Natural Evil

[kristina411]

No, they are the result of fluid dynamics. Moral (or immoral) acts don't change the laws of physics.

Christianity does not dispute the laws of physics, merely states the lawmaker.

 

[variant]

Christianity does not dispute the laws of physics, merely states the lawmaker.

I think you must dispute the laws of physics if you think hurricanes are caused by people sinning.

 

[Achilles6129]

Here are some interesting links on the subject of natural evil:

Philosophy of Religion » The Argument from Natural Evil

God?s Permitting Natural Evil | Reasonable Faith

What About Natural Evil? | Reasonable Faith

 

[Achilles6129]

No. I have seen no evidence to show that believers aren't hit by hurricanes, but plenty of evidence that suggests that they are.

Do you actually think unbelievers are going to take the Bible to be true over their own eyes?

Read the passages I quoted. I'm just showing you what Scripture says - you're free to disagree.

 

[Achilles6129]

I think you must dispute the laws of physics if you think hurricanes are caused by people sinning.

Who made the laws of physics? Isn't it the person they're sinning against? Also, would you like to comment on those Biblical passages I posted earlier on natural evil?

 

[kristina411]

Natural disasters cause suffering, wouldn't you say?

And here is a direct quote from you, taken from post #39:

Hurricanes/tornadoes/etc are a result of living in an imperfect world that was made imperfect the moment sin entered its dwellings
^that is my explanation.


This is a claim, not an explanation. As I stated, I can claim, natural disasters happen because a creator likes people to suffer. My point is just as valid as yours and we are still waiting for you to present evidence, to support your statement above in bold.

Lol I said MY explanation did I not?
And did I not already agree that not all would agree?

It is a constant demand for "proof" but when proof is given it is either ignored or topic changed (hmm... Wonder how we came back from suffering to disaster?) you can nit pick, as the users in this forum do, and try to find flaws but it just shows the closed mindedness and stubborness of this board.

No one demands your proof for denial, and when you explain yourself it is not ignored but is gone into detail. But it is not reciprocated.
I find it deeply sad and overly ironic.

 

[bhsmte]

Read the passages I quoted. I'm just showing you what Scripture says - you're free to disagree.

Scripture is not evidence. It is a theological position and claim.

 

[bhsmte]

Lol I said MY explanation did I not?
And did I not already agree that not all would agree?

It is a constant demand for "proof" but when proof is given it is either ignored or topic changed (hmm... Wonder how we came back from suffering to disaster?) you can nit pick, as the users in this forum do, and try to find flaws but it just shows the closed mindedness and stubborness of this board.

No one demands your proof for denial, and when you explain yourself it is not ignored but is gone into detail. But it is not reciprocated.
I find it deeply sad and overly ironic.

Irony, indeed.

You state above, proof was given. Could you point me to this "proof"?

 

[variant]

Who made the laws of physics? Isn't it the person they're sinning against?

I'm an atheist. I don't think the state of the natural universe is determined by the sins of humans.

It's an odd claim all around.

I mean there are storms on Jupiter too, they don't seem to be a likely result of human sin to me...

Also, would you like to comment on those Biblical passages I posted earlier on natural evil?

No not really.

 

[variant]

Read the passages I quoted. I'm just showing you what Scripture says - you're free to disagree.

The statements made don't seem to have any verifiable basis in reality so I wonder why you think I would believe them.

 

[Achilles6129]

Scripture is not evidence. It is a theological position and claim.

From your point of view, not from mine.

 

[kristina411]

Irony, indeed.

You state above, proof was given. Could you point me to this "proof"?

I said proof of most suffering being a direct result of sin. I never claimed proof to natural disasters.
Proof that suffering being often a direct result of sin... Abuse, murder, rape, theft, adultry, pedophillia, the list goes on. The poster (who mysteriously vanished-oh wait I'm posting to you lol. Hard to keep up when I am reply quoted when I am responding to someone else entirely) asked where my proof is that suffering is often a result of a person sinning or being around those who sin and this is the proof. I dont get how this could even be denied.
I explained diseases and natural disasters as MY belief based on my experience and the Bible, I gave proof of how suffering was often a direct result of sin. That was the proof I was asked for, and the proof I gave.

This should be widely understood. Sin=destruction. Even if you do not believe in the bible everyone should at least be able to acknowledge this.

 

[variant]

From your point of view, not from mine.

“Those who will not reason, are bigots, those who cannot, are fools, and those who dare not, are slaves.” -George Gordon Byron.

 

[Achilles6129]

I'm an atheist. I don't think the state of the natural universe is determined by the sins of humans.

Right, so that's your point of view. Obviously someone who isn't an atheist would have a different point of view. The Biblical point of view does seem to say that at least some natural evils are caused by the sins of humans. That was the point of the passages I quoted earlier.

I mean there are storms on Jupiter too, they don't seem to be a likely result of human sin to me...

There aren't any humans on Jupiter.

The statements made don't seem to have any verifiable basis in reality so I wonder why you think I would believe them.

Again, according to your point of view. However, from the point of view of theology they do have a basis in reality:

"18 The Lord will rescue me from every evil deed, and will [f]bring me safely to His heavenly kingdom; to [g]Him be the glory forever and ever. Amen." 2 Tim. 4:18 (NASB)

This was said as he was awaiting execution at the hands of the Romans. Clearly he had a different perception of reality.

 

[kristina411]

I think you must dispute the laws of physics if you think hurricanes are caused by people sinning.

No, you don't and to assume you do clearly shows you ignore anything you don't want to read.

As my initial post and every post since... Natural disasters are a result of an imperfect world, made imperfect by sin. I did not say nTural disasters were created by sin, if I had you would make a valid point but to say so is foolish and inaccurate.
Sin made the world, that was once without blemish, imperfect. As a result of the imperfection we are left with a dark world full of suffering. Until we can live without sin we must all know suffering.

 

[bhsmte]

I said proof of most suffering being a direct result of sin. I never claimed proof to natural disasters.
Proof that suffering being often a direct result of sin... Abuse, murder, rape, theft, adultry, pedophillia, the list goes on. The poster (who mysteriously vanished) asked where my proof is that suffering is often a result of a person sinning or being around those who sin and this is the proof. I dont get how this could even be denied.
I explained diseases and natural disasters as MY belief based on my experience and the Bible, I gave proof of how suffering was often a direct result of sin. That was the proof I was asked for, and the proof I gave.

This should be widely understood. Sin=destruction. Even if you do not believe in the bible everyone should at least be able to acknowledge this.

Maybe I am missing it, but I still see no proof of; most suffering being the result of sin.

Do you know what the work "proof" means?


Proof:

: something which shows that something else is true or correct

: an act or process of showing that something is true

mathematics : a test which shows that a calculation is correct

 

[Achilles6129]

Maybe I am missing it, but I still see no proof of; most suffering being the result of sin.

Do you know what the work "proof" means?


Proof:

: something which shows that something else is true or correct

: an act or process of showing that something is true

mathematics : a test which shows that a calculation is correct

Hi,

I think she's talking about human evil in which case suffering (as the result of the sin of the perpetrator) would be caused by sin. That's quite obvious and true. However, the suffering obviously wouldn't be caused (at least as far as we know) by the sins of the victim.

But this thread isn't about human evil, it's about natural evil.

 

[variant]

Right, so that's your point of view. Obviously someone who isn't an atheist would have a different point of view. The Biblical point of view does seem to say that at least some natural evils are caused by the sins of humans. That was the point of the passages I quoted earlier.

It's not just my point of view. If human sin effected the weather it would be in evidence.

Your "point of view" is vacuous.

There aren't any humans on Jupiter.

There are storms on Jupiter. Are you suggesting that only the storms on earth are caused by sin?

Again, according to your point of view. However, from the point of view of theology they do have a basis in reality:

"18 The Lord will rescue me from every evil deed, and will [f]bring me safely to His heavenly kingdom; to [g]Him be the glory forever and ever. Amen." 2 Tim. 4:18 (NASB)

This was said as he was awaiting execution at the hands of the Romans. Clearly he had a different perception of reality.

I don't care what your perception of reality is I care what you can demonstrate.

Scripture doesn't demonstrate anything other than the perceptions of it's adherents, so it can't possibly be a common basis for truth.

 

[essentialsaltes]

Christianity does not dispute the laws of physics, merely states the lawmaker.

So do you agree or disagree with my statement that moral (or immoral) acts do not change the laws of physics?

 

[kristina411]

Maybe I am missing it, but I still see no proof of; most suffering being the result of sin.

Do you know what the work "proof" means?


Proof:

: something which shows that something else is true or correct

: an act or process of showing that something is true

mathematics : a test which shows that a calculation is correct

What more proof do you need than breaking down the reasons for suffering and pointing to the cause (which is more often than not a result of sin)?

And, since you referenced 9million children who die, and want to know how their death was by sin, I believe I should know who these 9 million children are to at least know how they died, no?