Natural Evil

[Achilles6129]

“Those who will not reason, are bigots, those who cannot, are fools, and those who dare not, are slaves.” -George Gordon Byron.

So because I said the Bible was evidence, I'm a bigot, a fool, or a slave. Do you believe this about everyone who thinks the Bible is evidence?

 

[variant]

No, you don't and to assume you do clearly shows you ignore anything you don't want to read.

As my initial post and every post since... Natural disasters are a result of an imperfect world, made imperfect by sin. I did not say nTural disasters were created by sin, if I had you would make a valid point but to say so is foolish and inaccurate.

Sin made the world, that was once without blemish, imperfect. As a result of the imperfection we are left with a dark world full of suffering. Until we can live without sin we must all know suffering.

We don't have a basis for any of this to be true. So yeah I'm dismissing without evidence that which is presented without it.

 

[kristina411]

So do you agree or disagree with my statement that moral (or immoral) acts do not change the laws of physics?

Change the laws? No. God is unchanging and He created the universe and all within, including physics.

Moral, and immoral acts were the cause for God to allow suffering upon the earth, including natural disasters.

 

[variant]

So because I said the Bible was evidence, I'm a bigot, a fool, or a slave. Do you believe this about everyone who thinks the Bible is evidence?

I believe this about anyone who uses the bible as evidence against any and all observations without fail yes.

 

[kristina411]

We don't have a basis for any of this to be true. So yeah I'm dismissing without evidence that which is presented without it.

Lol I dont believe you even know which side of this circle you are on any more. I have a date with my husband tonight, take care.

 

[Achilles6129]

It's not just my point of view. If human sin effected the weather it would be in evidence.

Depends on what you think "evidence" is. You won't accept Scripture as evidence.

Also, I wasn't necessarily saying that human sin affected the weather. All that I was saying is that Scripture is clear that some natural evils have been caused by human sin and rebellion against God. Now if some natural evils have been caused by human sin and rebellion against God, then it's possible that other natural evils are caused by the same. Also, some natural evils in the future will be caused by human sin and rebellion against God (see Revelation).

There are storms on Jupiter. Are you suggesting that only the storms on earth are caused by sin?

Storms on Jupiter don't affect humans. I'm saying that theologically speaking, some natural evils that affect humans have been caused by rebellion against God. Storms on Jupiter are irrelevant to the discussion.

I don't care what your perception of reality is I care what you can demonstrate.

It's demonstrated by Scripture.

Scripture doesn't demonstrate anything other than the perceptions of it's adherents, so it can't possibly be a common basis for truth.

You're missing the part where it's the word of God. It thus demonstrates the perceptions of God himself.

 

[KnowtheSilence]

So here are a few Biblical passages about natural evil. Both sides can read them and then comment from there:

...

Thoughts?

These verses are saying that YHWH caused/allowed natural disasters as punishments. Like I said in my initial response, I can imagine different reasons that a god might cause/allow natural disasters, and that would be one of them. But that doesn't really help solve the problem unless there is good reason to think that there is a God that actually behaves this way (and you'd need better evidence than Bible verses); "God exists AND uses natural disasters to punish people" is less likely to be true than simply "God exists." And then you have to explain how the concept of God being perfectly good can be reconciled with God using such widespread and inelegant methods for punishing supposed wrongdoers.

 

[kristina411]

I believe this about anyone who uses the bible as evidence against any and all observations without fail yes.

And thus begins your bigotry (towards Christians), foolishness(towards your closed mind) and slavery (to worldy beliefs)

 

[Achilles6129]

I believe this about anyone who uses the bible as evidence against any and all observations without fail yes.

Obviously, if the Bible is the word of the Creator of the universe, as it claims to be, and as there is good evidence for, then it would trump any naturalistic observations.

 

[kristina411]

Good night to all, I have a much needed hot date (consisting of loud music and yummy pizza) with my wonderful husband ��

 

[essentialsaltes]

Change the laws? No. God is unchanging and He created the universe and all within, including physics.

Moral, and immoral acts were the cause for God to allow suffering upon the earth, including natural disasters.

Previously, you said "Hurricanes/tornadoes/etc are a result of living in an imperfect world that was made imperfect the moment sin entered its dwellings."

So did the laws of physics change 'the moment sin entered' or not?

You say they didn't change, so hurricanes were possible before sin entered the world. But you also say hurricanes are part of an imperfect world caused by sin entering the world.

Your position seems inconsistent.

 

[variant]

Depends on what you think "evidence" is. You won't accept Scripture as evidence.

Right because it is unreasonable to do so.

If you want to get into the epistemology of why we should accept scripture as evidence then feel free.

Also, I wasn't necessarily saying that human sin affected the weather. All that I was saying is that Scripture is clear that some natural evils have been caused by human sin and rebellion against God. Now if some natural evils have been caused by human sin and rebellion against God, then it's possible that other natural evils are caused by the same. Also, some natural evils in the future will be caused by human sin and rebellion against God (see Revelation).

Given evidence of things like meteor impacts and massive geological upheavals, and mass extinction events before there being humans on earth I can not support anything you are saying.

You are simply wrong.

Storms on Jupiter don't affect humans. I'm saying that theologically speaking, some natural evils that affect humans have been caused by rebellion against God. Storms on Jupiter are irrelevant to the discussion.

I am saying that hurricanes predate humans and they happen in places with no humans, so it stands to reason that they aren't caused by human sin.

It's demonstrated by Scripture.

Right which would be acceptable to a reasonable human being given radically different epistemology.

You're missing the part where it's the word of God. It thus demonstrates the perceptions of God himself.

Scripture is true because it is the word of God, and it is the word of God because it says it is.

Yeah sounds pretty air tight to me.

 

[Achilles6129]

These verses are saying that YHWH caused/allowed natural disasters as punishments. Like I said in my initial response, I can imagine different reasons that a god might cause/allow natural disasters, and that would be one of them.

Agreed.

But that doesn't really help solve the problem unless there is good reason to think that there is a God that actually behaves this way (and you'd need better evidence than Bible verses); "God exists AND uses natural disasters to punish people" is less likely to be true than simply "God exists."

Perhaps God uses *some* natural disasters to punish people. Perhaps others are the result of his lack of intervention. Now we could ask why he doesn't intervene to stop a natural disaster, which I think would be a fair question.

And then you have to explain how the concept of God being perfectly good can be reconciled with God using such widespread and inelegant methods for punishing supposed wrongdoers.

This comes down to perception. What you or someone else might call "inelegant" might actually be quite elegant. But you are correct in that natural evils are apparently indiscriminate, yes, in the sense that they affect everyone in a given area (at least physically).

 

[bhsmte]

From your point of view, not from mine.

And that's fine, you can claim it is evidence, but I look at claims in a book as just that claims, without objective evidence to support them.

 

[kristina411]

Previously, you said "Hurricanes/tornadoes/etc are a result of living in an imperfect world that was made imperfect the moment sin entered its dwellings."

So did the laws of physics change 'the moment sin entered' or not?

You say they didn't change, so hurricanes were possible before sin entered the world. But you also say hurricanes are part of an imperfect world caused by sin entering the world.

Your position seems inconsistent.

The "laws of physics" did not exist, as we know them, in the garden. It was a completely different world until sin accompanied it. This is where others may agree, and that's your right. It wouldn't be "faith" or "belief" if every person knew with certainty of its accuracy. I really do have to be going though lol

 

[variant]

Obviously, if the Bible is the word of the Creator of the universe, as it claims to be, and as there is good evidence for, then it would trump any naturalistic observations.

People who don't have one of the aforementioned relationships with reason don't accept circular arguments.

 

[variant]

And thus begins your bigotry (towards Christians), foolishness(towards your closed mind) and slavery (to worldy beliefs)

I have a bad attitude about people who don't reason themselves into their opinions, or obstinately ignore objective evidence, you are right.

I should try to be nicer.

 

[bhsmte]

Hi,

I think she's talking about human evil in which case suffering (as the result of the sin of the perpetrator) would be caused by sin. That's quite obvious and true. However, the suffering obviously wouldn't be caused (at least as far as we know) by the sins of the victim.

But this thread isn't about human evil, it's about natural evil.

She stated natural disasters (which cause suffering) are the result of sin.

 

[Achilles6129]

And that's fine, you can claim it is evidence, but I look at claims in a book as just that claims, without objective evidence to support them.

This isn't a thread about evidence supporting the authenticity of Scripture. I think we might actually get this thread removed for talking about such a topic in this forum. However, if we are allowed to talk about it, then someone could absolutely start a thread about it or I'd be happy to do so.

 

[Achilles6129]

Right because it is unreasonable to do so.

I disagree.

Given evidence of things like meteor impacts and massive geological upheavals, and mass extinction events before there being humans on earth I can not support anything you are saying.

You are simply wrong.

I don't believe in evolution.

I am saying that hurricanes predate humans and they happen in places with no humans, so it stands to reason that they aren't caused by human sin.

See above. Also, I didn't say that all natural evils were the cause of human sin. I said that some in the past were (as per Scripture). If some in the past were, then *perhaps* some of them today (and historically) were as well. And certainly some will be in the future, per Revelation.

Scripture is true because it is the word of God, and it is the word of God because it says it is.

Not at all. Any book can claim to be the word of God, that's meaningless. What I'm saying is that there is good evidence that the Bible is the word of God. I don't think we're allowed to discuss that on this forum, but if we are I would be more than happy to get into a discussion about it.