Name one doctrine that is not supported by Scripture.

[GodsGrace101]

Ok, now I understand you. That’s Nestorian, but its Nicene, so I can’t object, although I do suggest you look into the rationale for the councils of Ephesus and Chalcedon rejecting the view Nestorius, because I do believe they offers a better explanation for everything. The Assyrians are basically Chalcedonian but prefer to call our Lord the Mother of Christ.

I know about Ephesus...and some of the other councils, each to clear up doctrine.
I don't know about Nestorius.
Must I learn about him too?
I haven't concentrated on heresies (IF Nestorius' view was heretical) because there's so much just to know what is accepted and I most probably don't have the intellectual leaning you do.
If you care to tell me what he basically believed, I'd appreciate it...but I doubt I'll be studying it.

 

[GodsGrace101]

I would hope that most Protestants know that neither English translations nor the English language is authoritative (Divinely inspired)? But, who am I to say? I'm learning a lot about Protestants that I didn't know since being on CF.

The English language is not inspired?
First time hearing of this...
Interesting stuff !
You mean God only speaks aramaic or Hebrew or Greek?

 

[bbbbbbb]

I agree that Protestantism has its problems.
Sola Scriptura, as I understand it, just means that only scripture is used as the sole authority as to doctrine.

Problem is...too many denominations...too many differing ideas.
Yes, this is problematic.

If we want to search deeper, you and I would have to agree that even within Catholicism there is an outer veneer of agreement on all doctrine, but going deeper we find that not all priests agree on all issues.
I don't use the word theologian because I don't believe a Catholic theologian CAN disagree with a doctrine, at least openly.

Actually, on some doctrines such as Purgatory, there is a wide variance of interpretation even among theologians in the RCC.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Actually, on some doctrines such as Purgatory, there is a wide variance of interpretation even among theologians in the RCC.

Agreed. This is what I was referring to.
Purgatory is a great example.
The variance goes as far as some not even believing purgatory exists.
I know of 2 priests, just off-hand, that do not: One stating it is not found in the bible.
And I know at least 1 priest that openly states that hell does not exist.

There was more unity before this Pope...
many are praying for him to go away because he is not their idea of a Pope..that would be the Traditionalists.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Actually, on some doctrines such as Purgatory, there is a wide variance of interpretation even among theologians in the RCC.

Oh, I see. You mean the variance is openly taught...
didn't catch that - but it's good to speak up.

 

[rturner76]

There was more unity before this Pope...
many are praying for him to go away because he is not their idea of a Pope..that would be the Traditionalists.

This is true. There are Catholics who don't even recognize Pope Francis as Pope. With this Pope, the Church made a move to modernize. They want new money coming and people are more attracted to the salvation message than the obedience message.

The Church basically got more Paulian under the new Pope and traditionalists are more Peter followers IMO. He wants the Church to open its doors to the masses and hope that they stay for the obedience part. It comes across as more sin being tolerated but the real aim is to convert people. It's political too.

 

[concretecamper]

If we want to search deeper, you and I would have to agree that even within Catholicism there is an outer veneer of agreement on all doctrine, but going deeper we find that not all priests agree on all issues.
I don't use the word theologian because I don't believe a Catholic theologian CAN disagree with a doctrine, at least openly.

You are comparing apples and oranges.

You are comparing individual Catholics to entire denominations. The Anglican Church teaches something totally different about Baptism than does the Baptist Church than does Billy Bob's Church or the 10s of thousands of others. Furthermore, you have Protestant Churchs routinely changing what faith and morals they are teaching.

You will not find the Catholic Church changing what is taught regarding faith amd morals. You wont find the same within the protestant phenomenon.

 

[GodsGrace101]

You are comparing apples and oranges.

You are comparing individual Catholics to entire denominations. The Anglican Church teaches something totally different about Baptism than does the Baptist Church than does Billy Bob's Church or the 10s of thousands of others. Furthermore, you have Protestant Churchs routinely changing what faith and morals they are teaching.

You will not find the Catholic Church changing what is taught regarding faith amd morals. You wont find the same within the protestant phenomenon.

I don't understand how I'm comparing apples and oranges or about individuals vs denominations. In fact I think teaching something one doesn't believe is rather dishonest. But, as you may know, catholics have to agree with all doctrine. Most don't.

However, I strongly agree with your last paragraph.
Some Protestant denominations have succumbed
To post modernism and thus the downfall of our society.

 

[GodsGrace101]

This is true. There are Catholics who don't even recognize Pope Francis as Pope. With this Pope, the Church made a move to modernize. They want new money coming and people are more attracted to the salvation message than the obedience message.

The Church basically got more Paulian under the new Pope and traditionalists are more Peter followers IMO. He wants the Church to open its doors to the masses and hope that they stay for the obedience part. It comes across as more sin being tolerated but the real aim is to convert people. It's political too.

I find that the CC does teach the message of Jesus and salvation by faith. They just don't believe in the faith only movement and neither do I. I don't think the church tolerates more sin.

How do you think Paul and Peter differ?

 

[bbbbbbb]

I don't understand how I'm comparing apples and oranges or about individuals vs denominations. In fact I think teaching something one doesn't believe is rather dishonest. But, as you may know, catholics have to agree with all doctrine. Most don't.

However, I strongly agree with your last paragraph.
Some Protestant denominations have succumbed
To post modernism and thus the downfall of our society.

I think the great turning point in general Catholic doctrinal unity happened in the 1960's with two things - Vatican II and birth control. Vatican II overturned church life radically for most Catholics in the pews. The high altar was removed from the wall where the priest had faced it and said the mass in Latin and a new central altar was installed with the priest facing the people reciting the mass in the common language. No longer was the Church unchanging. This had a massive psychological wave effect.

As the Catholic Church prohibited virtually all forms of birth control there was a groundswell of rejection on the part of most married couples. Today the birth rate among Catholics in developed countries is virtually the same as non-Catholics. It is evident that Catholics are actively engaging in birth control - and not confessing it to their priests.

 

[concretecamper]

I don't understand how I'm comparing apples and oranges or about individuals vs denominations. In fact I think teaching something one doesn't believe is rather dishonest. But, as you may know, catholics have to agree with all doctrine. Most don't.

you are focusing on individuals dissenting from what is taught. You will always have that. In protestantism, if I dont agree with something, I go find a place that agrees with what I think. It is SS at its finest.

What I am saying is that Protestant denominations teach their members entirely different gospels depending on what the leadership THINKS the Gospel is teaching. This leads to the 10s of thousands denomination and changing of morals and faith.

The Catholic Church has never changed its morals or faith becasue it relys on what Christ taught His Church and She reliably interprets scripture becasue scripture is part of Her Sacred Tradition.

 

[Valletta]

Actually, on some doctrines such as Purgatory, there is a wide variance of interpretation even among theologians in the RCC.

Theologians have speculated about the purification spoken of in the Bible as a "cleansing fire" which the Catholic Church calls Purgatory. It is also implied by prayers for the dead as also documented in the Bible. Whether it is a place or state the Bible simple does not say, theologians can have at it.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Theologians have speculated about the purification spoken of in the Bible as a "cleansing fire" which the Catholic Church calls Purgatory. It is also implied by prayers for the dead as also documented in the Bible. Whether it is a place or state the Bible simple does not say, theologians can have at it.

That seems to be what is happening now with Catholic theologians completely across the spectrum ranging from those who view Purgatory on the same level as Limbo (nonexistent) to those who hold the traditional view that the only significant difference between Purgatory and the lake of fire is simply a matter of time spent in the former versus eternity in the latter.

 

[concretecamper]

That seems to be what is happening now with Catholic theologians completely across the spectrum ranging from those who view Purgatory on the same level as Limbo

which Catholic theologian is this?

 

[Valletta]

I think the great turning point in general Catholic doctrinal unity happened in the 1960's with two things - Vatican II and birth control. Vatican II overturned church life radically for most Catholics in the pews. The high altar was removed from the wall where the priest had faced it and said the mass in Latin and a new central altar was installed with the priest facing the people reciting the mass in the common language. No longer was the Church unchanging. This had a massive psychological wave effect.

As the Catholic Church prohibited virtually all forms of birth control there was a groundswell of rejection on the part of most married couples. Today the birth rate among Catholics in developed countries is virtually the same as non-Catholics. It is evident that Catholics are actively engaging in birth control - and not confessing it to their priests.

Birth control was pronounced by the Catholic Church long before the 1960s. Languages of the mass liturgy have changed over the last almost 2000 years as has the situation of the altar and what the priest faces. Your statement that somehow in the 1960s "No longer was the Church unchanging" is ridiculous.

 

[bbbbbbb]

which Catholic theologian is this?

You can check out Rev. Fr. Frederick William Faber

 

[bbbbbbb]

Birth control was pronounced by the Catholic Church long before the 1960s. Languages of the mass liturgy have changed over the last almost 2000 years as has the situation of the altar and what the priest faces. Your statement that somehow in the 1960s "No longer was the Church unchanging" is ridiculous.

While what you say is quite true (except for the idea that the Catholic Church is not unchanging), my statement was that there was a major cultural shift among Catholics in the pews during the 1960's engendered primarily by both Vatican II and the rejection of the Church's teachings regarding birth control.

Despite what you might think, there was an enormous visual change as the high altars were removed from the east wall and altars placed toward the nave so that the priest would say mass facing the people rather than the altar alone. Among traditional Catholics, there was much dissension, which continues to this day even as some favor the Latin Tridentine mass only.

One of the standard refrains from Catholics is that they belong to the Church which Christ Himself founded and which has been unchanging (although it is now frequently modified with the addition if "in matters of faith and morals").

 

[concretecamper]

You can check out Rev. Fr. Frederick William Faber

he did not hold the view you claimed (the one I quoted).

 

[bbbbbbb]

he did not hold the view you claimed (the one I quoted).

You asked me, "Which theologian is this?" I gave you a Catholic theologian that has published his views on Purgatory. His are not the only views on the doctrine, as he readily acknowledges.

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

you are focusing on individuals dissenting from what is taught. You will always have that. In protestantism, if I dont agree with something, I go find a place that agrees with what I think. It is SS at its finest.

What about people who become RC bc the church accords with their beliefs?