Discussion NAR when did it go wrong, what faults can you list?

[ToBeLoved]

A lot of these earlier NARzie types merely rehashed the earlier latter-rain heresies (from 1948), which even the worldwide AoG banned within their ranks and continue to do so even to this day.

Yup. New name, old heresies. I do not think the new name is a coincidence.

 

[Biblicist]

I'm going to stir the pot a bit here by pointing that word we read as "apostle" in the NT is, in the Greek, something more along the lines of "One who is sent", with the implicaton being that they are sent by God. So, technically speaking, wouldn't that make anyone and everyone ever sent by God anywhere, for anything, an apostle?

If you had of asked only maybe six months back as to the meaning of an apostle I would have said much the same thing in that it means "someone who is sent", in fact most people would probably say much the same thing.

Late last year I had reason to look into the lexical and dictionary meaning of an apostle and it did not take me long to realise that our English word apostle (and/or Apostle) is a bit of an oversimplification of the Greek.

When we refer to the Twelve (incl. Paul), as Apostles they held a unique commission by Christ, whereas a congregational apostle is authorised to be an apostle by his local congregation, where their authority differs to that of those 13 individuals who were commissioned by Christ as the authority of the congregational apostle (1Cor 12:28; Eph 4:11) is restricted to whatever authority is granted to him by his congregation.

When I started to check through my various lexicons, the information was certainly detailed, where I felt as if I was on the outside looking into a discussion that seemingly everyone else had been talking about for decades but where I not only had no clue as to its content but where I was completely unaware of the subject.

The authority of the Apostles, being the Twelve and Paul, where Paul had even more authority than the Twelve, was granted to them by Christ as a special commissioning. So their authority rests on them as a commissioning and not so much as the were "being sent by Christ" but this is certainly an aspect of what it means to be a commissioned-Apostle-of-Christ.

The ordinary congregational apostle (1Cor 12:28; Eph 4:11) is tasked based where their role equates to the contemporary missionary who is directly involved with church planting, which means that not all missionaries necessarily hold an apostolic ministry.

When it comes to "being sent", this word is covered by the generic Greek word pempo (GK4421//SC3992). The word can be applied where say an important person may have sent a junior employee to go and pick up an important piece of jewellery for his wife. But when the word is used where the same person sent the junior employee as his representative, where he was to not only pick up the piece of jewellery but that he was to also negotiate a price and check for on the quality of the item, then the sending (pempo) is given additional weight by the authority that the sender gave the one who was being sent (pempo) on the task.

This techo-speak has some important bearing on how we view specific apostles or Apostles, where the first are only given limited authorisation by their local congregation (or Denomination) as church planters, whereas those who were commissioned by Christ as his direct represenatives (the Twelve), they have to be given a higher degree of respect but Paul was given even more authority directly by Christ.

So when the various NARzie celebrities try to pull the wool over the eyes of the Church by making the claim that the NT pattern justifyies their oddball stand that the NARzie apostles are supposed to be in various govermental positions over the church, then we can remind them that no one can claim to be a commissioned-Apostle-of-Christ as this role was unique to the Twelve and to Paul. Even on this point, we do not see the Apostle lording it over the local churches nor do we see them being in charge of any local congregation.

Lexical Aids to the New Testament, compiled and edited by Spiros Zodhiates, Th.D. AMG Publishers

GK690. Apostellō; from apo (608), from, and stello (5097), to send. To send forth, commission, send as an ambassador. Distinguished from pempo (4287), to send, in that apostello is to send forth on a certain mission, such as to preach (Mk 3:14; Lk 9:2), speak (Lk 1:19), bless (Ac 3:26; 7:35), rule, redeem, propitiate (1Jn 4:10), or save (1Jn 4:14). The expression that Jesus was sent by God(Jn 3:34) denotes the mission which He had to fulfill and the authority which backed Him. The importance of this mission is denoted by the fact that God sent His own Son. In the NT, to send forth from one place to another: to send upon some business or employment (Mt 2:16; 10:5; 20:2); to send away, dismiss (Mk 12:3,4); to send or thrust forth as a sickle among corn (Mk 4:29). Deriv.: apostolos (693), apostle, envoy; apostole (692), dispatching or sending forth.

GK692. Apostole; from apostello (690), to send forth. Dispatching, sending forth; also that which is sent, that is, a present. In the NT, apostleship, apostolic office or ministry, apostolic commission. Apostleship is an abstract noun that stresses the work and responsibility of an apostle; it is the apostolic work, the duties of the apostolic ministry, not merely apostolic status (Ac 1:25; Ro 1:5; ICo 9:2; Gal 2:8). It is evident from the NT that an apostolic commission could be given only by revelation from Christ Himself. To receive an apostolic commission in any other way than by a divine revelation—whether by the authority of a religious body or of an individual—is illegitimate and an act of self-will.

GK693. Apostolos; from apostello (690), to send forth. Apostle, emissary, delegate, envoy, ambassador, commissioned agent, authorized representative, missionary. Despite this word’s relatively meager history, it is evident in its uses that it carried the underlying notions of authorization and commission, and was used to signify a dispatched fleet, a naval commander, a group of colonists, and was also used of documents such as a passport or bill of lading. In the NT used: (1) Of anyone sent to represent another, a proxy, messenger, delegate, a commissioned agent bearing full authority Jn 13:16; 2Co 8:23; Php 2:25). (2) Of the closed college of the Twelve, Judas Iscariot notwithstanding (Mt 10:2; Mk 6:30; Lk 6:13; 9:10; 11:49; 17:5; 22:14; 24:10; Ac 1:2,26; 2:37,42,43; 4:33,35-37; 5:2,12,18,29,40; 6:6; 8:1,14,18; 9:27; 11:1; 15:2,4,6,22,23;16:4; Ro 1:1; 11:13; ICo 4:9; 12:28; 15:7; 2Co 1:1; Gal 1:1; Eph 1:1; 2:20; 3:5; 4:11; Col 1:1; 1Ti 1:1; 2:7; 2Ti 1:1; 1Pe 1:1; Rev 18:20; 21:14). Five characteristics of the Apostles: (a) Foundational to church and special place in God’s kingdom (Mt 19:28; Eph 2:19-22; 1Co 9:2, as church planters); (b) eyewitnesses of Christ (Ac 1:22; 4:33; 1Co 9:1; 15:8); (c) directly appointed and authorized by Christ (Mt 10:1,2; Ac 9:6,15; Gal 1:1); (d) authenticated by signs (Ac 2:43; 5:12; 2Co 12:12; Heb 2:3,4); (e) bore unique authority (Ac 2:42; 4:33; 15:1-23; Ro 11:13; 2Co 13:3; Gal 2:8; Eph 3:5; 2Pe 3:2; Jude 17). (3) Of coadjutors of the apostles, apostolic delegates, “apostolical” persons (not persons association with the apostolate were reckoned among them (Ac 14:4,14; Ro 16:7, somewhat ambiguous; 1Co 9:1-6; 15:5; Gal 1:19; 1Th 2:6). (4) False apostles (2Co 11:13; Re 2:2). (5) Of Christ (Heb 3:1).

GK lexical numbers are based on the NIV whereas SC are the older Strong’s numbers.

This material also changes my earlier remarks in post #18, where my remarks where not carefully thought through.

 

[ToBeLoved]

If you had of asked only maybe six months back as to the meaning of an apostle I would have said much the same thing in that it means "someone who is sent", in fact most people would probably say much the same thing.

Late last year I had reason to look into the lexical and dictionary meaning of an apostle and it did not take me long to realise that our English word apostle (and/or Apostle) is a bit of an oversimplification of the Greek.

When we refer to the Twelve (incl. Paul), as Apostles they held a unique commission by Christ, whereas a congregational apostle is authorised to be an apostle by his local congregation, where their authority differs to that of those 13 individuals who were commissioned by Christ as the authority of the congregational apostle (1Cor 12:28; Eph 4:11) is restricted to whatever authority is granted to him by his congregation.

When I started to check through my various lexicons, the information was certainly detailed, where I felt as if I was on the outside looking into a discussion that seemingly everyone else had been talking about for decades but where I not only had no clue as to its content but where I was completely unaware of the subject.

The authority of the Apostles, being the Twelve and Paul, where Paul had even more authority than the Twelve, was granted to them by Christ as a special commissioning. So their authority rests on them as a commissioning and not so much as the were "being sent by Christ" but this is certainly an aspect of what it means to be a commissioned-Apostle-of-Christ.

The ordinary congregational apostle (1Cor 12:28; Eph 4:11) is tasked based where their role equates to the contemporary missionary who is directly involved with church planting, which means that not all missionaries necessarily hold an apostolic ministry.

When it comes to "being sent", this word is covered by the generic Greek word pempo (GK4421//SC3992). The word can be applied where say an important person may have sent a junior employee to go and pick up an important piece of jewellery for his wife. But when the word is used where the same person sent the junior employee as his representative, where he was to not only pick up the piece of jewellery but that he was to also negotiate a price and check for on the quality of the item, then the sending (pempo) is given additional weight by the authority that the sender gave the one who was being sent (pempo) on the task.

This techo-speak has some important bearing on how we view specific apostles or Apostles, where the first are only given limited authorisation by their local congregation (or Denomination) as church planters, whereas those who were commissioned by Christ as his direct represenatives (the Twelve), they have to be given a higher degree of respect but Paul was given even more authority directly by Christ.

So when the various NARzie celebrities try to pull the wool over the eyes of the Church by making the claim that the NT pattern justifyies their oddball stand that the NARzie apostles are supposed to be in various govermental positions over the church, then we can remind them that no one can claim to be a commissioned-Apostle-of-Christ as this role was unique to the Twelve and to Paul. Even on this point, we do not see the Apostle lording it over the local churches nor do we see them being in charge of any local congregation.

View attachment 174609​

Lexical Aids to the New Testament, compiled and edited by Spiros Zodhiates, Th.D. AMG Publishers

GK690. Apostellō; from apo (608), from, and stello (5097), to send. To send forth, commission, send as an ambassador. Distinguished from pempo (4287), to send, in that apostello is to send forth on a certain mission, such as to preach (Mk 3:14; Lk 9:2), speak (Lk 1:19), bless (Ac 3:26; 7:35), rule, redeem, propitiate (1Jn 4:10), or save (1Jn 4:14). The expression that Jesus was sent by God(Jn 3:34) denotes the mission which He had to fulfill and the authority which backed Him. The importance of this mission is denoted by the fact that God sent His own Son. In the NT, to send forth from one place to another: to send upon some business or employment (Mt 2:16; 10:5; 20:2); to send away, dismiss (Mk 12:3,4); to send or thrust forth as a sickle among corn (Mk 4:29). Deriv.: apostolos (693), apostle, envoy; apostole (692), dispatching or sending forth.

GK692. Apostole; from apostello (690), to send forth. Dispatching, sending forth; also that which is sent, that is, a present. In the NT, apostleship, apostolic office or ministry, apostolic commission. Apostleship is an abstract noun that stresses the work and responsibility of an apostle; it is the apostolic work, the duties of the apostolic ministry, not merely apostolic status (Ac 1:25; Ro 1:5; ICo 9:2; Gal 2:8). It is evident from the NT that an apostolic commission could be given only by revelation from Christ Himself. To receive an apostolic commission in any other way than by a divine revelation—whether by the authority of a religious body or of an individual—is illegitimate and an act of self-will.

GK693. Apostolos; from apostello (690), to send forth. Apostle, emissary, delegate, envoy, ambassador, commissioned agent, authorized representative, missionary. Despite this word’s relatively meager history, it is evident in its uses that it carried the underlying notions of authorization and commission, and was used to signify a dispatched fleet, a naval commander, a group of colonists, and was also used of documents such as a passport or bill of lading. In the NT used: (1) Of anyone sent to represent another, a proxy, messenger, delegate, a commissioned agent bearing full authority Jn 13:16; 2Co 8:23; Php 2:25). (2) Of the closed college of the Twelve, Judas Iscariot notwithstanding (Mt 10:2; Mk 6:30; Lk 6:13; 9:10; 11:49; 17:5; 22:14; 24:10; Ac 1:2,26; 2:37,42,43; 4:33,35-37; 5:2,12,18,29,40; 6:6; 8:1,14,18; 9:27; 11:1; 15:2,4,6,22,23;16:4; Ro 1:1; 11:13; ICo 4:9; 12:28; 15:7; 2Co 1:1; Gal 1:1; Eph 1:1; 2:20; 3:5; 4:11; Col 1:1; 1Ti 1:1; 2:7; 2Ti 1:1; 1Pe 1:1; Rev 18:20; 21:14). Five characteristics of the Apostles: (a) Foundational to church and special place in God’s kingdom (Mt 19:28; Eph 2:19-22; 1Co 9:2, as church planters); (b) eyewitnesses of Christ (Ac 1:22; 4:33; 1Co 9:1; 15:8); (c) directly appointed and authorized by Christ (Mt 10:1,2; Ac 9:6,15; Gal 1:1); (d) authenticated by signs (Ac 2:43; 5:12; 2Co 12:12; Heb 2:3,4); (e) bore unique authority (Ac 2:42; 4:33; 15:1-23; Ro 11:13; 2Co 13:3; Gal 2:8; Eph 3:5; 2Pe 3:2; Jude 17). (3) Of coadjutors of the apostles, apostolic delegates, “apostolical” persons (not persons association with the apostolate were reckoned among them (Ac 14:4,14; Ro 16:7, somewhat ambiguous; 1Co 9:1-6; 15:5; Gal 1:19; 1Th 2:6). (4) False apostles (2Co 11:13; Re 2:2). (5) Of Christ (Heb 3:1).

GK lexical numbers are based on the NIV whereas SC are the older Strong’s numbers.

This material also changes my earlier remarks in post #18, where my remarks where not carefully thought through.

Awesome research! I have to look at this closer after work tonight.

 

[Biblicist]

Awesome research! I have to look at this closer after work tonight.

Thankyou. Even though my post touches on the subject, as much of the terminology may be a bit unfamiliar for most and that my own presentation is undoudtedly lacking, I would suggest that when given the opportunity, that the various words that our English translations translate into apostles and with those are who are being sent on a task are maybe best viewed through some good Greek lexicons and dictionaries - which I have provided below.

In that PNG file I produced, the Greek word Apostolos (GK693//SC652) was not included where even even my BibleWorks9 (BW9) Biblical research program can provide seemingly confusing definitions, where the output can differ depending on the dictionary definitions that are being attached to the Bible version that I am referring to.

When I am using the NASB(95), BW9 provides the NASB's abbreviated dictionary in an adjacent column which has;

Meaning: a messenger, one sent on a mission, an apostle​

With the KJV it provides a Strong's definition which is;

Meaning: 1) a delegate, messenger, one sent forth with orders 1a) specifically applied to the twelve apostles of Christ 1b) in a broader sense applied to other eminent Christian teachers 1b1) of Barnabas 1b2) of Timothy and Silvanus​

The dictionary definition for the NASB entry is certainly lacking in detail whereas the Strong's definition adds in a bit more but it's primary definition tends to restrict itself more to the Commissioned-Apostles-of-Christ. Even though it also refers to Barnabas, Timothy and Silvanus the definition remains unclear as to their function and status as apostles.

The following lexical information should help to clarify the situation. Unfortunately when it comes to both the very helpful articles within both the TDNT and EDNT Dictionaries, as I was unable to copy and paste from BW9 into CF without significant errors in the Greek text, I decided to omit them. If you can find the article on the apostle within the full edition of the TDNT this should prove helpful.

The BDAG Lexicon would be considered as the benchmark lexicon but as it also has its limitations, then it is always wise to check the other major lexicons as well.

When reading through the following lexicons (enjoy!!), you should keep in mind any possible differences between an Apostle-of-Christ and an ordinary congregational apostle.

The following lexical and dictionary definitions have been taken from BibleWorks 9

BibleWorks™ Copyright © 1992-2013 BibleWorks, LLC. All rights reserved. BibleWorks was programmed by Michael S. Bushell, Michael D. Tan, and Glenn L. Weaver. All rights reserved. Bible timelines Copyright © 1996-2013 BibleWorks, LLC. All rights reserved. Map datasets Copyright © 2013 BibleWorks, LLC: source of underlying data for some of the images was the Global Land Cover Facility, http://www.landcover.org. Detailed Jerusalem image Copyright © 2005 TerraServer.com. All rights reserved.​

1. Friberg Lexicon:

3299 ἀπόστολος, ου, ὁ (1) as one who is sent on a mission with full authority apostle, messenger, envoy (JN 13.16); (2) as a commissioned representative of a congregation delegate, missionary, representative (2C 8.23); (3) in the NT used especially of a messenger for God; (a) generally (LU 11.49); (b) more specifically as a person who tells the gospel message apostle (RO 16.7); often of a person who has the special task of founding and establishing churches apostle, messenger (of God) (EP 2.20); (c) especially of the Twelve chosen by Jesus apostle (LU 6.13)​

2. Louw-Nida Lexicon:

53.74 ἀπόστολος, ου m: one who fulfills the role of being a special messenger (generally restricted to the immediate followers of Jesus Christ, but also extended, as in the case of Paul, to other early Christians active in proclaiming the message of the gospel) - 'apostle, special messenger.' Παῦλος δοῦλος Χριστοῦ Ἰησοῦ, κλητὸς ἀπόστολος 'Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called (by God) to be an apostle' Ro 1.1. The relationship of an apostle to Jesus Christ is sometimes expressed as 'being Christ's messenger' or 'being a special messenger of Jesus Christ.' In such a phrase, the term 'special' refers to having been commissioned by Jesus Christ for a particular task or role.​

3. LSJ Lexicon (Abridged)

5880 ἀπόστολος
ἀπόστολος, ὁ, (ἀποστέλλω) a messenger, ambassador, envoy, Hdt.
2. a sacred messenger, an Apostle, N.T.
II. = στόλος, a naval squadron or expedition, Dem., etc.​

4. VGNT Dictionary:

505 ἀπόστολος [pg 70]
ἀπόστολος.
It is not easy to point to an adequate parallel for the NT usage of this important word, but it may be noted that in Herod. i. 21 (cf. v. 38) it is found = “messenger,” “envoy,” and with the same meaning in LXX 3 Regn 146 Α ἐγώ εἰμι ἀπόστολος πρὸς σὲ σκληρός, cf. Symm. Isai 182. Reference may also be made to the interesting fragment in P Par p. 411 f. (B.C. 191), where, if we can accept the editor’s restoration of the missing letters, we read of a public official who had sent to a delinquent a messenger bearing the orders he had disregarded—ἐπεσ]ταλκότων ἡμῶν πρός σε τὸν ἀπ@όστολον]. Cf. also a lexical extract cited by Nägeli, p. 23, ὁ ἐκπεμπόμενος μετὰ στρατιᾶς καὶ παρασκευῆς ἀπόστολος καλεῖται: this is interesting as being coloured with the association found in Attic, though applied to a person.
Apart from its use in Attic inscriptions, as Syll 153 (B.C. 325) = “fleet,” “naval expedition,” ἀπόστολος is used for a “ship” in P Oxy III. 522 (ii/A.D.). In this document (cf. also P Tebt II. 486, ii/iii A.D.), which is an account of the expenses of corn-transport, it is of interest to notice that each ἀπόστολος is known by the name of its owner, e.g. λόγος ἀποστόλου Τριαδέλφου, “account—for the ship of Triadelphus.” In P Oxy IX. 119713 (A.D. 211) a different sense is required—ὁπόταν τὰ ἐξ ἀποστόλων πλοῖα παραγένηται, where Hunt renders, “whenever the boats collected in accordance with the orders of lading arrive,” and cites P Amh II. 13810 (A.D. 326) (as amended by Mitteis, Chrest. II., p. 391) ἐ]ξ ἀποστόλου τῆς τάξεως, where a ship-master embarks certain loads “in accordance with the bill of lading of the Officium,” also P Lond 256(a)10 (A.D. 15) (= II., p. 99) ἀκολούθως τῷ [18 letters]ου ἀποστόλῳ, and CPHerm 611 f. (cf. Wilcken Chrest. I., p. 522) ἐπ @εὶ ο]ἱ σοὶ ἐπίτροπο@ι τοὺς καλο]υμένους ἀποστόλους @…… δι᾽ ὧν κελεύειν α@ὐτο]ῖς ἔθος @τὴν] τοῦ σείτου ἐμ@β]ο@λὴν ποιεῖσ]ται (l.-θαι). In P Oxy X. 125910 (A.D. 211–2) ἐξ ἀποστόλου τοῦ κρατίστου ἐπιτρόπου τῆς Νέας πόλεως “in accordance with the message of his excellency” (Edd.), the noun seems to be more general; but the papyrus concerns the shipment of corn to Alexandria. See further Archiv iii. p. 221 f. Since in early times the non-specialized and etymological meaning is found in Herodotus, and the other only in Attic writers, we see in the NT use the influence of Ionic on the Κοινή: cf. Proleg. pp. 37, 81.​

5. Gingrich Lexicon:

833 ἀπόστολος
ἀπόστολος, ου, ὁ—1. delegate, envoy, messenger Lk 11:49; J 13:16; 2 Cor 8:23; Eph 3:5; Phil 2:25; Hb 3:1; Rv 2:2; 18:20.—2. apostle, one holding the most responsible position of service in the Christian communities (1 Cor 12:28f), esp. of Jesus’ original 12 disciples (Mt 10:2; Ac 1:26; Rv 21:14), but also of other prominent leaders outside their number Ac 14:14; Ro 1:1; 16:7; Gal 1:19. [pg 24]
​

6. BDAG Lexicon

1011 ἀπόστολος
• ἀπόστολος, ου, ὁ (s. ἀποστέλλω). In older Gk. (Lysias, Demosth.) and later (e.g. Posidon.: 87 fgm. 53 p. 257, 21 Jac. [Strabo 3, 5, 5]) ὁ ἀ. is a naval expedition, prob. also its commander (Anecd. Gr. 217, 26). τὸ ἀπόστολον with (Pla., Ep. 7, 346a) or without (Vi. Hom. 19) πλοῖον means a ship ready for departure. In its single occurrence in Jos. (Ant. 17, 300; it is not found elsewh. in Jewish-Gk. lit.) it prob. means ‘sending out’; in pap mostly ‘bill of lading’ (s. Preisigke, Fachwörter 1915), less freq. ‘certificate of clearance (at a port)’ (BGU V §64 [II AD]=Gnomon des Idios Logos). It can also be ‘letter of authorization (relating to shipping)’: Mitt-Wilck. I/2, 443, 10 (15 AD); PHerm 6, 11f (cp. Dig. 49, 6, 1 litteras dimissorias sive apostolos). In contrast, in isolated cases it refers to persons who are dispatched for a specific purpose, and the context determines the status or function expressed in such Eng. terms as ‘ambassador, delegate, messenger’ (Hdt. 1, 21; 5, 38; Synesius, Providence 2, 3 p. 122a ἀπόστολοι of ordinary messengers; Sb 7241, 48; BGU 1741, 6 [64 BC]; 3 Km 14:6A; Is 18:2 Sym.). Cp. KLake, The Word ᾽Α: Beginn. I 5, ’33, 46-52. It is this isolated usage that is preferred in the NT w. nuances peculiar to its lit. But the extensive use of ἀποστέλλω in documents relating to pers. of merit engaged in administrative service prob. encouraged NT use of the noun, thus in effect disavowing assoc. w. the type of itinerant philosophers that evoked the kind of pejorative term applied by Paul’s audience Ac 17:18.

1. of messengers without extraordinary status delegate, envoy, messenger (opp. ὁ πέμψας) J 13:16. Of Epaphroditus, messenger of the Philippians Phil 2:25. —2 Cor 8:23.

2. of messengers with extraordinary status, esp. of God’s messenger, envoy (cp. Epict. 3, 22, 23 of Cynic wise men: ἄγγελος ἀπὸ τ. Διὸς ἀπέσταλται).

a. of prophets Lk 11:49; Rv 18:20; cp. 2:2; Eph 3:5.

b. of Christ (w. ἀρχιερεύς) Hb 3:1 (cp. ApcEsdr 2:1 p. 25, 29 T.; Just., A I, 12, 9; the extra-Christian firman Sb 7240, 4f οὐκ ἔστιν θεὸς εἰ μὴ ὁ θεὸς μόνος. Μααμετ ἀπόστολος θεοῦ). GWetter, ‘D. Sohn Gottes’ 1916, 26ff.

c. but predominately in the NT (of the apologists, only Just.) of a group of highly honored believers w. a special function as God’s envoys. Also Judaism had a figure known as apostle שָׁלִיחַ); Schürer III 124f w. sources and lit.; Billerb. III 1926, 2-4; JTruron, Theology 51, ’48, 166-70; 341-43; GDix, ibid. 249-56; 385f; JBühner, art. ἄ. in EDNT I 142-46). In Christian circles, at first ἀ. denoted one who proclaimed the gospel, and was not strictly limited: Paul freq. calls himself an ἀ.: Ro 1:1; 11:13; 1 Cor 1:1; 9:1f; 15:9; 2 Cor 1:1; Gal 1:1; Eph 1:1; Col 1:1; 1 Ti 1:1; 2:7; 2 Ti 1:1; Tit 1:1.—1 Cl 47:1. Of Barnabas Ac 14:14; 15:2. Of Andronicus and Junia (less prob. Junias, s. Ἰουνία) Ro 16:7. Of James, the Lord’s brother Gal 1:19. Of Peter 1 Pt 1:1; 2 Pt 1:1. Then esp. of the 12 apostles οἱ δώδεκα ἀ. (cp. ParJer 9:20; AscIs 3:21; 4:3) Mt 10:2; Mk 3:14; Lk 22:14 (v.l. οἱ δώδεκα); cp. 6:13; 9:10; 17:5; Ac 1:26 (P-HMenoud, RHPR 37 ’57, 71-80); Rv 21:14; PtK 3 p. 15, 18. Peter and the apostles Ac 2:37; 5:29. Paul and apostles Pol 9:1 (cp. AcPlTh Aa I, 235 app. of Thecla). Gener. the apostles Mk 6:30; Lk 24:10; 1 Cor 4:9; 9:5; 15:7; 2 Cor 11:13; 1 Th 2:7; Ac 1:2; 2:42f; 4:33, 35, 37; 5:2, 12, 18, 34 v.l., 40; 6:6; 8:1, 14, 18; 9:27; 11:1; 14:4; 2 Pt 3:2; Jd 17; IEph 11:2; IMg 7:1; 13:2; ITr 2:2; 3:1; 7:1; IPhld 5:1; ISm 8:1; D ins; 11:3, 6. As a governing board, w. the elders Ac 15:2, 4, 6, 22f; 16:4. As possessors of the most important spiritual gift 1 Cor 12:28f. Proclaimers of the gospel 1 Cl 42:1f; B 5:9; Hs 9, 17, 1. Prophesying strife 1 Cl 44:1. Working miracles 2 Cor 12:12. W. overseers, teachers and attendants Hv 3, 5, 1; s 9, 15, 4; w. teachers s 9, 25, 2; w. teachers, preaching to those who had fallen asleep s 9, 16, 5; w. var. Christian officials IMg 6:1; w. prophets Eph 2:20; D 11:3; Pol 6:3. Christ and the apostles as the foundation of the church IMg 13:1; ITr 12; 2; cp. Eph 2:20. οἱ ἀ. and ἡ ἐκκλησία w. the three patriarchs and the prophets IPhld 9:1. The Holy Scriptures named w. the ap. 2 Cl 14:2 (sim. ApcSed 14:10 p. 136, 17 Ja.). Paul ironically refers to his opponents (or the original apostles; s. s.v. ὑπερλίαν) as οἱ ὑπερλίαν ἀ. the super-apostles 2 Cor 11:5; 12:11. The orig. apostles he calls οἱ πρὸ ἐμοῦ ἀ. Gal 1:17; AcPlCor 2:4.—Harnack, Mission4 I 1923, 332ff (Eng. tr. I 319-31). WSeufert, D. Urspr. u. d. Bed. d. Apostolates 1887; EHaupt, Z. Verständnis d. Apostolates im NT 1896; EMonnier, La notion de l’Apostolat des origines à Irénée 1903; PBatiffol, RB n.s. 3, 1906, 520-32; Wlh., Einleitung2, 1911, 138-47; EBurton, AJT 16, 1912, 561-88, Gal comm. 1921, 363-84; RSchütz, Apostel u. Jünger 1921; EMeyer I 265ff; III 255ff. HVogelstein, Development of the Apostolate in Judaism, etc.: HUCA 2, 1925, 99-123; JWagenmann, D. Stellg. d. Ap. Pls neben den Zwölf 1926; WMundle, D. Apostelbild der AG: ZNW 27, 1928, 36-54; KRengstorf, TW I 406-46 (s. critique by HConzelmann, The Theol. of St. Luke ’60, 216, n. 1), Apost. u. Predigtamt ’34; J-LLeuba, Rech. exégét. rel. à l’apostolat dans le NT, diss. NeuchÂtel ’36; PSaintyves, Deux mythes évangéliques, Les 12 apôtres et les 72 disciples ’38; GSass, Apostelamt u. Kirche … paulin. Apostelbegr. ’39; EKäsemann, ZNW 40, ’41, 33-71; RLiechtenhan, D. urchr. Mission ’46; ESchweizer, D. Leben d. Herrn in d. Gemeinde u. ihren Diensten ’46; AFridrichsen, The Apostle and His Message ’47; HvCampenhausen, D. urchristl. Apostelbegr.: StTh 1, ’47, 96-130; HMosbech, ibid. 2, ’48, 166-200; ELohse, Ursprung u. Prägung des christl. Apostolates: TZ 9, ’53, 259-75; GKlein, Die 12 Apostel, ’60; FHahn, Mission in the NT, tr. FClarke, ’65; WSchmithals, The Office of the Apostle, tr. JSteely, ’69; KKertelge, Das Apostelamt des Paulus, BZ 14, ’70, 161-81. S. also ἐκκλησία end, esp. Holl and Kattenbusch; also HBetz, Hermeneia: Gal ’79, 74f (w. additional lit.); FAgnew, On the Origin of the Term ἀπόστολος: CBQ 38, ’76, 49-53 (survey of debate); KHaacker, NovT 30, ’88, 9-38 (Acts). Ins evidence (s. e.g. SIG index) relating to the verb ἀποστέλλω is almost gener. ignored in debate about the meaning of the noun.—DELG s.v. στέλλω A. EDNT. M-M. TW. Spicq.
​

 

[geetrue]

I thought the word apostle was just for those that met and knew Jesus. I would never call myself an apostle, but I have met Him and have talked to Him not just a voice either, but in the form of my avatar I saw Him while in the Spirit. He did appear to me on my last night attending the Brownsville Revival December 1996 and left me with these words, "They have baptised you with evil, but I will Baptise you with love"

He has been with me and guided me and led me for 30 years now next Saturday on Memorial Day week-end and I leave you with these words from:

Isaiah 48: 10-11 NCV

But for my own sake I will be patient.
People will praise me for not becoming angry
and destroying you.

I have made you pure, but not by fire, as silver is made pure.
I have purified you by giving you troubles

St Paul and I have much in common troubles included especially when Jesus said, "My strength is made perfect in weakness"

 

[Biblicist]

I thought the word apostle was just for those that met and knew Jesus.

Undoubtedly we have all gone through life where we've presumed that certain words, be they Greek or even words from within our own native language mean something, when after who knows how many years, something crops up where we suddenly begin to understand that it may not be the case. As I mentioned in an earlier post, with the word apostle I presumed that it mean something along the populust understanding of someone who was sent, where instead the Greek word pempo is used within the Scriptures in this way.

The Twelve along with Paul were certainly all commissioned directly by Christ to be his Apostles-of-Christ which includes Paul as well but then we also have the congregational apostles as well that today we now as church planting missionaries along with those who we see as being suburban church planters within our larger cities. Matthias is a good example of someone who both walked and listened to Jesus (maybe two or three years), where he only became a commissioned Apostle-of-Christ after he was selected by the Lord when the Twelve cast lots between the two names that they had put forward; this means that it is the commissioning by Christ that makes someone an Apostle-of-Christ which stopped with Matthias. Since this time our apostles/church planting missionaries are appointed by each local congregation as the emissary of each respective congregation.

Even with our contemporary apostles, their authority is limited by the authority that each local congregation gives to them and once they have established a church plant they should be ensuring that Elders are appointed by the new congregation as it leaders.

 

[faroukfarouk]

My personal opinion, which may be way off is that Bentley was chosen because he would reach a certain audience that maybe the others could not reach. I don't know that for a fact, but that is what I think

Re. tattoos, they are certainly a proven conversation-starter in witness; a lot of Christians find faith based ones to be so. Like you say, the belief may be that they can open doors to talk to others who might not otherwise be reached.

 

[Biblicist]

Re. tattoos, they are certainly a proven conversation-starter in witness; a lot of Christians find faith based ones to be so. Like you say, the belief may be that they can open doors to talk to others who might not otherwise be reached.

You are certainly right with this; all we have to do is to look at the numerous decadent music and film celebrities who wear the cross as a mark of scorn and with how the film industry will usually have the villain wearing a cross. If nothing else, when someone defaces their body with a cross or any form of tattoos, which not only reveals their poor judgment to us all for maybe decades, we can sadly presume that such individuals are usually in need of the Gospel - or that they should at least be encouraged to find Believers of good character who can guide them into walking in the Spirit.

Bentley is certainly a great example of how tattoos can be a declaration of self-shame and abuse. When I was first told to look at him, I remember thinking that he must have had a terrible life as a child and a teenager, which was apparently true; but when I discovered that his tattoos were obtained while he was supposed to be a Christian ministry then I was not surprised to quickly discover that there was very little of any value or even of goodness within him.

So if any teenager feels that they are being placed under pressure to either get a tattoo, take drugs, go binge drinking, then they should undoubtedly fall before the Lord to seek his help to resist such worldly and humanist onslaughts. As my children are now Christian adults, I can be thankful that they were wise enough to resist any encouragement by their non-Christian friends to get a tattoo, where I hope that the leaders of our youth are being ever vigilant to strengthen our children so that they do not succumb to these vices.

 

[faroukfarouk]

You are certainly right with this; all we have to do is to look at the numerous decadent music and film celebrities who wear the cross as a mark of scorn and with how the film industry will usually have the villain wearing a cross. If nothing else, when someone defaces their body with a cross or any form of tattoos, which not only reveals their poor judgment to us all for maybe decades, we can sadly presume that such individuals are usually in need of the Gospel - or that they should at least be encouraged to find Believers of good character who can guide them into walking in the Spirit.

Bentley is certainly a great example of how tattoos can be a declaration of self-shame and abuse. When I was first told to look at him, I remember thinking that he must have had a terrible life as a child and a teenager, which was apparently true; but when I discovered that his tattoos were obtained while he was supposed to be a Christian ministry then I was not surprised to quickly discover that there was very little of any value or even of goodness within him.

So if any teenager feels that they are being placed under pressure to either get a tattoo, take drugs, go binge drinking, then they should undoubtedly fall before the Lord to seek his help to resist such worldly and humanist onslaughts. As my children are now Christian adults, I can be thankful that they were wise enough to resist any encouragement by their non-Christian friends to get a tattoo, where I hope that the leaders of our youth are being ever vigilant to strengthen our children so that they do not succumb to these vices.

If the content is decadent, then I would agree that they are definable as a vice, possibly.

But for example, my wife and I talked to a young lady with the whole of John 3.16 tattooed on her wrist area; it was her favorite Bible verse and mine also; and I'm sure that other conversations have also been prompted by her willingness to have it done.

So I didn't say to her: "You are driven by vice!" Instead, we had a mutually appreciative conversation about John 3.16.

 

[Biblicist]

If the content is decadent, then I would agree that they are definable as a vice, possibly.

But for example, my wife and I talked to a young lady with the whole of John 3.16 tattooed on her wrist area; it was her favorite Bible verse and mine also; and I'm sure that other conversations have also been prompted by her willingness to have it done.

So I didn't say to her: "You are driven by vice!" Instead, we had a mutually appreciative conversation about John 3.16.

Undoubtedly if someone were to have 666 tattooed on their forehead that they could probably use this as a point of conversation as well, where even "Stupid is as stupid does" would undoubtedly start a few conversations.

I should say that I can understand the plight of those who had severly defaced their bodies as teenagers due to peer pressure of some less than reputable so called friends; if these marks are open to all to see then undoubtedly they will pay the price for their foolishness for many years to come. Hopefully the many commercial services that have arisen in recent years to help people to remove their marks of self abasement and shame will become more affordable to those who are not so well off.

To keep in line with this thread, the prominent NARzie Todd Bentley would undoubtedly be the pinup boy for those who are encouraging our impressionable youth to do down this very dark pathway - a pathway that most will soon live to regret.

 

[faroukfarouk]

Undoubtedly if someone were to have 666 tattooed on their forehead that they could probably use this as a point of conversation as well, where even "Stupid does what stupid is" would undoubtedly start a few conversations as well.

I should say that I can understand the plight of those who had severly defaced their bodies as teenagers due to peer pressure of some less than reputable so called friends; if these marks are open to all to see then undoubtedly they will pay the price for their foolishness for many years to come. Hopefully the many commercial services that have arisen in recent years to help people to remove their marks of self abasement and shame will become more affordable to those who are not so well off.

To keep in line with this thread, the prominent NARzie Todd Bentley would undoubtedly be the pinup boy for those who are encouraging our impressionable youth to do down this very dark pathway - a pathway that most will soon live to regret.

I think that what you are talking about in post #110 is a straw man, compared with what I was talking about in post #109.

 

[Biblicist]

I think that what you are talking about in post #110 is a straw man, compared with what I was talking about in post #109.

You probably do not want to know what I really think.

 

[faroukfarouk]

You probably do not want to know what I really think.

Also, I would put it to you, than many Christians would even regard it as more or less necessary to avail themselves of the services of a tattoo artist if their current interests have superseded past ones; for example, a women with the name of an ex-bf (e.g., "Bill") tattooed on her skin, might well choose to ask a good tattoo artist to change it to something such as "Bible" instead. Most Christians would probably agree that this is a fine example of circumstances when a tattoo artist can be put to good use by a Christian.

 

[Biblicist]

Also, I would put it to you, than many Christians would even regard it as more or less necessary to avail themselves of the services of a tattoo artist if their current interests have superseded past ones; for example, a women with the name of an ex-bf (e.g., "Bill") tattooed on her skin, might well choose to ask a good tattoo artist to change it to something such as "Bible" instead. Most Christians would probably agree that this is a fine example of circumstances when a tattoo artist can be put to good use by a Christian.

Well, at least you have now stated that tattoos can be an absolutely stupid choice, where at times I wonder if these women are doing us all a favour by letting us know in advance that we are best to keep away from them - harsh, but sadly very true. I often wonder as to the emotional wherewithal of those women are so dull of mind that they cannot see the foolishness of having someone's name tattood on their body.

Admittedly I am not an expert with services that remove tattoos, but I would have thought that wisdom would dictate that they go and have the silly thing removed, though I do not know how successful these procedure are. In some ways, having a tattoo modified is akin to having a bank robber who has realised the error of his ways going to an accountant to have his ill-gotten gains adjusted for tax purposes.

 

[faroukfarouk]

Well, at least you have now stated that tattoos can be an absolutely stupid choice, where at times I wonder if these women are doing us all a favour by letting us know in advance that we are best to keep away from them - harsh, but sadly very true. I often wonder as to the emotional wherewithal of those women are so dull of mind that they cannot see the foolishness of having someone's name tattood on their body.

FYI, it is actually very widespread among women in the Bible Belt:

Around here (Bible Belt), it is common, especially among evangelical Christians, for the girls under about 40 to have religious tattoos. More do than don't, especially when you get to the under 30 crowd. I hardly know any female at church that is under 30 that does not have a tattoo.

forums dot thewelltrainedmind dot com

There are all sorts of views and preferences around, but getting tattooed - one hopes, tastefully - is the preferred choice for huge numbers of people, including professing Christians in churches in the Bible Belt.

 

[Biblicist]

FYI, it is actually very widespread among women in the Bible Belt:

forums dot thewelltrainedmind dot com

There are all sorts of views and preferences around, but getting tattooed - one hopes, tastefully - is the preferred choice for huge numbers of people, including professing Christians in churches in the Bible Belt.

Mmmm . . . it's sad to see a region that has had such a fine name going down this decadent pathway; according to what you have told me, it seems that the so called Bible Belt could be better referred to as being a Bible Wasteland. Of course I can only wonder about who those people actually are!

 

[faroukfarouk]

Mmmm . . . it's sad to see a region that has had such a fine name going down this decadent pathway; according to what you have told me, it seems that the so called Bible Belt could be better referred to as being a Bible Wasteland. Of course I can only wonder about who those people actually are!

How do you mean, who 'these people' are?

Sounds like you automatically regard a Bible verse or Christian fish <>< tattoo, etc. as some sort of stigma.

 

[Biblicist]

How do you mean, who 'these people' are?

I would like to think that the "churches" that you are referring to are comprised of those who have maybe come out of criminal bike gangs and the like, but sadly, I am all too aware that there are many elements of the Western church that are little better off than the world around them. In spite of the horrid inroads that humanism and other forms of decadent human behaviour have had on the church in our various Bible Belts, I have no doubt that there are still many who have chosen to run a good walk where their trust is in the Spirit.

Sounds like you automatically regard a Bible verse or Christian fish <>< tattoo, etc. as some sort of stigma.

Of course I do! As the world has turned the Cross into a symbol of scorn, where it has become so bad in recent years, we can now presume that the villian in a film will be the one who is wearing a cross before he even speaks a word.

As I have said previously with our discussions regarding bodily defacement, there are many Fathers (both Christian and non-Christian) who will caution their sons from getting involved with women who have tattoos and particularly with those women who are oddly proud of what they have done.

 

[faroukfarouk]

Of course I do! As the world has turned the Cross into a symbol of scorn, where it has become so bad in recent years, we can now presume that the villian in a film will be the one who is wearing a cross before he even speaks a word.

As I have said previously with our discussions regarding bodily defacement, there are many Fathers (both Christian and non-Christian) who will caution their sons from getting involved with women who have tattoos and particularly with those women who are oddly proud of what they have done.

Hmm...and maybe other fathers would actually encourage respect for those who have had the courage to identify with the moral content of a Bible verse. Maybe like the young lady with John 3.16 on her wrist area that my wife and I talked to.

 

[Biblicist]

Hmm...and maybe other fathers would actually encourage respect for those who have had the courage to identify with the moral content of a Bible verse. Maybe like the young lady with John 3.16 on her wrist area that my wife and I talked to.

Well, I hope that such men are never put in leadership positions within our churches. If nothing else, when a young person decides to get a tattoo, and particularly with one that is glaring, then it usually reflects poor parenting where the child has been placed at a servere disadvantage from the start.