• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Natural selection v Intelligent design

stevevw

inquisitive
Nov 4, 2013
15,946
1,720
Brisbane Qld Australia
✟320,403.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
I never sought to deputise Einstein to my argument.
But now you are.
He called your beliefs "childish," dude.
So does he believe in God or not. He also has quotes saying he believes in God. He believes that life and existence is the result of an intelligent designer. So which of his quotes are correct. Overall it seems he believes in God or ID so this would be more in line with my views than an atheists.
That's not what he said.
I thought he was saying that there was design in nature from his quotes.

"In view of such harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human mind, am able to recognize, there are yet people who say there is no God. But what really makes me angry is that they quote me for the support of such views."
In other words he is saying I dont have the view that there is no God and believe God is responsible for the harmony of the cosmos.

And so he calls some a child for believing in God yet then he says an intelligent person should believe in God. Speaking of children. Here he is speaking directly about his beliefs. He he is speaking about the great design we intuitively see in life and existence and know that God is behind this. Here he is saying that science can take us so far but then as an intelligent person we have to acknowledge Gods amazing creation.

"I'm not an atheist and I don't think I can call myself a pantheist. We are in the position of a little child entering a huge library filled with books in many languages. The child knows someone must have written those books. It does not know how. It does not understand the languages in which they are written. The child dimly suspects a mysterious order in the arrangements of the books, but doesn't know what it is. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of even the most intelligent human being toward God."
 
Upvote 0

Archaeopteryx

Wanderer
Jul 1, 2007
22,229
2,608
✟78,240.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
But now you are.
No, I'm pointing out that you are wrong to try to deputise him to your argument.
So does he believe in God or not. He also has quotes saying he believes in God. He believes that life and existence is the result of an intelligent designer. So which of his quotes are correct. Overall it seems he believes in God or ID so this would be more in line with my views than an atheists.
He called your beliefs childish, steve, so no.
 
Upvote 0

masterp48hd

Active Member
Aug 6, 2015
26
2
35
✟15,156.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
So if all the artificially selected variations will die and what we are left with is the original and natural state that was created in the wild how can evolution work. This is evolution in reverse. Any variation away from the natural state which is the fittest and best will be weaker and not be selected in the end. What we see in the breeds of dogs is just about every conceivable feature created. There isn't to much more to be made. Yet all of these things are moving away from the natural wild type and therefore a cost to fitness.

So if there happens to be a very very rare benefit that will be selected chances are its only a variation of existing genes which will fix itself in the population. But this requires the existing genetics and nothing new is added as far as new features. It may add a different color or thicker coat or longer legs. But the genetics for hair, color and size are already there. But if there was some new beneficial trait that made some new feature it would be very very rare so it would take more time to evolve. More time that the earth has been around.

Because then you would need additional very rare beneficial mutations that will continue to be in line with that new feature and continue to be selected and so forth adding new rare additional mutations each time. Considering that the mutations are primarily a copying mistake away from the natural and best and mostly are a cost to fitness it all seems impossible.
The different traits will disappear as long as the animal is fully adapted to the environment. If for example the climate in some place cools down a lot, only the individuals of a species that can sustain the cold better will live and all the others die (some species will disappear entirely in the process), and those who can live in colder places will pass on their genes on the later generations, and those who are.born with tge genes passed by their parents will live, and those who are.born with tge "old genes" will die. Leave them a couple million years and they are fully adapted to the cold. I know it's difficult to imagine because those are a lot of years but it is roughly how it works.
Ps: i speak the little that i know about evolution, i'm not a biologist so i understand only the general idea of it, i probably made some mistakes but thats how i understand that works
 
Upvote 0

Ruby Sparks

New Member
Aug 14, 2015
3
0
65
✟22,613.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
I have never understood how "natural selection" and "intelligent design" are at necessarily at odds: An intelligent designer could have invented natural selection.

True. An intelligent designer could have. Now all we need is a case to be made for this, instead of the trying to find flaws in the more plausible alternative, which seems to be what has made up most of the thread after your post.
 
Upvote 0

SkyWriting

The Librarian
Site Supporter
Jan 10, 2010
37,281
8,501
Milwaukee
✟411,038.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Many claim everything on Earth is from a god or Intelligent Design. Claiming Natural Selection couldn't create something as involved and complex as all the species on Earth.

Actually it can't "Create" anything at all. Or even move in the direction of creation.
What natural law or process allows for the "growth" of any additional design from
a lesser level?
 
Upvote 0

SkyWriting

The Librarian
Site Supporter
Jan 10, 2010
37,281
8,501
Milwaukee
✟411,038.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
We, descended from monkeys, during fetal development we have a tail and lose it in the 9th week.

That bologna has been dropped decades ago.
Which includes men having nipples. Where was the intelligent design in that process?
Men and women don't differentiate until after that stage.
Don't get your gonads all worked up about having cooties or something.
 
Upvote 0

stevevw

inquisitive
Nov 4, 2013
15,946
1,720
Brisbane Qld Australia
✟320,403.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
No, I'm pointing out that you are wrong to try to deputise him to your argument.

He called your beliefs childish, steve, so no.
This is a good example of how you choose to only see what you want to see and look at only part of the evidence and twist what a person has said. I said that Einstein acknowledge that there was some sort of spirit that governed the universe and life and not just God if you read what I put in the first place. You have changed it specifically to God. My point was that even people of scientific minds can have a faith that there is something that controls everything beyond that science. (Every one who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the Universe-a spirit vastly superior to that of man, and one in the face of which we with our modest powers must feel humble).

But still Einstein said that an intelligent person would believe in God. But you only choose to focus on some of his quotes. In fact when you look at all of his quotes about God and belief the ones supporting a belief in God outnumber any where he has said that a belief in God is silly. So which is more true. If this evidence was taken into account the positive support for a belief in God from Einstein would be greater.

But this is all irrelevant. I could find another stack of scientists to support a belief in God. My point was that scientists who use analytic thought and base their findings on falsifying the evidence can believe in God which requires a faith.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

stevevw

inquisitive
Nov 4, 2013
15,946
1,720
Brisbane Qld Australia
✟320,403.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
The different traits will disappear as long as the animal is fully adapted to the environment. If for example the climate in some place cools down a lot, only the individuals of a species that can sustain the cold better will live and all the others die (some species will disappear entirely in the process), and those who can live in colder places will pass on their genes on the later generations, and those who are.born with tge genes passed by their parents will live, and those who are.born with tge "old genes" will die. Leave them a couple million years and they are fully adapted to the cold. I know it's difficult to imagine because those are a lot of years but it is roughly how it works.
Ps: i speak the little that i know about evolution, I'm not a biologist so i understand only the general idea of it, i probably made some mistakes but thats how i understand that works
Yes this is possible but that is something that will happen by tapping into the existing genetics available. There could be a capacity to switch on or off certain functions of existing genes. So the genes for hair are already there but the capacity to have thin or thick or long and short hair is something that is within the capacity of the existing genetics. But this capacity has its limits and wont allow an animal to continue to evolve into a completely different one. The variations within the Canis genus is great and as far as I understand the basic dog shape goes back a very long way. So the sizes of bodies, legs and heads as well as facial features can change but they are all still basically dog types.

But there is not evidence a dog is going to become a completely new creature like the way a Dino is said to become a bird or the dog like creature Pakicetus which is said to eventually become a whale. Which has nothing to do with a dog by the way yet looks more like a dog than a whale does.
upload_2015-8-15_17-59-31.jpeg

As I have posted tests show that there are limits to the evolution of a new function with would require multiple mutations. Remembering that a mutation is also basically a cost to the fitness of a creature and moving away from the natural state that the creature has in the first place which is already its best condition. Heres a Tasmanian tiger which looks a lot like the Pakicetus which also looks like a dog. Though these are not related it goes to show how observational evidence is hard to use as they do have similar features.
images
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

masterp48hd

Active Member
Aug 6, 2015
26
2
35
✟15,156.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Yes this is possible but that is something that will happen by tapping into the existing genetics available. There could be a capacity to switch on or off certain functions of existing genes. So the genes for hair are already there but the capacity to have thin or thick or long and short hair is something that is within the capacity of the existing genetics. But this capacity has its limits and wont allow an animal to continue to evolve into a completely different one. The variations within the Canis genus is great and as far as I understand the basic dog shape goes back a very long way. So the sizes of bodies, legs and heads as well as facial features can change but they are all still basically dog types.

But there is not evidence a dog is going to become a completely new creature like the way a Dino is said to become a bird or the dog like creature Pakicetus which is said to eventually become a whale. Which has nothing to do with a dog by the way yet looks more like a dog than a whale does.
View attachment 162083
As I have posted tests show that there are limits to the evolution of a new function with would require multiple mutations. Remembering that a mutation is also basically a cost to the fitness of a creature and moving away from the natural state that the creature has in the first place which is already its best condition. Heres a tasmanian tiger which looks a lot like the Pakicetus.
images
Yeah, to make radical changes ypu would probably need mutations, but most mutations won't lower the fitness of the animal beacuse they are neutral, and some may be beneficial, but i believe there is a chance of evolution from a species to a different one without mutations, like that island where a group of pigeons hot stranded.and they evolved into 2 different species (i think ones where good at eatin worms and the others i don't remember) that now can't even procreate with each other, and it wasn't a mutation, just tge adaptation to a new environment. And.i think that if the earth, for example started to flood (i know it's impossible) we could see mammals evolve into cetacean like creatures if they don't go extinct, with no mutations whatsoever, just the adaptation of the species to a whole new panorama
 
  • Like
Reactions: Larniavc
Upvote 0

stevevw

inquisitive
Nov 4, 2013
15,946
1,720
Brisbane Qld Australia
✟320,403.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Yeah, to make radical changes ypu would probably need mutations, but most mutations won't lower the fitness of the animal beacuse they are neutral, and some may be beneficial, but i believe there is a chance of evolution from a species to a different one without mutations, like that island where a group of pigeons hot stranded.and they evolved into 2 different species (i think ones where good at eatin worms and the others i don't remember) that now can't even procreate with each other, and it wasn't a mutation, just tge adaptation to a new environment. And.i think that if the earth, for example started to flood (i know it's impossible) we could see mammals evolve into cetacean like creatures if they don't go extinct, with no mutations whatsoever, just the adaptation of the species to a whole new panorama
Yes and also the Galapagos Islands where the finches Darwin observed to help make his theory change the sizes of their beaks to be able to crack the shells of seeds so they could continue to eat. The finches with bigger and stronger beaks survived and that feature became more dominate within the group of finches. But later it was observed that when thing returned back to the way they were the finches beaks also returned to how they were.

Still this is just a small change which would be available to happen from the existing genetics the finches already had. The evolution for change is limited and change make heaps of variations to birds. But it doesn't mean that those birds were once dinos and they morphed from reptile type creatures to birds. Evolution takes what is true to a limited ability and then extends that to give it more creative ability than is available. They do this because they link up similarities between certain creatures and speculate that this is because one came from the other. But genetic evidence shows us that this is not the case. The connection that they make through the Darwinian tree of life are often contradicted by the genetic evidence.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/sci...is-wrong-and-misleading-claim-scientists.html
http://www.examiner.com/article/cha...ientists-debunk-darwin-s-tree-of-life-diagram
 
Upvote 0

Larniavc

"Encourage him to keep talking. He's hilarious."
Jul 14, 2015
14,755
9,020
52
✟384,961.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
UK-Liberal-Democrats
But this capacity has its limits and wont allow an animal to continue to evolve into a completely different one.

What is the limiting factor? Are scales the same as feathers or different?
 
Upvote 0

stevevw

inquisitive
Nov 4, 2013
15,946
1,720
Brisbane Qld Australia
✟320,403.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
What is the limiting factor? Are scales the same as feathers or different?
The limiting factors are to do with a number of things. Fitness as most mutations have a cost to fitness, even so called beneficial mutations can have a small cost factor involved. Tests show that in fact mutations do the opposite of what is claimed by evolution and will have a harmful effect on a creature by taking away genetic info rather than adding info or increasing fitness and complexity. The capacity to evolve multi mutations that are needed even for small changes in the proteins to add new functions through a chance and random process.

Evolving from a Dino to a bird doesn't just involve changing scales into feathers. What about the dinos that dont have scales. Besides its not as simple as just citing one change. Feathers in themselves are a complex piece of body plan and involve many features that would need to be evolved through random mutations. Then you have the 100s of other functions, systems and other connections such as bone structure, muscles, tendons, ligaments, nerves, respiratory system changes, blood vessel changes and all the connections to the brain to tell everything to work properly. This is only a small example of what is needed to change one creature from another.
 
Upvote 0

Larniavc

"Encourage him to keep talking. He's hilarious."
Jul 14, 2015
14,755
9,020
52
✟384,961.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
UK-Liberal-Democrats
The limiting factors are to do with a number of things. Fitness as most mutations have a cost to fitness, even so called beneficial mutations can have a small cost factor involved. Tests show that in fact mutations do the opposite of what is claimed by evolution and will have a harmful effect on a creature by taking away genetic info rather than adding info or increasing fitness and complexity. The capacity to evolve multi mutations that are needed even for small changes in the proteins to add new functions through a chance and random process.

Evolving from a Dino to a bird doesn't just involve changing scales into feathers. What about the dinos that dont have scales. Besides its not as simple as just citing one change. Feathers in themselves are a complex piece of body plan and involve many features that would need to be evolved through random mutations. Then you have the 100s of other functions, systems and other connections such as bone structure, muscles, tendons, ligaments, nerves, respiratory system changes, blood vessel changes and all the connections to the brain to tell everything to work properly. This is only a small example of what is needed to change one creature from another.

I'm not sure your points are valid. But if you can support them with evidence I would be very interested to see my it.
 
Upvote 0

Archaeopteryx

Wanderer
Jul 1, 2007
22,229
2,608
✟78,240.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
This is a good example of how you choose to only see what you want to see and look at only part of the evidence and twist what a person has said. I said that Einstein acknowledge that there was some sort of spirit that governed the universe and life and not just God if you read what I put in the first place. You have changed it specifically to God. My point was that even people of scientific minds can have a faith that there is something that controls everything beyond that science.
Did I ever deny that some scientists also happen to be theists? I don't recall ever saying anything of that nature. Could you quote me on it?
(Every one who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the Universe-a spirit vastly superior to that of man, and one in the face of which we with our modest powers must feel humble).
That is clearly untrue. Many scientists are atheists.
But still Einstein said that an intelligent person would believe in God. But you only choose to focus on some of his quotes. In fact when you look at all of his quotes about God and belief the ones supporting a belief in God outnumber any where he has said that a belief in God is silly. So which is more true. If this evidence was taken into account the positive support for a belief in God from Einstein would be greater.
You're not listening, again. Back to your usual ways. Einstein's concept of god differed significantly from your own. Einstein's religion, to the extent that he had one, differed significantly from your own.
But this is all irrelevant. I could find another stack of scientists to support a belief in God.
So what?
My point was that scientists who use analytic thought and base their findings on falsifying the evidence can believe in God which requires a faith.
So what?
 
Upvote 0

Archaeopteryx

Wanderer
Jul 1, 2007
22,229
2,608
✟78,240.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
Yes this is possible but that is something that will happen by tapping into the existing genetics available. There could be a capacity to switch on or off certain functions of existing genes. So the genes for hair are already there but the capacity to have thin or thick or long and short hair is something that is within the capacity of the existing genetics. But this capacity has its limits and wont allow an animal to continue to evolve into a completely different one. The variations within the Canis genus is great and as far as I understand the basic dog shape goes back a very long way. So the sizes of bodies, legs and heads as well as facial features can change but they are all still basically dog types.

But there is not evidence a dog is going to become a completely new creature like the way a Dino is said to become a bird or the dog like creature Pakicetus which is said to eventually become a whale. Which has nothing to do with a dog by the way yet looks more like a dog than a whale does.
I've addressed this point of yours on several occasions. Yet here you are, repeating it again. I give up. You're just here to bloviate.
 
Upvote 0

KCfromNC

Regular Member
Apr 18, 2007
30,256
17,181
✟545,630.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
I agree but you shouldn't judge others before you know all the facts. It maybe a case of not being aware and misunderstandings.

I pointed out a misunderstanding was a possibility, so I have no idea what your point is supposed to be.

To me it was a case of mistaken identity.

Now who is judging without knowing all the facts?

Its like anything connected with religion

Creationists have a long history of dishonest in advancing their claims. I'm not condemning all of religion due to the actions of a small but motivated political group who happens to also claim to be religious.

In fact Bio complexity is primarily about ID and not creationism.

They're the same thing. ID is just creationism with the references to god hidden a bit.

I went back and checked the list he had and the only one I found that had any connection to what you would call creationism was the bio complexity one about finding the limits of complex adaptations that require multiple mutations in bacteria populations.

Yes, exactly. Like I said, it is discussing problems with one very specific hypothesis for the development of certain specific features.

You will have to show me as I am not sure which paper you are talking about.

Show you what, exactly?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

FrumiousBandersnatch

Well-Known Member
Mar 20, 2009
15,405
8,144
✟349,292.00
Faith
Atheist
You're not listening, again. Back to your usual ways. Einstein's concept of god differed significantly from your own. Einstein's religion, to the extent that he had one, differed significantly from your own.
He complained several times about being misrepresented in his beliefs, for example:
Einstein said:
It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.
(Albert Einstein, 1954, The Human Side, edited by Helen Dukas and Banesh Hoffman, Princeton University)
 
Upvote 0

KCfromNC

Regular Member
Apr 18, 2007
30,256
17,181
✟545,630.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
The works of Dr. Marcel P. Schutzenberger, "Algorithms and the Neo-Darwinian Theory of Evolution", and MIT professor Murray Eden’s "Inadequacies of Neo-Darwinian Evolution as a Scientific Theory", both found in Mathematical Challenges to the Neo-Darwinian Interpretation of Evolution (Philadelphia, Wistar Institute Press, 1967) give us a magnificent clue…The odds of 400 left-handed amino acids linking up by chance is less than (0.5)380, and, since the simplest cell would need over 120 proteins, the combined probability would be less than (0.5)380x120 = 1.08x10-13,727. This is an impossibly small probability, and we have not yet accounted for the specific sequences of amino acids needed, which would reduce the probability far more.


Now suppose that, once every nanosecond for 15 billion years, one billion attempts were being made in every cubic millimeter of seawater on a trillion trillion earthlike planets throughout the universe, to create these 120 proteins. Would there be time enough to obtain this at least once?


Just do the math: There are about 1027 nanoseconds in 15 billion years. Earth's oceans have a volume of approximately 1.3x109 cubic kilometers, or 1.3x1027 cubic millimeters. For a trillion trillion similar planets, this would be 1.3x1051 cubic millimeters of ocean water. If a billion attempts were made every nanosecond in each cubic millimeter of these oceans for 15 billion years, the total number of attempts would be about 6.15x1086. The probability of getting just one set of the needed proteins in all these attempts would be (6.15x1086)(1.08x10-13,727) = 6.64x10-13,641, which hardly makes a dent in the original vanishingly tiny probability of forming the needed proteins.


Let's upsize each of our assumptions to a googol or so:

1) instead of 15 billion (1.5x1010) years, make it 1.5x10100 years.
2) instead of a trillion trillion (1012x1012=1024) earthlike planets, make it 10100 earthlike planets.
3) instead of a billion (109) attempts every nanosecond (10-9 seconds) make it 10100 attempts

every 10-100 seconds.
4) instead of a single universe, suppose this were occurring in 10100 universes.


Have we now overcome the nearly impossible odds of forming the necessary proteins? All we need to do is to update the exponent on the power of 10. In other words, multiply our original estimate by:


10(100-10) = 1090 to account for the increased number of years
10(100-24) = 1076 to account for the increased number of planets
10(100-9) = 1091 to account for the increased number of attempts per nanosecond
10(100-9) = 1091 to account for the increased sample rate (formerly nanoseconds)
10100 to account for the increased number of universes


This increases our original number of attempts from 6.15x1086 to 6.15x10534, and the probability of ever getting the needed proteins increases to a grand total of 6.64x10-13,193. This is still vanishingly small, and to obtain such "favorable" odds, we had to make some ridiculously generous assumptions.


We can see by the subsequent probabilities that there is not enough time on more than a billion planets in more than 15 billion years to accomplish the formation of life by chance.


So far, all we have is 120 chains of 400 left-handed amino acids. We don't yet have proteins—these amino acids need to be carefully sequenced in order to produce the specific proteins needed by a "simple" living cell. It would not suffice to have 120 proteins all of the same kind, since different kinds of proteins fulfill different functions in the metabolism of a cell. We need 120 specific proteins, which means each of these proteins needs to have a specific sequence of amino acids. The odds of randomly getting 120 proteins having just the right sequences is again so extremely unlikely as to be altogether impossible.


Okay, so for the sake of argument, suppose the impossible happened, and the correct 120 proteins somehow formed at the same time and all managed to come together in the same cell-sized droplet of organic soup. We still would not have life. We would also need …


  • DNA—a molecule in the shape of a "double-helix" consisting of an extremely long sequence of base-pairs that encode the instructions needed to create a living cell.
  • The correct instructions encoded in the DNA. These instructions would need to contain volumes upon volumes of specialized information, describing how to build all the macro-molecular parts of the cell, how to sequence all the proteins, and how to assemble these parts properly (in relation to one another) to form a living cell.
  • RNA and other specialized molecules that
1) correctly decode the instructions in the DNA, and

2) follow these instructions to build a new cell.


In essence, this is similar to a complex computerized factory made of a variety of extremely complex biological materials.


This decoding machinery would need to come into existence at the very same time and place as the DNA, and, to top it off, the instructions for building this decoding machinery would also need to be encoded in the DNA, so that it would be inherited by the offspring.


All these separate INTER-DEEPENDENT specifically functional parts and pieces—the 400 different kinds of proteins, the DNA with its pre-coded instructions, the RNA with its ability to decode and follow the instructions in the DNA, along with numerous other features—cannot just be dumped together. They must be carefully assembled and interconnected in order to obtain a living cell—even the simplest living cell possible.


Truly, the odds of life just developing by random molecular interactions over the life of the universe (or of a googol of universes, for that matter), may be considered totally impossible. This fact has been acknowledged by evolutionists. Either that or the Universe has to be hundreds of trillions of years old.


Marcel P. Schutzenberger said “... there is no chance (< 10-1000) to see this mechanism [mutation-selection] appear spontaneously and, if it did, even less for it to remain...Thus, to conclude, we believe there is a considerable gap in the neo-Darwinian theory of evolution, and we believe this gap to be of such a nature that it cannot be bridged within the current conception of biology.”


Murray Eden in his work agreed with this analysis, saying “…It is our contention that if 'random' is given serious and crucial interpretation from a probabilistic point of view, the randomness postulate is highly implausible and that an adequate scientific theory of evolution must await the elucidation of new natural laws—physical, physico-chemical, and biological."

They only say this NOT because they are creationists or ID theorists (who are not all creationists) but because so many DO BELIEVE that life arose from non-living matter via chemical coincidence over time.

So how many Evolutionists, Biologists (creationist or not) and Mathematicians must one site? How much evidence will it take for you to see? Yes the processes follow laws and principles (information) which I am glad so many of your camp now finally admit but that has always been our point, but the difference is what each believes this means....and I would like to point out that evolutionists have touted and tried to reason abiogenesis for over a century (to no avail), and if the former is true then the latter simply cannot be true...either the processes FOLLOW the laws and principles (biogenesis) or they make them as they develop (abiogenesis)...if the plan was already in place this information has to have a source.

Still pretending chemistry is random after admitting you know it isn't. I see. Whatever it takes to keep the faith going, I guess. Ends justify the means and all that. And nice job cherry-picking results from 50 year old research to try and attack modern biology. That seems fair - after all, everyone knows that every biologist quit work as a scientist during the 70s so stuff from the Kennedy administration is as close to the cutting edge as we're going to ever get.

Anyway, I'm still waiting for the context of the quote you posted a few days ago. How's the search going?
 
Upvote 0

KCfromNC

Regular Member
Apr 18, 2007
30,256
17,181
✟545,630.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
IMO information has to precede aggregation

What's your academic and professional background? If we're supposed to accept your opinion we have a right to know if that opinion is based on anything of value of if you're just an amateur making stuff up.
 
Upvote 0