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Name a doctrine that you used to believe in but dont anymore.

LittleLambofJesus

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Originally Posted by bornofGod888
For me, the scriptures are the source of "true orthodoxy" and not the opinions of men, no matter how popular or accepted they may be.
What is the difference between interpretation/exegesis, opinions of men, and Scripture as the source? Also, how do you distinguish between them?
Good questions.
What would be your answer?

http://www.christianforums.com/t7765019-3/
The suspicious use of Eisegesis rather than exegesis

Eisegesis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Eisegesis (from Greek εἰς "into" as opposed to exegesis from ἐξηγεῖσθαι "to lead out") is the process of interpreting a text or portion of text in such a way that it introduces one's own presuppositions, agendas, and/or biases into and onto the text..........

Exegesis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Exegesis (from the Greek ἐξήγησις from ἐξηγεῖσθαι 'to lead out') is a critical explanation or interpretation of a text, especially a religious text.
Traditionally the term was used primarily for exegesis of the Bible; however, in contemporary usage it has broadened to mean a critical explanation of any text, and the term "biblical exegesis" is used for greater specificity.



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A semi-Pelagian is one who believes that man is able to have "initial faith" all on his own apart from God's grace, but needs God's grace for the rest. Now, if we were to find an Arminian who believed that, then that person would certainly be a semi-Pelagian. However, that person wouldn't truly be an Arminian.
 
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Tzaousios

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Good questions.
What would be your answer?

My answer? Well, I am a historian by trade, not a theologian. However, I do know that exegesis and interpretation has been transformed into a science since the arrival of German literary-criticism around the end of the 19th century.

Before that, though, there weren't many established rules, but some suggested rules of thumb and the beginnings of methodology. Augustine had a hand in developing exegesis during the early church. One thing is constant, though, in that early interpreters always considered historical context and the communal aspect of Biblical interpretation, within the Church as a community.
 
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bornofGod888

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What is the difference between interpretation/exegesis, opinions of men, and Scripture as the source? Also, how do you distinguish between them?

I'm sorry...I started answering this question earlier and then my internet router went down and I lost my post and my internet connection. It's just as well, though, as I've decided to answer your question in a different manner than I had initially planned to answer it. IOW, I've decided to give you what I believe to be an excellent example of how faulty "interpretations", terrible "exegesis" and scripture denying "opinions of men" cloud the actual intended meanings of scripture. Seeing how the topic of Calvinism has been addressed here and seeing how I've already publicly stated that I firmly believe that Calvin was a heretic and seeing how Calvinism's "strongest argument" (allegedly) is found in Romans chapter 9 (their butchering of that chapter, that is), I'm going to provide links to a 6 part video presentation where the chapter is addressed from both the Calvinistic viewpoint and the opposing viewpoint, too. Initially, it will sound as if the speaker is a Calvinist as he explains how Calvinists "interpret" the scriptures in Romans chapter 9, but, before the video presentation is through, you ought to be able to realize what a heretic Calvin actually was. Anyhow, the entire presentation is about 50 minutes in duration. Hopefully, some/all of the Calvinists on this thread will view the entire video presentation and renounce their erroneous beliefs by the end of the same. After all, 50 minutes watching a video is better than having to explain to Jesus Christ how/why you were the spreader of heresy, isn't it? Anyhow, here are the links:

Romans 9: Predestination or Free Will? Part 1 - YouTube

Romans 9: Predestination or Free Will? Part 2 - YouTube

Romans 9: Predestination or Free Will? Part 3 - YouTube

Romans 9: Predestination or Free Will? Part 4 - YouTube

Romans 9: Predestination or Free Will? Part 5 - YouTube

Romans 9: Predestination or Free Will? Part 6 - YouTube
 
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To properly address your comment above, a person could write a small book. R.C. Sproul wrote a book years ago dealing with history behind the free will debate entitled: "Willing to Believe".

The term "Arminian" can and is used in a variety of ways. Most "Arminians" are not classical Arminians in the sense of holding the same beliefs as the man Arminus behind the term. There are so many shades of Arminianism that it's not even funny, but they all have something in common, they all deny "total inability". They all affirm reguardless of position on original sin, even depravity, that all humans are capable, within the will, of responding to God with faith. The semi-palagian position could be described as cooperating with the Grace of God, while the Arminian position could be described as free to believe, or visa versa. I agree with Dr. Sproul's analysis:

"Though the Pelagian controversy ended with the condemnation of Pelagius and his followers, the views of Augustine were not universally accepted in all their details. At first, opposition arose to some elements of Augustine's thought in North Africa. Some monks from the monastery of Adrumetum in North Africa objected to Augustine's view of predestination and to his view that fallen man is morally unable to incline himself to the grace of God. Questions arising from this debate prompted Augustine to write On Grace and Free Will and On Rebuke and Grace. These works were answered by the abbot of the monastery, Valentinus, in a cordial and respectful manner.

As discussion continued in North Africa, a more violent opposition to Augustine's views erupted in France, particularly in the south at Massilia. Friends of Augustine, Hilary and Prosper, reported to him this opposition and urged him to write a response. Augustine did so in his final two works, On the Predestination of the Saints and On the Gift of Perseverance. In these works Augustine dealt more gently with his critics than he did with Pelagius, regarding them as brothers in the faith. This attitude anticipates the aura of future controversies. In the main, both Augustinians and semi-Pelagians tend to regard Pelagianism as a heresy so serious that it is non-Christian, while the on-going controversy between Augustinianism and semi-Pelagianism is an intramural debate among believers. Though the issues involved are deemed to be quite serious by both sides, they are not regarded to be so serious as to be essential to Christian faith." - Sproul, R. (1997). Willing to believe: The controversy over free will (electronic ed.) (69-70). Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Books.

and further into the book...

"Repeatedly the Synod of Dort charges the Remonstrants with teaching the doctrines of Pelagianism. Is not this charge overly severe and unfair? Both Arminius and the Remonstrants sought to distance themselves from pure Pelagianism. Arminianism is often said to be semi-Pelagian, but not, strictly speaking, Pelagian. What the fathers of Dort probably had in mind is the link between semi-Pelagianism and Pelagianism that renders the semi-Pelagian unable to escape the fundamental thesis of Pelagianism." - Sproul, R. (1997). Willing to believe: The controversy over free will (electronic ed.) (140). Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Books.

As educated as R.C. Sproul is, I am amazed at how frequently he botches up facts.

Do the Arminians believe that they do not need God's grace for faith and repentance? If so, they would be semi-Pelagians. If not, while they may not be Reformed, they would not be semi-Pelagian.
 
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Rick Otto

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A semi-Pelagian is one who believes that man is able to have "initial faith" all on his own apart from God's grace, but needs God's grace for the rest. Now, if we were to find an Arminian who believed that, then that person would certainly be a semi-Pelagian. However, that person wouldn't truly be an Arminian.
OK, why not?
 
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bornofGod888

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Btw, I'm leaving this forum tomorrow night for at least a month so if anybody does watch the video presentation that I linked to, then I'd appreciate sincere feedback in relation to the same in as timely a manner as possible...or else I'm not going to even see it for at least a month (and maybe never). Thanks.
 
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MoreCoffee

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OK, why not?

Possibly because Arminians believe that all human abilities are grace gifts?

On election Arminians say: That God, by an eternal, unchangeable purpose in Jesus Christ, his Son, before the foundation of the world, hath determined, out of the fallen, sinful race of men, to save in Christ, for Christ’s sake, and through Christ, those who, through the grace of the Holy Ghost, shall believe on this his Son Jesus, and shall persevere in this faith and obedience of faith, through this grace, even to the end; and, on the other hand, to leave the incorrigible and unbelieving in sin and under wrath, and to condemn them as alienate from Christ, according to the word of the Gospel in John iii. 36: “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life; and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him,” and according to other passages of Scripture also.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Originally Posted by LittleLambofJesus
Good questions.
What would be your answer?
My answer? Well, I am a historian by trade, not a theologian.
However, I do know that exegesis and interpretation has been transformed into a science since the arrival of German literary-criticism around the end of the 19th century.

Before that, though, there weren't many established rules, but some suggested rules of thumb and the beginnings of methodology. Augustine had a hand in developing exegesis during the early church.
One thing is constant, though, in that early interpreters always considered historical context and the communal aspect of Biblical interpretation, within the Church as a community.
Thanks for bringing attention to the "historical" vs the "theologian" aspect of scriptural interpretation.


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As educated as R.C. Sproul is, I am amazed at how frequently he botches up facts.

Ah yes, I expected as much, the same could be said of most all re-telling of history, no? But that is because the "facts" are not neutral, they are not independent of God, and those dealing with "facts" do so within an interpretive framework, a network of beliefs, a worldview.

Do the Arminians believe that they do not need God's grace for faith and repentance? If so, they would be semi-Pelagians. If not, while they may not be Reformed, they would not be semi-Pelagian.

Please read the following quotes:

"The leading spokesman of the semi-Pelagian party was John Cassian, abbot of the monastery of Massilia. He is so identified with semi-Pelagianism that it is sometimes called Cassianism. Cassian bowed before the inscrutable mystery of God’s decrees and was reluctant to probe deeply into the question of predestination. His chief concern was to safeguard the universality of God’s grace and the real moral accountability of fallen man." - Sproul, R. (1997). Willing to believe: The controversy over free will (electronic ed.) (70). Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Books.

and..

"Over against Pelagius, Cassian insisted that grace is necessary for righteousness. This grace, however, is resistible. For it to be effective the human will must cooperate with it. Cassian is primarily concerned here to maintain that we are unable to do any good without God’s help and that our free will must be active.

Adolph Harnack summarizes Cassian’s view:

God’s grace is the foundation of our salvation; every beginning is to be traced to it, in so far as it brings the chance of salvation and the possibility of being saved. But that is external grace; inner grace is that which lays hold of a man, enlightens, chastens, and sanctifies him, and penetrates his will as well as his intelligence. Human virtue can neither grow nor be perfected without this grace—therefore the virtues of the heathens are very small. But the beginnings of the good resolve, good thoughts, and faith—understood as the preparation for grace—can be due to ourselves. Hence grace is absolutely necessary in order to reach final salvation (perfection), but not so much so in order to make a start. It accompanies us at all stages of our inner growth, and our exertions are of no avail without it (libero arbitrio semper co-operatur); but it only supports and accompanies him who really strives.… even this … action of grace is not irresistible." - Sproul, R. (1997). Willing to believe: The controversy over free will (electronic ed.) (72). Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Books.

So there is your answer, and it appears you are incorrect, sorry.
 
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Rick Otto

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After all, 50 minutes watching a video is better than having to explain to Jesus Christ how/why you were the spreader of heresy, isn't it? Anyhow, here are the links:
Confidence is a wonderful feeling.
I skipped to #3. That guy is a wonderfuly gifted speaker & I was agreeing with everything he said until he tried the 'Esau have I hated isn't about individuals" routine.
I don't disagree at all that it's about nations, but it having to do with nations boiled down to it having to do with two individuals.
I'm done.
 
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bornofGod888

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Confidence is a wonderful feeling.
I skipped to #3. That guy is a wonderfuly gifted speaker & I was agreeing with everything he said until he tried the 'Esau have I hated isn't about individuals" routine.
I don't disagree at all that it's about nations, but it having to do with nations boiled down to it having to do with two individuals.
I'm done.

Huh?

First of all, why would you start with video #3 and not video #1?

In any case, contextually, "Esau have I hated" is definitely about the nation of Edom. Read where it was originally said in Malachi, more than 1,000 years after Esau was dead, for context and don't let heretics like Calvin deceive you.
 
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Knee V

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Ah yes, I expected as much, the same could be said of most all re-telling of history, no? But that is because the "facts" are not neutral, they are not independent of God, and those dealing with "facts" do so within an interpretive framework, a network of beliefs, a worldview.

Please read the following quotes:

"The leading spokesman of the semi-Pelagian party was John Cassian, abbot of the monastery of Massilia. He is so identified with semi-Pelagianism that it is sometimes called Cassianism. Cassian bowed before the inscrutable mystery of God’s decrees and was reluctant to probe deeply into the question of predestination. His chief concern was to safeguard the universality of God’s grace and the real moral accountability of fallen man." - Sproul, R. (1997). Willing to believe: The controversy over free will (electronic ed.) (70). Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Books.

and..

"Over against Pelagius, Cassian insisted that grace is necessary for righteousness. This grace, however, is resistible. For it to be effective the human will must cooperate with it. Cassian is primarily concerned here to maintain that we are unable to do any good without God’s help and that our free will must be active.

Adolph Harnack summarizes Cassian’s view:

God’s grace is the foundation of our salvation; every beginning is to be traced to it, in so far as it brings the chance of salvation and the possibility of being saved. But that is external grace; inner grace is that which lays hold of a man, enlightens, chastens, and sanctifies him, and penetrates his will as well as his intelligence. Human virtue can neither grow nor be perfected without this grace—therefore the virtues of the heathens are very small. But the beginnings of the good resolve, good thoughts, and faith—understood as the preparation for grace—can be due to ourselves. Hence grace is absolutely necessary in order to reach final salvation (perfection), but not so much so in order to make a start. It accompanies us at all stages of our inner growth, and our exertions are of no avail without it (libero arbitrio semper co-operatur); but it only supports and accompanies him who really strives.… even this … action of grace is not irresistible." - Sproul, R. (1997). Willing to believe: The controversy over free will (electronic ed.) (72). Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Books.

So there is your answer, and it appears you are incorrect, sorry.

Harnack and Sproul are reading Cassian through reformational eyes. As long as they do that they will present to their readers a biased view of his writings. They are flat out wrong in their assessment of Cassian. Cassian was not a semi-Pelagian.

As a general rule, don't listen to the Reformed for an understanding of pre-Reformation history.
 
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Confidence is a wonderful feeling.
I skipped to #3. That guy is a wonderfuly gifted speaker & I was agreeing with everything he said until he tried the 'Esau have I hated isn't about individuals" routine.

I don't disagree at all that it's about nations, but it having to do with nations boiled down to it having to do with two individuals.
I'm done.

I remember responding to a person with the handle "Butch" on that very point, if I remember correctly, I concluded that nations are made up of what? Yes individuals, very good. Also pointed to other places in the same Chapter referring to individuals. Those suggesting the apostle Paul is referring to a hatred of nations, is ridiculous, and contrary to the great commission, and other Pauline writings, not to mention Romans is addressed primarily to Gentiles...
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Originally Posted by Apologetic_Warrior

Ah yes, I expected as much, the same could be said of most all re-telling of history, no? But that is because the "facts" are not neutral, they are not independent of God, and those dealing with "facts" do so within an interpretive framework, a network of beliefs, a worldview.

Harnack and Sproul are reading Cassian through reformational eyes. As long as they do that they will present to their readers a biased view of his writings. They are flat out wrong in their assessment of Cassian. Cassian was not a semi-Pelagian.

As a general rule, don't listen to the Reformed for an understanding of pre-Reformation history.
Isn't that being a little "closed minded"?






.
 
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Tzaousios

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I think it is very puzzling that Sproul would appeal to Harnack for anything considering some of the unorthodox opinions he held about the deity of Christ and role of Paul in the early church.
 
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