Jesus gives the meaning of the symbolism right in the chapter!
Jesus said that eating literal flesh is worthless - it is His WORDS that are "spirit and are life"
Peter gets the message "you have the WORDS of eternal life"

61 But Jesus, aware that His disciples were complaining about this, said to them,... 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh provides no benefit; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit, and are life.​

...​

66 As a result of this many of His disciples left, and would no longer walk with Him. 67 So Jesus said to the twelve, “You do not want to leave also, do you?” 68 Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have words of eternal life.​

====================================================================== more detail

John 6:

Jesus starts in John 6: by explaining the symbolism for bread of life - in the same way they had it in Deut 8:

35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”​

So then the "eating" is in "seeing and believing IN Him" not literally biting Him as we see in the text above -
But the unbelieving Jews took him too literally in his statement "I AM the bread which CAME down out of heaven" -- clearly no one things break came down from the sky then or at any time in Christ's life on Earth.

​

John 6: 41 The Jews then complained about Him, because He said, “I am the bread which came down from heaven.” ... 47 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven. ​

In the text above is the reference to manna in Exodus and Deuteronomy 8

Deut 8:3 And He humbled you and let you go hungry, and fed you with the manna which you did not know, nor did your fathers know, in order to make you understand that man shall not live on bread alone, but man shall live by every WORD that comes out of the mouth of the Lord.​

This next text claims Christ IS bread coming right down out of heaven - yet not one person on this board believes people in John 6 were watching bread fall out of heaven or that Mary saw that sort of thing at Christ's birth --- they don't take that literally.

John 6:52 The Jews therefore quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this Man give us His flesh to eat?”​

53 Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed. 56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me. 58 This is the bread which came down from heaven—not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever.”​

In that text above -- very strong statements about being bread falling out of the sky and the need to bite that bread - bite Christ in that case if one ignores all the symbolism and take it all literally.
...

Next Jesus removes all doubt by saying that eating literal flesh for eternal life - is worthless "profits nothing"

61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, “Does this offend you? 62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.”​

IN the text above Jesus explains the symbolism fully - eating literal flesh is worthless - but accepting the WORDS of Christ is eternal life. Many people skip over that part as if it were never written.

Jesus tests the faithful group who are staying - and are also NOT biting Christ - no not at all.

66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”​

68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”​

Don't miss that statement of Peter - he is going back to Christ's opening statement explaining the symbolism " everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

John 6:35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”​

 

[concretecamper]

Sorry to hear that -- but I choose to stick with John's Gospel on the details he gives in John 6 for this topic.

or the details you must read into it to make it fit your novel ideas.

 

[DragonFox91]

Evidently, Ignatius of Antioch, disciple of John the Apostle taught a different reality.

"Pay close attention to those who have wrong notions about the grace of Jesus Christ, which has
come to us, and note how at variance they are with God’s mind. They care nothing about love:
they have no concern for widows or orphans, for the oppressed, for those in prison or released, for
the hungry or the thirsty. They hold aloof from the Eucharist and from services of prayer, because they refuse to admit
that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins and which,
in his goodness, the Father raised . Consequently those who wrangle and dispute God’s gift face
death. They would have done better to love and so share in the resurrection. The right thing to do,
then, is to avoid such people and to talk about them neither in private nor in public. Rather pay
attention to the prophets and above all to the gospel. There we get a clear picture of the Passion
and see that the resurrection has really happened."

https://www.orderofstignatius.org/files/Letters/Ignatius_to_Smyrnaeans.pdf

Your symbolism view isn't new. It was defeated close to 2,000 years ago, yet we still have those who cling to the lie as if it is truth.

I'm aware of those fathers, & those quotes. Everyone & their brother is. They were dismissing the Gnostics who claimed there wasn't a body & blood at all, & they call it the body & blood to emphasize that to the Gnostics, plus are following Jesus's lead per the Gospels in calling it the body & blood. No one is questioning it was (& still is) called the body & blood. Protestant churches still call it the body & blood. But we recognize it's an emphasis b/c we're proclaiming his body & blood. There is in fact no contradiction like you think it is. You go to a Protestant church, they WILL call it the body & blood. The heresy is denying there was a body & blood in the first place. Just b/c a couple church fathers call it the body & blood, that doesn't equal transubstantiation.

The fact that it's not novel tells me the Apostles were unclear on it from Jesus. The popularity of a "doctrine" doesn't mean anything. "Wide are the gates that lead to ruin." Some interpreted it literal like you, some didn't. Do you honestly believe Jesus told them everything? I don't, & I don't think that's a flaw either. Plus, there have been church leaders in good standing who believed it symbolic but remained in good standing with your church. It only became a problem when your church's elite decided to excommunicate a good chunk of members who used to be in good standing b/c they had a couple questions, so much for union.
I find it interesting you admit it's not novel, usually the argument is Protestant ideas were born in the Reformation & had no historical basis.

Also, if you believe it is not symbolic, that is fine, I don't think you're a heretic.

 

[concretecamper]

I'm aware of those fathers, & those quotes. Everyone & their brother is.

Very few are aware of the Church Fathers.

Apostles were unclear on it from Jesus.

Haha, so according to you, we can't trust anything. Good luck with that.

The popularity of a "doctrine" doesn't mean anything.

And where you came up with this, who knows.

Do you honestly believe Jesus told them everything?

The Holy Spirit will lead the Church, in other words, Sacred Tradition. Thanks for bring that up.

Plus, there have been church leaders in good standing who believed it symbolic but remained in good standing with your church

Making things up won't help your cause.

It only became a problem when your church decided to excommunicate a good chunk of members who used to be in good standing, so much for union.

When your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. His words, not mine.

 

[DragonFox91]

Very few are aware of the Church Fathers.

Haha, so according to you, we can't trust anything. Good luck with that.

And where you came up with this, who knows.

The Holy Spirit will lead the Church, in other words, Sacred Tradition. Thanks for bring that up.

Making things up won't help your cause.

When your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. His words, not mine.

I know & it's a shame.
Not sure how you jump from 'disagreed on some things' to 'we can't trust anything'? Disagreement is common & isn't always bad.
It should be common sense mob rule is dangerous
No one disagrees Holy Spirit leads the church in good things. How do you determine what's from the Holy Spirit & what's man made? I determine if it matches what Jesus taught based on documentation back to as close when he was in the flesh as we can.
Nope, you see it in history.
He prayed for union. His words not mine.

 

[concretecamper]

Not sure how you jump from 'disagreed on some things' to 'we can't trust anything'?

Think about it.

Disagreement is common & isn't always bad.

Ah, Did God really tell you if you eat of this fruit you will die?

Holy Spirit leads the church in good things. How do you determine what's from the Holy Spirit & what's man made?

Because He leads His Church, not every community that claims they are a Church

I determine if it matches what Jesus taught based on documentation back to as close when he was in the flesh as we can

Follow your ideas, I'll follow God.

Nope, you see it in history.
He prayed for union. His words not mine.

What?

 

[Philip_B]

Sorry to hear that -- but I choose to stick with John's Gospel on the details he gives in John 6 for this topic.

Or perhaps a particular and narrow understanding of John 6.

 

[JAL]

John 1:1 In the beginning was the WORD
John 1:14 the WORD became flesh and dwelt among us.

Deut 8:3 And He humbled you and let you go hungry, and fed you with the manna which you did not know, nor did your fathers know, in order to make you understand that man shall not live on bread alone, but man shall live by every WORD that comes out of the mouth of the Lord.

John 6
Jesus said that if you want eternal life - bite my flesh - drink my blood... but then - those who take him too literally leave.

54 The one who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. 55 For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink. 56 The one who eats My flesh and drinks My blood remains in Me,...​

60 So then many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, “This statement is very unpleasant; who can listen to it?”​

So Jesus gives the meaning of the symbolism right in the chapter!
Jesus said that eating literal flesh is worthless - it is His WORDS that are "spirit and are life"
Peter gets the message "you have the WORDS of eternal life"

61 But Jesus, aware that His disciples were complaining about this, said to them,... 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh provides no benefit; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit, and are life.​

...​

66 As a result of this many of His disciples left, and would no longer walk with Him. 67 So Jesus said to the twelve, “You do not want to leave also, do you?” 68 Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have words of eternal life.​

====================================================================== more detail

John 6:

Jesus starts in John 6: by explaining the symbolism for bread of life - in the same way they had it in Deut 8:

35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”​

So then the "eating" is in "seeing and believing IN Him" not literally biting Him as we see in the text above -
But the unbelieving Jews took him too literally in his statement "I AM the bread which CAME down out of heaven" -- clearly no one things break came down from the sky then or at any time in Christ's life on Earth.

​

John 6: 41 The Jews then complained about Him, because He said, “I am the bread which came down from heaven.” ... 47 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven. ​

In the text above is the reference to manna in Exodus and Deuteronomy 8

Deut 8:3 And He humbled you and let you go hungry, and fed you with the manna which you did not know, nor did your fathers know, in order to make you understand that man shall not live on bread alone, but man shall live by every WORD that comes out of the mouth of the Lord.​

This next text claims Christ IS bread coming right down out of heaven - yet not one person on this board believes people in John 6 were watching bread fall out of heaven or that Mary saw that sort of thing at Christ's birth --- they don't take that literally.

John 6:52 The Jews therefore quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this Man give us His flesh to eat?”​

53 Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed. 56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me. 58 This is the bread which came down from heaven—not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever.”​

In that text above -- very strong statements about being bread falling out of the sky and the need to bite that bread - bite Christ in that case if one ignores all the symbolism and take it all literally.
...

Next Jesus removes all doubt by saying that eating literal flesh for eternal life - is worthless "profits nothing"

61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, “Does this offend you? 62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.”​

IN the text above Jesus explains the symbolism fully - eating literal flesh is worthless - but accepting the WORDS of Christ is eternal life. Many people skip over that part as if it were never written.

Jesus tests the faithful group who are staying - and are also NOT biting Christ - no not at all.

66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”​

68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”​

Don't miss that statement of Peter - he is going back to Christ's opening statement explaining the symbolism " everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

John 6:35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”​

Totally incorrect. First of all the third Person's title is best translated "The Holy Wind/Breath" (not Holy Spirit) as the physical spoken Word/Breath of God's mouth (Isaiah 55:11 Ps 33:6). It's virtually impossible to find a valid metaphor for this physical divine Word because, in the task of sprinkling/permeating Himself throughout the universe He created, He necessarily assumes every known material form and shape. He is LITERALLY Fire, Light, Living Water, Wine, and Bread, literally anything you can think of including a dove.

"The Holy [Wind/Breath] descended upon Him in the bodily shape of a dove."

John 1:14 provides a simple proof of His physicality/materiality.

"The Word became flesh".

Think about it. When I eat a physical sandwich, my metabolism easily converts it to human protoplasm. The sandwich becomes flesh. What would happen if I tried to eat an immaterial sandwich? Would it become flesh? That's a logical contradiction.

Curious you didn't comment on verses 50-51:

50But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which anyone may eat and not die. 51I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.” (John 6).

Is that a literal statement, or a metaphor? Did He literally give His life for the world? Yes.

This next text claims Christ IS bread coming right down out of heaven - yet not one person on this board believes people in John 6 were watching bread fall out of heaven or that Mary saw that sort of thing at Christ's birth --- they don't take that literally.

Strawman. Christ recognizes Himself as (part of) the divine Word spread throughout the universe, who is continually descending in various forms (including Bread and Wine) into the bodies of His people - even when they don't see it. Thus terms such as "my Flesh" and "my Blood" and "my Bread" and "my Living Water" (etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc) are all interchangeable terms. Hence:

"Unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood, you have no life in you."

Ask yourself this question. If none of this is literal, why so many verses to that effect? Think about it. The history of Israel is a penchant for idolatry. Therefore Christ's bread-and-flesh venerating language makes for a stupid Bible - unless it is literally true. In fact Catholics have always venerated the Eucharistic host. (Personally I don't believe this is justifiable unless I KNOW a particular host is the divine Word. As for how I can know this for sure is an epistemological question off-topic here. Suffice it to say it is a matter of Direct Revelation aka prophecy).

Generally, metaphors are not numerically specific. It is a legitimate metaphor to say, "My boss is a real bear to wrestle with." Note I didn't point to a specific bear and say, "See that bear over there? That's my boss. Would you like to meet hiim?" That would be numerically specific to a particular bear, and thus NOT a valid metaphor. At the last supper Jesus was numerically specific. He pointed to a particular serving of bread and wine stating, "See this bread and wine over here? This is my body and blood."


"The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. "

Unfortunately, the traditional translation is misleading. When a man speaks, it is the word/breath of His mouth. In Christ's case, it was typically the divine Word/Breath released/exhaled/spoken from His mouth (Isaiah 55:11; Psalm 33:6);

"The (spoken/exhaled) words that I speak to you, are Breath/Wind, and they are Life."

That Voice is the ONLY way to get saved. Even today, the Son speaks/releases the divine Word into you, regardless whether it first passes through a human medium (the mouth of a human preacher). Hence, "My sheep know my voice, and they follow me" (John 10:27 John 5:37).

Subsequently you made a rather lame argument about the leaven of the Pharisees being a symbol for their teaching. Isn't it interesting that, when Christ IS speaking in metaphors, He usually alerts us to the fact? As was the case there? Examples:

"Then He told them this parable...."
"The Kingdom of Heaven is like a mustard seed."

The obvious implication is that, when He is NOT alerting us to a metaphor, He is usually speaking literally.

There's a VERY serious logical problem with your analysis. God created us for only one reason - fellowship with Him:
(1Cor 1:9; Philippians 2:1; 1Jn 1:3, 6). And there is only one possible definition of fellowship:

Fellowship between two parties can only be defined as a mutual exchange of sensations.

To maximize the fellowship, therefore, we must abound both in the quality and diversity of the sensations. Think about. Suppose you could only hear your bride - but not see her, smell her, touch her, or taste her. Is that maximum fellowship? Of course not. It logically follows that the Wedding Supper of the Lamb is a literal, physical ingestion of the divine Word - and that for a closely related reason. Namely, to the extent that God neglects to fill all your senses with Himself, is the extent to which you self-conceive those aspects of God (which leads to a conceptually idolatrous, inaccurate picture of Him). It is logically NECESSARY to complete sanctification, then, that you eat and drink of the divine Word.

Enough said.

 

[The Liturgist]

Jesus said "This is".

If He wanted to mean something else, He would have said something else. He did not speak in symbols, He did not speak in metaphor or allegory or in parable. He did not speak in simile. He said "This is". This was no longer the time of parables or speaking in figurative language to His disciples. He was on His way to suffer, and so He was now speaking to them plainly, in plain language, and He said "This is".

-CryptoLutheran

Precisely.

John 1:1 makes it clear that Jesus Christ is the Word of God - not the Bible. But insofar as the Bible is an icon of the Word, it quotes our Lord literally concerning the Eucharist in the institution narratives and in John 6.

 

[The Liturgist]

Sorry to hear that -- but I choose to stick with John's Gospel on the details he gives in John 6 for this topic.

What @concretecamper has said is completely in line with what the Gospel According to John says on the topic.