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Natural selection v Intelligent design

Loudmouth

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What are you meaning by 6billion sequences. Are you meaning 6 billion base pairs in a human cell. There are four bases in DNA, and their sequence spells out the information DNA carries. So these Base pairs can be like letters in language that write out the instructions to build humans. If there are spelling mistakes it can have a harmful effect.

This claim is refuted by the fact that everyone is born with 50 "spelling mistakes", and the human race keeps on chugging along. It is also refuted by the fact that there are 6 billion people, all of which have different sequences between their genomes. If there couldn't be any "spelling mistakes" then everyone would have the same exact genome, but they don't.

Also, DNA is nothing like a language. Is it the chemical reaction between you and a letter that allows you to read it? No. However, it is the physical and chemical properties of bases in the genome that give them their function. A better analogy is that of a clock where the physical interactions between the gears in the clock result in the appearance of the clock on the outside.

This will apply to all living things though the genetic language for each will be different according to the living creature that is made. But all living things will have a similar basic blueprint for life. Between humans the difference may be only 0.01%.

The evidence you are avoiding is that those sequences form a phylogeny. Intelligent design doesn't do this. Evolution does. Computer programs do not fall into a nested hierarchy. Genomes do.
 
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pshun2404

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Nested Hierarchies (whether tree or bush or each species having its own) are merely systems of classification designed by an outside intelligent force (human in this case). Its a decent system that can be used as one way of explaining similarities but nonetheless still merely a system of classification.
 
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Loudmouth

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Nested Hierarchies (whether tree or bush or each species having its own) are merely systems of classification designed by an outside intelligent force (human in this case).

Nested hierarchies are objective, not subjective.

"The degree to which a given phylogeny displays a unique, well-supported, objective nested hierarchy can be rigorously quantified. Several different statistical tests have been developed for determining whether a phylogeny has a subjective or objective nested hierarchy, or whether a given nested hierarchy could have been generated by a chance process instead of a genealogical process (Swofford 1996, p. 504). These tests measure the degree of "cladistic hierarchical structure" (also known as the "phylogenetic signal") in a phylogeny, and phylogenies based upon true genealogical processes give high values of hierarchical structure, whereas subjective phylogenies that have only apparent hierarchical structure (like a phylogeny of cars, for example) give low values (Archie 1989; Faith and Cranston 1991; Farris 1989; Felsenstein 1985; Hillis 1991; Hillis and Huelsenbeck 1992; Huelsenbeck et al. 2001; Klassen et al. 1991)."
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section1.html#nested_hierarchy

If you took random DNA sequences and plugged them into statistical tests they would not return a well supported phylogeny. If you plugged the distribution of characters in designs made by humans, they would also not return a well supported phylogeny.

Its a decent system that can be used as one way of explaining similarities but nonetheless still merely a system of classification.

We observe that evolutionary mechanisms produce phylogenies.

We observe that intelligent design does not produce phylogenies.

Life falls into a nested hierarchy.

How is this not evidence for evolution?
 
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stevevw

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I am saying that there are billions of combinations that do work, and those are just the ones we know of so far. Therefore, it isn't specific. If it was specific, then every organism within a species would have the same exact genome.
There are not billions of combinations that do work. There are billions of possible combinations that will not work. To make a working and functional protein that programs living things you need it to be a specific 3D shape for each and every living thing. But there can by unlimited possible shapes that will end up not working. So if you take each individual animal and consider that they could have unlimited possible outcomes to make proteins but they each end up with the exact correct ones to make them functional its quite amazing. There are only 20 amino acids in all the universe that will combine to make all life. From these every function and variety of features is made. So even though each creature has its own specific combinations they all have a similar small set of basic ingredients to work from.

There is also not a specific way to make a chocolate cake. There is no specificity.
Yes there is. If you dont have the right ratios of flour to liquid and eggs ect and the right mixing and baking temp with time you will not get the right end product. You will still get a form of chocolaty substance but it wont be functional as a chocolate cake should be. Times that by every cake and you begin to have specific ingredients, amounts, times, temps and methods. Times that by what makes living organisms and there is a whole lot more specifics involved. If any of these are out by even the smallest of margins you will get non function and disease or weaker living things. Its not whether any variation can produce something that lives. Its about that living thing being viable and functional to thrive and survive.

I already refuted this claim. They don't have to be just right as shown by the fact that the sequences differ within a species and between species.
They can differ between living things but can each individual living thing have a different % or those particular makeups of proteins and still be viable and fit. If you change a humans cytochrome c or any other proteins in any way would that make a difference. Would the cytochrome c or other proteins still function in the same way that it works properly to do its job.

They don't have the same specific makeup. That's what I have been telling you all along.
Yes we know that because they dont look and work the same. But an ape is an ape and needs to have the exact genetic makeup to make it an ape and for it to function like an ape. A human is a human and needs to have the exact genetic makeup right down to the specific sequences of to produce the proper combinations for proteins to make humans. So this applies to all living things. If you were to make a specific living thing with the ingredients of life you couldn't just throw in any old combination of ingredients into a pot to get the right results. This is even the same right down to micro organism.

The Shape and Structure of Proteins

From a chemical point of view, proteins are by far the most structurally complex and functionally sophisticated molecules known. This is perhaps not surprising, once one realizes that the structure and chemistry of each protein has been developed and fine-tuned over billions of years of evolutionary history.

The Shape of a Protein Is Specified by Its Amino Acid Sequence
Recall from Chapter 2 that there are 20 types of amino acids in proteins, each with different chemical properties. A protein molecule is made from a long chain of these amino acids, each linked to its neighbor through a covalent peptide bond (Figure 3-1). Proteins are therefore also known as polypeptides. Each type of protein has a unique sequence of amino acids, exactly the same from one molecule to the next. Many thousands of different proteins are known, each with its own particular amino acid sequence.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK26830/
 
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SkyWriting

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In what context is a whale a fish?

Animals that are born underwater, communicate in water, swim in water all their lives, and cannot live outside of water.
 
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Loudmouth

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There are not billions of combinations that do work.

Yes, there are. There are 6 billion humans, and they all have different genomes.

There are billions of possible combinations that will not work. To make a working and functional protein that programs living things you need it to be a specific 3D shape for each and every living thing.

Different proteins have different 3d structures, and they all still function.

But there can by unlimited possible shapes that will end up not working. So if you take each individual animal and consider that they could have unlimited possible outcomes to make proteins but they each end up with the exact correct ones to make them functional its quite amazing.

There isn't an exact correct one, as I have already demonstrated multiple times.

There are only 20 amino acids in all the universe that will combine to make all life.

That is completely a completely unsupported claim. It also flies in the face of observations.

"The new technique originated in the laboratory of George Church, a geneticist at Harvard Medical School. Two years ago, Church and his team (which included Isaacs) reported the synthesis of a strain of Escherichia coli that had a reprogrammed genetic code3. Instead of recognizing a particular DNA triplet known as the amber stop codon as an order to terminate protein synthesis, the recoded bacterium read the same instruction as a directive to incorporate a new kind of amino acid into its proteins."
http://www.nature.com/news/gm-microbes-created-that-can-t-escape-the-lab-1.16758

That's right, a bacterial strain that uses a different amino acid than the 20 you claim have to be used. They incorporated this feature into another bacterial species, and it requires that artificial amino acid in its diet:

"Two US teams have produced genetically modified (GM) bacteria that depend on a protein building block — an amino acid — that does not occur in nature. The bacteria thrive in the laboratory, growing robustly as long as the unnatural amino acid is included in their diet. But several experiments involving 100 billion or more cells and lasting up to 20 days did not reveal a single microbe capable of surviving in the absence of the artificial supplement."

There is absolutely no expectation that alien life from a different planet would use the same amino acids that life on this planet uses, or if they would use amino acids at all.
So even though each creature has its own specific combinations they all have a similar small set of basic ingredients to work from.

If the combinations are different from organism to organism and species to species, then it a specific combination isn't need for life.

If you dont have the right ratios of flour to liquid and eggs ect and the right mixing and baking temp with time you will not get the right end product.

You can use different ratios and get different results, many of which are quite edible.

They can differ between living things but can each individual living thing have a different % or those particular makeups of proteins and still be viable and fit. If you change a humans cytochrome c or any other proteins in any way would that make a difference. Would the cytochrome c or other proteins still function in the same way that it works properly to do its job.

You can change cytochrome c by 40% and it still functions just fine and in the same way.


Yes we know that because they dont look and work the same. But an ape is an ape and needs to have the exact genetic makeup to make it an ape and for it to function like an ape.

Every ape has a different genome, so there is no exact ape genome.

A human is a human and needs to have the exact genetic makeup right down to the specific sequences of to produce the proper combinations for proteins to make humans.

Every human genome is different, so this is also false.

The Shape and Structure of Proteins
From a chemical point of view, proteins are by far the most structurally complex and functionally sophisticated molecules known. This is perhaps not surprising, once one realizes that the structure and chemistry of each protein has been developed and fine-tuned over billions of years of evolutionary history.

The Shape of a Protein Is Specified by Its Amino Acid Sequence
Recall from Chapter 2 that there are 20 types of amino acids in proteins, each with different chemical properties. A protein molecule is made from a long chain of these amino acids, each linked to its neighbor through a covalent peptide bond (Figure 3-1). Proteins are therefore also known as polypeptides. Each type of protein has a unique sequence of amino acids, exactly the same from one molecule to the next. Many thousands of different proteins are known, each with its own particular amino acid sequence.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK26830/

I just showed you an example of a protein that can differ by 40% at the sequence level, and it still has the same function.
 
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Larniavc

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Animals that are born underwater, communicate in water, swim in water all their lives, and cannot live outside of water.

That's not context. That's thinking a mammal is a fish. It's not a fish in any context. Children know this.
 
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SkyWriting

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That's not context. That's thinking a mammal is a fish. It's not a fish in any context. Children know this.

Not Japanese children. And there's a number of Japanese.
Other, non-japanese people also have questions about this.

Why are whales mammals and not fish? - UCSB Science Line

scienceline.ucsb.edu/getkey.php?key=2536

Are Whales Fish or Mammals? - Marine Life - About.com

marinelife.about.com › ... ›

Are Whales Fish? - Whale Facts

www.whalefacts.org/are-whales-fish/

A Whale Is Not a Fish by Melvin Berger | Scholastic.com

Are dolphins fish? - National Ocean Service - NOAA

Why a Whale is not a Fish | Actforlibraries.org

www.actforlibraries.org/why-a-whale-is-not-a-fish/
Why is a whale not considered a fish? This is a topic many people stumble upon. Yes both fish and whale live in the water; but, can both breath straight air, can

 
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SkyWriting

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In what context is a whale a fish?

Whale meat on sale at Tsukiji fish market in Tokyo in 2008

Whale meat on sale at the fish market in Bergen, Norway, in 2012
In Europe, whale could once be hunted locally throughout the Middle Ages for their meat and oil.[2] Under Catholicism, aquatic creatures were generally considered "fish"; therefore whale was deemed suitable for eating duringLent[2] and other "lean periods"
 
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Archaeopteryx

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My understanding of the universe is like many in that we dont really know. There are a lot of ideas out there but none are really proven. There are conflicts even with the most popular theories and the maths doesn't add up to say that these theories are validated. IE there isn't enough mass in the universe to hold itself up so dark energy has been hypothesized. This hasn't been verified and is still a big unanswered question which is related to how the universe started.

Another problem with the big bang theory is the problem of a flat universe and the cosmological fine tuning. Scientists have said that the universe is flat from the evidence that the background radiation emits. But to get a flat universe it would take a very fine tuned beginning with the big bang.

Flatness problem

Such problems arise from the observation that some of the initial conditions of the universe appear to be fine-tuned to very 'special' values, and that a small deviation from these values would have had massive effects on the nature of the universe at the current time.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flatness_problem

All Carson is saying is what many have said that this is all speculation. He is asking the question how can order come from chaos.


I understand its not an explosion and more of an expansion. But that doesn't matter so much when it comes to the beginning of things being random and chaotic. It wasn't the result of a guided process that was going to place things in their order so that it produced certain fine tunings that go beyond chance happenings. I tend to lean towards there being one universe and it is fine tuned for life. I think all this speculating about parallel worlds is mainly to explain away that fine tuning and design we see in our universe.

Thats why scientists propose a multiverse where there are many parallel universes like bubbles that expand from each other. In this scenario it makes the chances of creating a just right universe for life like ours not so special. If there are many universes all having slightly different physics then chances are one of them would be like ours. Thats why I guess its a bit far fetched and controversial. Because its even debated among mainstream scientists. I think mainstream scientists are stumped by the fine tuning question and that the maths doesn't add up when taking relativity into consideration.

To say its not contested and is a consensus is a little misleading because its all speculation and nothing is proven. There are many hypothesis out there for how the universe started. The multiverse or parallel worlds theory is probably the best and most common one that scientists support nowadays. String theory is the latest theory that is derived from this. So the big bang or inflation theory is only part of how scientists think our universe started.

The Case for Parallel Universes

Another key aspect of the new worldview derives from string theory, which is at present our best candidate for the fundamental theory of nature. String theory admits an immense number of solutions describing bubble universes with diverse physical properties. The quantities we call constants of nature, such as the masses of elementary particles, Newton’s gravitational constant, and so on, take different values in different bubble types. Now combine this with the theory of inflation. Each bubble type has a certain probability to form in the inflating space. So inevitably, an unlimited number of bubbles of all possible types will be formed in the course of eternal inflation.

This picture of the universe, or multiverse, as it is called, explains the long-standing mystery of why the constants of nature appear to be fine-tuned for the emergence of life. The reason is that intelligent observers exist only in those rare bubbles in which, by pure chance, the constants happen to be just right for life to evolve. The rest of the multiverse remains barren, but no one is there to complain about that.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/multiverse-the-case-for-parallel-universe/
 
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stevevw

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Yes, there are. There are 6 billion humans, and they all have different genomes
Humans are 99.9% genetically the same.

Different proteins have different 3d structures, and they all still function.
Yes but there are only a certain set of functional proteins. Their 3D structure has to be exact otherwise it will not function. Yet there are many possible shapes a protein can take on that wont work. To many to say that the exact functional ones happened by chance. In fact to just make small changes to a protein from random mutation and still produce the right shape for function has been shown to be improbable.
Estimating the prevalence of protein sequences adopting functional enzyme folds.
Combined with the estimated prevalence of plausible hydropathic patterns (for any fold) and of relevant folds for particular functions, this implies the overall prevalence of sequences performing a specific function by any domain-sized fold may be as low as 1 in 10(77), adding to the body of evidence that functional folds require highly extraordinary sequences.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15321723
One in 10/77 is another way of saying its impossible.

There isn't an exact correct one, as I have already demonstrated multiple times.
adding to the body of evidence that functional folds require highly extraordinary sequences.
That to me is saying that protein folds require very specific sequences.There are unlimited possible structures that a protein could become but there are only certain specific structures that can produce functional proteins. Are you saying any shape protein can be functional. Whether is is one protein or a set of proteins they need to all be a specific structure to work. In fact creating a set of specific structures rather than just one is harder.

That is completely a completely unsupported claim. It also flies in the face of observations.
Only 20 standard amino acids are used to build proteins, but why exactly nature "chose" these particular amino acids is still a mystery.
http://www.astrobio.net/news-exclusive/mapping-amino-acids-to-understand-lifes-origins/
there are 20 types of amino acids in proteins, each with different chemical properties
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK26830/

"The new technique originated in the laboratory of George Church, a geneticist at Harvard Medical School. Two years ago, Church and his team (which included Isaacs) reported the synthesis of a strain of Escherichia coli that had a reprogrammed genetic code3. Instead of recognizing a particular DNA triplet known as the amber stop codon as an order to terminate protein synthesis, the recoded bacterium read the same instruction as a directive to incorporate a new kind of amino acid into its proteins."
http://www.nature.com/news/gm-microbes-created-that-can-t-escape-the-lab-1.16758
Good for them, they can artificially make new amino acids. They can also artificially create a test tube baby. It doesn't mean that it happens naturally and is meant to happen. Scientists may one day make life in a lab but that mean that life evolved. It actually proves ID because its having to take brilliant intelligent minds to design and work out how to do it in the first place. But still in nature there are only 20 that make up all proteins in different combinations. Some say that these 20 amino acids are like the laws of physics. They are a part of nature and have always been there.

The protein folds as Platonic forms: New support for the pre-Darwinian conception of evolution by natural law
However, in the case of one class of very important organic forms-the basic protein folds- advances in protein chemistry since the early 1970s have revealed that they represent a finite set of natural forms, determined by a number of generative constructional rules, like those which govern the formation of atoms or crystals, in which functional adaptations are clearly secondary modifications of primary "givens of physics." The folds are evidently determined by natural law, not natural selection, and are "lawful forms" in the Platonic and pre-Darwinian sense of the word, which are bound to occur everywhere in the universe where the same 20 amino acids are used for their construction.
http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=14417556

That's right, a bacterial strain that uses a different amino acid than the 20 you claim have to be used. They incorporated this feature into another bacterial species, and it requires that artificial amino acid in its diet:
Then why do these papers say that there are only 20 amino acids for all life.

"Two US teams have produced genetically modified (GM) bacteria that depend on a protein building block — an amino acid — that does not occur in nature. The bacteria thrive in the laboratory, growing robustly as long as the unnatural amino acid is included in their diet. But several experiments involving 100 billion or more cells and lasting up to 20 days did not reveal a single microbe capable of surviving in the absence of the artificial supplement."
Once again this is artificial evolution. It doesn't mean it will survive in the wild. As seen with artificial selection we can create new features. But that doesn't mean they will be viable. Quite often the artificially selected animals have a fitness loss and can get many diseases. If this extra amino acid was a natural thing then why wasn't it formed in nature. why wasn't a million other ones formed. Why is it only these 20 that make up life. Along with the fact that proteins need to be a specific structure to function it is showing how design is in nature.

There is absolutely no expectation that alien life from a different planet would use the same amino acids that life on this planet uses, or if they would use amino acids at all.
There is nothing at all to speculate about this because nothing has been proven that there is any life out there anyway let alone what type of amino acids they have. The funny thing is many scientists are saying that life came from outta space anyway because they cant explain how such a complex life could form form non life or a simpler form without having some help. Thats almost an admission that life has design anyway. One of the latest theories is that aliens have created our genomes. Because scientist are seeing that our genetics is far to complex to have evolved they are now having to come up with far fetched ideas to explain this away.

Scientists have found an Alien code in our DNA: Ancient Engineers

According to mainstream scientists: Alien code found in our DNA. Extraterrestrial beings created our species.
http://www.ancient-code.com/scientists-have-found-an-alien-code-in-our-dna-ancient-engineers/

If the combinations are different from organism to organism and species to species, then it a specific combination isn't need for life.
The genetic code is so complex that we cant comprehend what its like. But even evolutionists acknowledge that all life comes from a similar basic genetic makeup and thats what they base the tree of life on and common ancestry. It wouldn't be common if it didn't have similar basics. So though the genetics differ for each animal they still use the same basic blueprints. what makes eyes is basically similar.

But the differences are not completely alien to the way in which body structures are made through our DNA. Its just coded differently for different features. Its not as if a completely different code for life has evolved for different animals and the fact that even evolution says that all life comes from one common ancestor proves this. Of course its disputed as to whether life did stem from a common ancestor or it has the hallmarks of common design. But either way all life has a similar signature.

You can use different ratios and get different results, many of which are quite edible.
Being edible and being what would be classed as a proper cooked item are two different things. Ive eaten someone cooking that didn't turn out because I was hungry and thats OK. But this is food and we can get away with it. Still it is not a proper example of what it should be because the receipt and ingredients were not properly used. When it comes to life you cant have that same compromise. Even the smallest mistake can render life non functional and even destroy it. That is why our copying process is so good at eradicating those mistakes.There is only something like 1 mistake in 10 million in the copying process.

You can change cytochrome c by 40% and it still functions just fine and in the same way.
I am not sure what this means. Whether you are completely changing cytochrome c or it is still the same thing or does the same job but with a smaller capacity. Even so a yeast is not going to need the same % as humans. So I guess its like humans have more blood and water in their bodies than other creatures. But its still blood and water but just a lesser %. I would say that yeast still have to have the right balance of all their proteins to be functional. They cant have 39.9999% different cytochrome c to humans. It still has to be 40% which is precise for the amount that they need event tough the possibility for them to have ended up with 41% , 20%, 57% or and other % was there.

Every ape has a different genome, so there is no exact ape genome.
But all apes have to have a similar set of genetics to be made. That difference wont be great and the variations are only within a certain scale. I would say the genes to make a nose are the same but there is slight variations for the types of noses. That difference is a small variable in a very exact science.

Every human genome is different, so this is also false.
There is only about a 0.1% difference between the most distinct human genomes.

I just showed you an example of a protein that can differ by 40% at the sequence level, and it still has the same function.
It is going to be different because one is a yeast and one is a human. But its all still the same protein. Can a yeast do without this protein and thats the important thing. There is a code for life but there is still variation within that specific code. That doesn't mean that yeast have a completely different basic blue print for life. They still have to have proteins to make their features and functions. They still have to have the same amino acids, they still have to have DNA ect.

Its like comparing a motor bike and a truck. They both have to have a combustion engine, oil, gas, electrics. But their % of oil, gas ratios, electronic components, CC capacity ect will be different. But they couldn't function unless they have the oil , gas and combustion engines. Yet each has to have the exact ratios, combinations of components that suit their particular requirements. They still both are made from the same basic blueprint for engines.
 
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stevevw

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So does that make Carson dumb. Many brilliant scientists believe in God. A god that can do miracles, created humans and that Jesus ascended into heaven. They also believe in the devil as well. Does that mean they dont know what they are talking about when they talk about in science or medical terms.
 
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Archaeopteryx

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So does that make Carson dumb. Many brilliant scientists believe in God. A god that can do miracles, created humans and that Jesus ascended into heaven. They also believe in the devil as well. Does that mean they dont know what they are talking about when they talk about their particular science specialty.
He isn't talking about his particular science speciality. That was my point, several pages ago, which you refused to concede.
 
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stevevw

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He isn't talking about his particular science speciality. That was my point, several pages ago, which you refused to concede.
Yes but you went to the extreme of saying that he didn't know anything about evolution which was untrue. A man of his education will know something about evolution. Many of us on here are lay people and havnt done a course in biology or evolution but we know enough of the basics to be able to decern certain things. Carson is more than that as I said before , he studied biology and chemistry as part of his uni course.

Even so I dont want to get into another long debate about Carson. Lets just say then there are other well educated people who may know about evolution but still believe in God and the devil. So are they also to be called into question. Just because they believe this doesn't mean that everything they say is wrong.
 
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Archaeopteryx

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Yes but you went to the extreme of saying that he didn't know anything about evolution which was untrue. A man of his education will know something about evolution.
Don't misrepresent my position.
Many of us on here are lay people and havnt done a course in biology or evolution but we know enough of the basics to be able to decern certain things. Carson is more than that as I said before , he studied biology and chemistry as part of his uni course.
So what?
Even so I dont want to get into another long debate about Carson. Lets just say then there are other well educated people who may know about evolution but still believe in God and the devil. So are they also to be called into question. Just because they believe this doesn't mean that everything they say is wrong.
Carson wasn't talking about his particular science speciality.
 
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Loudmouth

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Humans are 99.9% genetically the same.

Then please stop claiming that they are 100% the same and have to have an exact genome.

Yes but there are only a certain set of functional proteins. Their 3D structure has to be exact otherwise it will not function.

It doesn't have to be exact. There are proteins of all different 3D structures and they have function.
In fact to just make small changes to a protein from random mutation and still produce the right shape for function has been shown to be improbable.

You can change cytochrome c by 40% and it still functions. Nothing improbable about it.

Estimating the prevalence of protein sequences adopting functional enzyme folds.
Combined with the estimated prevalence of plausible hydropathic patterns (for any fold) and of relevant folds for particular functions, this implies the overall prevalence of sequences performing a specific function by any domain-sized fold may be as low as 1 in 10(77), adding to the body of evidence that functional folds require highly extraordinary sequences.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15321723
One in 10/77 is another way of saying its impossible.

Where is the real lab data to back this up? Where have they tested random sequences against all known substrates?

http://www.nature.com/news/gm-microbes-created-that-can-t-escape-the-lab-1.16758

It demonstrates that life could use different amino acids, contrary to your claims.

Then why do these papers say that there are only 20 amino acids for all life.

Where do they say that those are the only 20 amino acids that life could use?

The genetic code is so complex that we cant comprehend what its like.

Please, let's stop with the arguments from ignorance.

But even evolutionists acknowledge that all life comes from a similar basic genetic makeup and thats what they base the tree of life on and common ancestry. It wouldn't be common if it didn't have similar basics. So though the genetics differ for each animal they still use the same basic blueprints. what makes eyes is basically similar.

First, they aren't blueprints. There isn't a picture of what needs to be made in the nucleus of your cells. Ribosomes don't read the picture and then build a protein to match. That's not how it works.

Also, if the genetics differ then they don't have to be exact or specific.

But the differences are not completely alien to the way in which body structures are made through our DNA. Its just coded differently for different features. Its not as if a completely different code for life has evolved for different animals and the fact that even evolution says that all life comes from one common ancestor proves this. Of course its disputed as to whether life did stem from a common ancestor or it has the hallmarks of common design. But either way all life has a similar signature.

Common design doesn't produce nested hierarchies. Evolution does. We observe nested hierarchies.

Being edible and being what would be classed as a proper cooked item are two different things. Ive eaten someone cooking that didn't turn out because I was hungry and thats OK. But this is food and we can get away with it. Still it is not a proper example of what it should be because the receipt and ingredients were not properly used. When it comes to life you cant have that same compromise. Even the smallest mistake can render life non functional and even destroy it. That is why our copying process is so good at eradicating those mistakes.There is only something like 1 mistake in 10 million in the copying process.

Again, the facts disprove your claims.

I am not sure what this means. Whether you are completely changing cytochrome c or it is still the same thing or does the same job but with a smaller capacity. Even so a yeast is not going to need the same % as humans.

Again, it is the sequence of amino acids that differs by 40%. Here is a comparison of the sequences.

cytc blast.png

Query and subject are the human and yeast proteins, respectively. Each letter represents one of the 20 amino acids. The line in between represents the places where they match, either exactly or with the same functional group of amino acid (+'s). Look at all of those differences, and yet they both function just fine.

They cant have 39.9999% different cytochrome c to humans.

They do differ by 40%. The proof is right in this post.

But all apes have to have a similar set of genetics to be made.

That is completely untrue. For example, if they were created separately the design could give each ape species a different codon usage table with different tRNA's to the point where they barely share any sequence but still produce the same proteins. With junk DNA making up 90% of the genome, they could completely change 90% of the DNA that we share. An all knowing and all powerful designer could also produce the same morphology with any number of combinations of proteins with different amino acids.

Computer software is a good example. Google Chrome on PC and Mac look almost identical when they are on the screen. However, the software that drives both programs is very different. You can get almost identical results from very different programming. DNA is the same. You can get the same morphology from very different DNA sequences, so there is no absolutely no expectation that morphology should match genetics if intelligent design is true.

There is only about a 0.1% difference between the most distinct human genomes.

There is a 40% difference between the human and yeast gene I showed you, and yet those genes can be interchanged.

It is going to be different because one is a yeast and one is a human. But its all still the same protein.

Why do we see the number of differences between the same genes increase as we increase the proposed evolutionary distance? Why does mouse and human cytochrome c differ by less than human and yeast cytochrome c? Why do we see the exact differences we should see if evolution is true, and how do you explain this pattern using intelligent design?

Its like comparing a motor bike and a truck. They both have to have a combustion engine, oil, gas, electrics. But their % of oil, gas ratios, electronic components, CC capacity ect will be different. But they couldn't function unless they have the oil , gas and combustion engines. Yet each has to have the exact ratios, combinations of components that suit their particular requirements. They still both are made from the same basic blueprint for engines.

Motor bikes and trucks don't fall into a nested hierarchy. Life does. That's the difference.
 
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Larniavc

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Whale meat on sale at Tsukiji fish market in Tokyo in 2008

Whale meat on sale at the fish market in Bergen, Norway, in 2012
In Europe, whale could once be hunted locally throughout the Middle Ages for their meat and oil.[2] Under Catholicism, aquatic creatures were generally considered "fish"; therefore whale was deemed suitable for eating duringLent[2] and other "lean periods"

None of that makes whales fish. I don't understand your problem, here.
 
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Don't misrepresent my position.
Ok well it seemed you were making out that Carson was so dumb when it came to evolution that he didn't know some of the basics.
Carson wasn't talking about his particular science speciality.
He also wasn't going into any great detail about any particular specialty. He had enough knowledge to be able to give a general view and thats all he was doing. We have gone through this before so I dont know why you want to keep trying to add to it. The point is I could find a person who does have the expert knowledge of a particular science who will also agree with Carson. But all that will do is open up another can of worms as to who is credible again. A lot of this is based on personal interpretation of the evidence.

Even so we could start talking about the observable and testable evidence. And that doesn't in many cases support what evolution is saying either as I have posted before. [/QUOTE]
 
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