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Natural selection v Intelligent design

KCfromNC

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Still waiting for the context of that quote you posted. How's the search going?

The conclusion you'd want us to draw from that fact is that physics is wrong and god must be intelligently pushing things to the ground, just like it is intelligently putting together every individual bit of DNA for each cell which reproduces. Since it can't be "random", it's all magic. You're ignoring the obvious - natural non-random processes exist.

Again this is not anything like what I said or implied. Physics is not wrong (though all theories are not correct). Physics in fact works on the premise that the Universe is very lawful and that all things that are effect have a cause. It notes, discovers, and works with reliable laws and principles that guide actions. The second absurd lie is that I said if it is not random (which it clearly is not) then it must be magic.

Then what was your point, exactly? Since you've admitted that the processes in question aren't random all of the probabilities relying on that assumption are obviously wrong. I can't understand why you went down that pointless tangent in the first place.

(that's all) and that information precedes form and function....information is NOT matter or energy, so...therefore an intangible precedes and effects the tangible outcome.

Citation needed

I never mentioned "God"....or "magic"...

You used a bunch of ID/creationist sources. Why post them as authoritative if you don't believe what they're saying?

So in my opinion based on 20 years of study there are no cells evolving from inanimate matter by chance

And here we are, back at pretending that chemistry and biology are totally random. Round and round we go.
 
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KCfromNC

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I dont understand. What easy stuff we can all check.

The easy stuff is the fact that one of the sources was an ID/creationist journal, despite claims to the contrary.

No the bio complexity paper does have a lot to do with proving that evolution may be unlikely. It is saying in the test they had done on bacteria that the likelihood of producing the several mutations needed to make a small change of function in the proteins would not happen in the entire history of the planet earth existing. In other words you may as well say its impossible.

Yes, it disproved one particular hypothesis about how a certain feature might have evolved. This has nothing to do with evolution in general being unlikely. Read the paper for yourself.

Thats fair enough and you are entitled to your opinion.

It is actually a quote from Einstein, no opinion needed. Keep on trying to dodge and weave, though, I find the dancing entertaining.
 
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stevevw

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monicks-einstein.png
AS I said He was an enigmatic man.
 
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stevevw

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The easy stuff is the fact that one of the sources was an ID/creationist journal, despite claims to the contrary.
It doesn't matter, it is still an open access peer reviewed journal. It is subject to the same rigors as any non creationist journal. It is still based on the science and the person doing the testing is still an expert in their field and knows what they are doing. You are rejecting the source based on an its association which is against the rights of individuals and groups.

Yes, it disproved one particular hypothesis about how a certain feature might have evolved. This has nothing to do with evolution in general being unlikely. Read the paper for yourself.
Well it goes to the heart of the evolutionary mechanism. The core tenet of evolution is that creatures can change their genetic functions through gaining new genetic info and complexity from mutations and natural selection. If there is doubt that the mutations can do this in the first place then there is doubt for evolution. Well at least for the traditional darwinian evolution. Evolution as far as a creature drawing on existing genetic info is different and this can add variations to the same creature within certain limits.

It is actually a quote from Einstein, no opinion needed. Keep on trying to dodge and weave, though, I find the dancing entertaining.
Fair enough, I am glad I can be of some use and entertainment.
 
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stevevw

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Who did not share your religious convictions.
So what about his other quotes. Which ones are correct. It seems he was a man of many beliefs and convictions.

In view of such harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human mind, am able to recognize, there are yet people who say there is no God. But what really makes me angry is that they quote me for the support of such views.

images


Albert Einstein
 
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KCfromNC

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It doesn't matter

Being truthful and correct does matter to me. I know not everyone has that issue.

You are rejecting the source based on an its association which is against the rights of individuals and groups.

No, I'm pointing out that the claim that all of these were from non-creationist sources was incorrect.

Well it goes to the heart of the evolutionary mechanism.

Nope. Read the paper and see - you'll not find any claims that the paper has anything to do with anything other than evaluating a specific hypothesis.

The core tenet of evolution is that creatures can change their genetic functions through gaining new genetic info and complexity from mutations and natural selection. If there is doubt that the mutations can do this in the first place then there is doubt for evolution.

Good thing this paper provides nothing of the sort, then.
 
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stevevw

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Perhaps you should have asked yourself this before pretending that his religious opinions somehow made yours more reasonable.
I am not really trying to do this. A single mans belief is not going to make my belief more reasonable. Even if he had all the best quotes that totally supported what I believed that doesn't prove anything. I am merely showing that even people who believe in science also can have room in their minds and hearts to believe in God.
 
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stevevw

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Yeah, just not yours.
I wasn't aiming to quote him for that reason. But even if he believes in an intelligent being behind existence and life its not you belief either. It is certainly closer to mine that yours if you want to look at it that way. I was quoting Einstein because as an intelligent man with an analytic mind he could still see that not everything was about equations and materialistic evidence. He could see probably better than most that there had to be something behind what he could see. He knew that everything was too amazingly orchestrated to be some random accident. Thats mainly what I have been saying all along and you dont have to believe in a particular God to be able to come to this conclusion.
 
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Archaeopteryx

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I wasn't aiming to quote him for that reason. But even if he believes in an intelligent being behind existence and life its not you belief either.
I never sought to deputise Einstein to my argument.
It is certainly closer to mine that yours if you want to look at it that way.
He called your beliefs "childish," dude.
I was quoting Einstein because as an intelligent man with an analytic mind he could still see that not everything was about equations and materialistic evidence. He could see probably better than most that there had to be something behind what he could see. He knew that everything was too amazingly orchestrated to be some random accident. Thats mainly what I have been saying all along and you dont have to believe in a particular God to be able to come to this conclusion.
That's not what he said.
 
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stevevw

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Being truthful and correct does matter to me. I know not everyone has that issue.
I agree but you shouldn't judge others before you know all the facts. It maybe a case of not being aware and misunderstandings. It doesn't always have to be so intentional as you are implying. In fact to falsely accuse is just as bad.

No, I'm pointing out that the claim that all of these were from non-creationist sources was incorrect.
Yep I can see that. You have been pointing that out for some time and making a big thing out of it. To me it was a case of mistaken identity. But what I find even worse is that you are making a big issue and case out of it in the first place. Its like an inquisition type proceeding is mounted because a site is connected to a religious one in the first place. Its like anything connected with religion is rejected immediately not because it is wrong but because well "its connected with religion only" which is discriminatory. Its like saying someone is connected with an ethnic group so therefore they are inferior. I believe you have to allow everyone to have their say and then decide based on the evidence and facts whether it is correct or not. But dont reject it before it even has a chance.

Your making some big case like we have to defend it and nothing has even been established yet. In fact Bio complexity is primarily about ID and not creationism. ID likes to pride itself on the science and tries to disassociate itself from religion for the very fact that many people dont even give anything that challenges the norm of evolution especially if it has the slightest whiff of religion connected with it. In my line of work even if you know someone is a particular type that may be known for something bad they have to be treated just as equitably and given the same chance as anyone else for having their say and their human rights.

Nope. Read the paper and see - you'll not find any claims that the paper has anything to do with anything other than evaluating a specific hypothesis.
OK maybe we are talking about two different papers. I went back and checked the list he had and the only one I found that had any connection to what you would call creationism was the bio complexity one about finding the limits of complex adaptations that require multiple mutations in bacteria populations. Though the link that was supplied doesn't open up so you have to copy the link and Google it to get to the original paper.

The Limits of Complex Adaptation: An Analysis Based on a Simple Model of Structured Bacterial Populations
http://bio-complexity.org/ojs/index.php/main/article/view/BIO-C.2010.4

Good thing this paper provides nothing of the sort, then.
You will have to show me as I am not sure which paper you are talking about.
 
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stevevw

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Has Behe returned with a comment? Is this an ongoing area of research? And I'm still not seeing the relevance.
I am not sure I will have to look. But the point is through all their counter claims the time factor is still to long for evolution even from Durrett and Schmidt. Theres no real relevance only that you dismissed Behes paper based on the one from Durrett and Schmidt and I was showing that there was further papers that dismissed what they said which you didn't take into consideration.
 
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bhsmte

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Yes he was an enigmatic man but he definitely thought there was something behind the science. He could see that both the science and belief were important.

I like someone like Tesla who had this insight into the power of things beyond what we see. He realized that there was this practical power in which we could tap into to have an effect on our lives both scientifically and spiritually.
images

Einstein clearly stated; a belief in a personal God was "childish". There is no debating his clear position, on personal Gods.
 
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pshun2404

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The works of Dr. Marcel P. Schutzenberger, "Algorithms and the Neo-Darwinian Theory of Evolution", and MIT professor Murray Eden’s "Inadequacies of Neo-Darwinian Evolution as a Scientific Theory", both found in Mathematical Challenges to the Neo-Darwinian Interpretation of Evolution (Philadelphia, Wistar Institute Press, 1967) give us a magnificent clue…The odds of 400 left-handed amino acids linking up by chance is less than (0.5)380, and, since the simplest cell would need over 120 proteins, the combined probability would be less than (0.5)380x120 = 1.08x10-13,727. This is an impossibly small probability, and we have not yet accounted for the specific sequences of amino acids needed, which would reduce the probability far more.


Now suppose that, once every nanosecond for 15 billion years, one billion attempts were being made in every cubic millimeter of seawater on a trillion trillion earthlike planets throughout the universe, to create these 120 proteins. Would there be time enough to obtain this at least once?


Just do the math: There are about 1027 nanoseconds in 15 billion years. Earth's oceans have a volume of approximately 1.3x109 cubic kilometers, or 1.3x1027 cubic millimeters. For a trillion trillion similar planets, this would be 1.3x1051 cubic millimeters of ocean water. If a billion attempts were made every nanosecond in each cubic millimeter of these oceans for 15 billion years, the total number of attempts would be about 6.15x1086. The probability of getting just one set of the needed proteins in all these attempts would be (6.15x1086)(1.08x10-13,727) = 6.64x10-13,641, which hardly makes a dent in the original vanishingly tiny probability of forming the needed proteins.


Let's upsize each of our assumptions to a googol or so:

1) instead of 15 billion (1.5x1010) years, make it 1.5x10100 years.
2) instead of a trillion trillion (1012x1012=1024) earthlike planets, make it 10100 earthlike planets.
3) instead of a billion (109) attempts every nanosecond (10-9 seconds) make it 10100 attempts

every 10-100 seconds.
4) instead of a single universe, suppose this were occurring in 10100 universes.


Have we now overcome the nearly impossible odds of forming the necessary proteins? All we need to do is to update the exponent on the power of 10. In other words, multiply our original estimate by:


10(100-10) = 1090 to account for the increased number of years
10(100-24) = 1076 to account for the increased number of planets
10(100-9) = 1091 to account for the increased number of attempts per nanosecond
10(100-9) = 1091 to account for the increased sample rate (formerly nanoseconds)
10100 to account for the increased number of universes


This increases our original number of attempts from 6.15x1086 to 6.15x10534, and the probability of ever getting the needed proteins increases to a grand total of 6.64x10-13,193. This is still vanishingly small, and to obtain such "favorable" odds, we had to make some ridiculously generous assumptions.


We can see by the subsequent probabilities that there is not enough time on more than a billion planets in more than 15 billion years to accomplish the formation of life by chance.


So far, all we have is 120 chains of 400 left-handed amino acids. We don't yet have proteins—these amino acids need to be carefully sequenced in order to produce the specific proteins needed by a "simple" living cell. It would not suffice to have 120 proteins all of the same kind, since different kinds of proteins fulfill different functions in the metabolism of a cell. We need 120 specific proteins, which means each of these proteins needs to have a specific sequence of amino acids. The odds of randomly getting 120 proteins having just the right sequences is again so extremely unlikely as to be altogether impossible.


Okay, so for the sake of argument, suppose the impossible happened, and the correct 120 proteins somehow formed at the same time and all managed to come together in the same cell-sized droplet of organic soup. We still would not have life. We would also need …


  • DNA—a molecule in the shape of a "double-helix" consisting of an extremely long sequence of base-pairs that encode the instructions needed to create a living cell.
  • The correct instructions encoded in the DNA. These instructions would need to contain volumes upon volumes of specialized information, describing how to build all the macro-molecular parts of the cell, how to sequence all the proteins, and how to assemble these parts properly (in relation to one another) to form a living cell.
  • RNA and other specialized molecules that
1) correctly decode the instructions in the DNA, and

2) follow these instructions to build a new cell.


In essence, this is similar to a complex computerized factory made of a variety of extremely complex biological materials.


This decoding machinery would need to come into existence at the very same time and place as the DNA, and, to top it off, the instructions for building this decoding machinery would also need to be encoded in the DNA, so that it would be inherited by the offspring.


All these separate INTER-DEEPENDENT specifically functional parts and pieces—the 400 different kinds of proteins, the DNA with its pre-coded instructions, the RNA with its ability to decode and follow the instructions in the DNA, along with numerous other features—cannot just be dumped together. They must be carefully assembled and interconnected in order to obtain a living cell—even the simplest living cell possible.


Truly, the odds of life just developing by random molecular interactions over the life of the universe (or of a googol of universes, for that matter), may be considered totally impossible. This fact has been acknowledged by evolutionists. Either that or the Universe has to be hundreds of trillions of years old.


Marcel P. Schutzenberger said “... there is no chance (< 10-1000) to see this mechanism [mutation-selection] appear spontaneously and, if it did, even less for it to remain...Thus, to conclude, we believe there is a considerable gap in the neo-Darwinian theory of evolution, and we believe this gap to be of such a nature that it cannot be bridged within the current conception of biology.”


Murray Eden in his work agreed with this analysis, saying “…It is our contention that if 'random' is given serious and crucial interpretation from a probabilistic point of view, the randomness postulate is highly implausible and that an adequate scientific theory of evolution must await the elucidation of new natural laws—physical, physico-chemical, and biological."

They only say this NOT because they are creationists or ID theorists (who are not all creationists) but because so many DO BELIEVE that life arose from non-living matter via chemical coincidence over time.

So how many Evolutionists, Biologists (creationist or not) and Mathematicians must one site? How much evidence will it take for you to see? Yes the processes follow laws and principles (information) which I am glad so many of your camp now finally admit but that has always been our point, but the difference is what each believes this means....and I would like to point out that evolutionists have touted and tried to reason abiogenesis for over a century (to no avail), and if the former is true then the latter simply cannot be true...either the processes FOLLOW the laws and principles (biogenesis) or they make them as they develop (abiogenesis)...if the plan was already in place this information has to have a source.
 
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pshun2404

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IMO information has to precede aggregation (even in the initial formation of stars and planets).The fact that the formation happened the same way in so many places yielding the almost exact same results demonstrates the presence of laws and principles already at work guiding or limiting the process to a set of specific parameters making mostly all stars form in the same way, and functioning the same way, as a result. The same is true with the formation of planetoids. This pre-star/planet “program” was in place at the Big Bang moment. Information was thus present BEFORE and somewhat responsible for the formation of even these most basic forms and functions.


Information is by nature that which informs. It is a set pattern or an amalgam of guide lines or possibly instructions followed or adhered to or something that enlightens and provides insight and it can be something we derive FROM already extant forms and functions.

When caught up in gravity without the power strong enough to overpower its effect, one becomes subject to it. The fact that mass would exhibit gravitational force preceded the existence of mass (in order to cause it to form) or it did not, and followed.


Also information can be that from which knowledge and data can be derived. Therefore information creates more information whether or not anyone is there to observe it. Information does not necessitate an “observer” to exist. It can BE, and then later realized and observed. At its most basic level, information equals the propagation of cause and effect in any system whatever the cause of whatever effect we may discuss (even the Universe itself, then and now).


So here is my edict…Information for something must precede information as something, from which an observer investigator can get to the information in something, by accumulating information about that something that we may then use or apply for something other.


The mass/energy of initial space/time took form according to extant qualities of space/time that we describe as laws and guiding principles, and this information was/is not matter or energy. It may or may not have been more simple at earlier times, but without doubt either the primary or primordial information is a non-material function of this Universe, or it preceded it from some other source.


So if there was a beginning (Big Bang) what happened with and within matter/energy since the Universe became was a following of or being subject to certain laws and principles already inherent therein. The presence of such sophisticated unavoidable information that form and function depend on (to me) indicates an informing intelligence. Matter/energy themselves did not devise the laws and principles before being subject to them! That is logically absurd and irrational to assume. The information preceded the aggregation of both non-living AND living things and they follow different rules. In my opinion (totally subjective I admit) the various and eventual forms of aggregation have purpose which they fulfill once they are completely conceived or formed, and all information has a source. Please theorize IYO on what that source is, not on what it is not? Is it the Universe itself (thus ascribing intelligence to the Universe) asserting it is capable of devising complex systems of guidance and direction which it itself then follows and adheres to? Is this essential information source matter and energy? What is your opinion based on what you have learned? (Again do not go into what you think it is not but what you think it is)
 
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stevevw

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They would revert to a.point, but when they are fully evolved into.another.species (for instance a pug or Rottweiler or.pitbull whatever) they won't become wolves, i mean they would porbably die anyways because we.artificially chose those.who were more dossile and friendly to humans so they were made dependant to humans, they wpuld.most certainly die in.the wilderness. Artificial selection will always select.the most useful for the one who selects them, because the fittest to sustain wolve's habitats will always be wolves. And animals don't evolve if It's not necessary, if the climate or the predators or s9me factor changes the species will remain at a stable evolution level
So if all the artificially selected variations will die and what we are left with is the original and natural state that was created in the wild how can evolution work. This is evolution in reverse. Any variation away from the natural state which is the fittest and best will be weaker and not be selected in the end. What we see in the breeds of dogs is just about every conceivable feature created. There isn't to much more to be made. Yet all of these things are moving away from the natural wild type and therefore a cost to fitness.

So if there happens to be a very very rare benefit that will be selected chances are its only a variation of existing genes which will fix itself in the population. But this requires the existing genetics and nothing new is added as far as new features. It may add a different color or thicker coat or longer legs. But the genetics for hair, color and size are already there. But if there was some new beneficial trait that made some new feature it would be very very rare so it would take more time to evolve. More time that the earth has been around.

Because then you would need additional very rare beneficial mutations that will continue to be in line with that new feature and continue to be selected and so forth adding new rare additional mutations each time. Considering that the mutations are primarily a copying mistake away from the natural and best and mostly are a cost to fitness it all seems impossible.
 
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