Near death experiences—Can we learn anything from them?

[GoldenKingGaze]

Do I understand you to say that NDEs are equivalent to revelation from God?

To the sound minded person who has one, with some length and detail. And someone with faith. Like Abraham, for him it is true for another it is not clear.

 

[Derf]

To the sound minded person who has one, with some length and detail. And someone with faith. Like Abraham, for him it is true for another it is not clear.

But don't you see the problem? If someone is persuaded they have faith and is of supposedly sound mind, they would consider the information they receive from their NDE to be on par with scripture, except because it was a personal experience, they would put it above scripture. And now these experiences would be driving their faith, rather than trustworthy knowledge from scripture. It seems to be a recipe for apostasy.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

But don't you see the problem? If someone is persuaded they have faith and is of supposedly sound mind, they would consider the information they receive from their NDE to be on par with scripture, except because it was a personal experience, they would put it above scripture. And now these experiences would be driving their faith, rather than trustworthy knowledge from scripture. It seems to be a recipe for apostasy.

I saw Howard Storm's NDE account on YouTube in 12 parts. I read his book and called him by phone about ten times. He returned from atheism to the church he grew up in, and respects other churches and even other religions. He sees faults in Paul the apostle. Not a hard submitter. He gained his own revelation of God's love. For him ET is certainly real, and his church does not restrain him. He used to go on mission trips. It to him was a solid experience that led to scripture from a biased angle.

And in NDEs, always Jesus does not name a most true church and even people in other religions if they practice good compassion, go on into the light. Classic Pentecostal teaching says you must be born again and baptized, or your fate is unsure... but NDEs reveal mercy and 1 Timothy 4:10 is highlighted instead of John 3.

 

[Derf]

I saw Howard Storm's NDE account on YouTube in 12 parts. I read his book and called him by phone about ten times. He returned from atheism to the church he grew up in, and respects other churches and even other religions. He sees faults in Paul the apostle. Not a hard submitter. He gained his own revelation of God's love. For him ET is certainly real, and his church does not restrain him. He used to go on mission trips. It to him was a solid experience that led to scripture from a biased angle.

And in NDEs, always Jesus does not name a most true church and even people in other religions if they practice good compassion, go on into the light. Classic Pentecostal teaching says you must be born again and baptized, or your fate is unsure... but NDEs reveal mercy and 1 Timothy 4:10 is highlighted instead of John 3.

None of which answers my objections.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

But don't you see the problem? If someone is persuaded they have faith and is of supposedly sound mind, they would consider the information they receive from their NDE to be on par with scripture, except because it was a personal experience, they would put it above scripture. And now these experiences would be driving their faith, rather than trustworthy knowledge from scripture. It seems to be a recipe for apostasy.

If they believe in re-incarnation there is apostasy, but if they no longer expect to see the great white throne of judgment but instead in a life review then that is better than scriptural literalism.

 

[Derf]

If they believe in re-incarnation there is apostasy, but if they no longer expect to see the great white throne of judgment but instead in a life review then that is better than scriptural literalism.

I can imagine other false beliefs, and from those false teachings, coming from NDEs, besides just reincarnation.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

I can imagine other false beliefs, and from those false teachings, coming from NDEs, besides just reincarnation.

If the evil spirits disguise themselves well, there is a whole host of them.

 

[Derf]

If the evil spirits disguise themselves well, there is a whole host of them.

Indeed. So is it possible Howard Storm encountered some of them, not in a true vision of hell, but bringing him a false vision of hell, one that would gain him fame and attention in the Christian Church in order for him to draw people away from the truth, even though he says it bright him back to faith? I don't know for sure, but some aspects of his story make me wonder.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

Indeed. So is it possible Howard Storm encountered some of them, not in a true vision of hell, but bringing him a false vision of hell, one that would gain him fame and attention in the Christian Church in order for him to draw people away from the truth, even though he says it bright him back to faith? I don't know for sure, but some aspects of his story make me wonder.

Satan won't fight against himself. He would have stayed in Hell if it were up to Satan. But instead he was healed. And as a result of prayer honouring God. He then experienced benevolence and answers to questions. The assurance there would be no nuclear war, but possible times of suffering if there is no repentance. He returned to life and started to worship and attend church, went to Bible college, pastored and did mission trips and saw signs and wonders. Satan doesn't want that.

 

[Derf]

Satan won't fight against himself. He would have stayed in Hell if it were up to Satan. But instead he was healed. And as a result of prayer honouring God. He then experienced benevolence and answers to questions. The assurance there would be no nuclear war, but possible times of suffering if there is no repentance. He returned to life and started to worship and attend church, went to Bible college, pastored and did mission trips and saw signs and wonders. Satan doesn't want that.

Satan presents himself as an angel of light, which could be taken to mean he's revealing information, but his purpose is to actually hide truth. Whether Storm had a real conversion or not, if the NDE was not real and gives false information about hell, Satan benefits from Storm's fame.

I haven't read Storm's full account, but I question the little bit I've read, like the part about demons tearing through his body with their claws. Nowhere in scruption is Satan pictured as the king of hell with demons tormenting the people there. Rather, Satan is first bound and cast into the pit, then later he is cast into the lake of fire, not as some kind of ruler, but as a defeated foe of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

Satan presents himself as an angel of light, which could be taken to mean he's revealing information, but his purpose is to actually hide truth. Whether Storm had a real conversion or not, if the NDE was not real and gives false information about hell, Satan benefits from Storm's fame.

I haven't read Storm's full account, but I question the little bit I've read, like the part about demons tearing through his body with their claws. Nowhere in scruption is Satan pictured as the king of hell with demons tormenting the people there. Rather, Satan is first bound and cast into the pit, then later he is cast into the lake of fire, not as some kind of ruler, but as a defeated foe of our Lord Jesus Christ.

I have heard of a lot of different accounts of Hell, not all simply Bible based.

Suicide NDEs Hell is sad and horrific, and in survivors, leads to repentance. Usually they lead to change for the better. Never heard of a good Hell experience. Some are quite Biblical.

 

[Derf]

I have heard of a lot of different accounts of Hell, not all simply Bible based.

Suicide NDEs Hell is sad and horrific, and in survivors, leads to repentance. Usually they lead to change for the better. Never heard of a good Hell experience. Some are quite Biblical.

Can you point me to one off the biblical ones? We already discounted Howard Storm's account.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

Can you point me to one off the biblical ones? We already discounted Howard Storm's account.

Bill Wiese
Santosh's NDE

 

[FireDragon76]

They are true experiences however they are often filtered through ones cultural expectations and religious upbringing.

Howard Storm's experience contains elements that line up with other near-death experiences. He was lead to believe his negative experience was due to the kind of life he lead prior to his experience, not because of his religion or lack thereof, though today he believe it is important to believe in God and live a life according to the way of Jesus, he doesn't believe only Christians go to heaven, and people in his religious denomination (UCC) generally don't believe that, either.

People raised as non-Christians have also seen Jesus in nearth-death experiences. Heidi Barr was raised an agnostic Jew when she had a horse-riding accident at 16, where she left her body and encountered Jesus. This suggests NDE's aren't completely relative to the culture or religious expectations one was raised with, as her family was explicitly rejecting anything to do with Christianity or Jesus:

People in industrialized societies have broadly similar experiences. Usually a tunnel and a light. The light doesn't always speak or is identified as a personal being, such as God, though. In Japan, it was rare (but not completely unheard of) for the light to speak, for instance:, in this study comparing Japanese and western NDE's. Most just said they saw a light that was beautiful and they were peaceful and happy:

https://med.virginia.edu/perceptual-studies/wp-content/uploads/sites/360/2017/01/NDE76-Japanese-and-western-JNDS.pdf

My own study of NDE's and mystical experiences (and my own spiritual experiences) has lead me to a kind of Christian inclusivism. Other religions are true inasmuch as they reveal universal things about human nature and/or God, that are also revealed in the Christian Gospels. I also don't believe non-Christian religions are necessarily false or evil, or that non-Christians go to Hell.