N.T. Wright - Challenging his theology

Tree of Life

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This is close to mine. First, he denies that Adam's sin is just imputed to us.
Second, he says that we are accepted as righteous because we possess Christ. He speaks of the righteousness of Christ in bringing us to salvation, but doesn't (at least not here) speak of that righteousness as being imputed to us.

You don't understand Calvin. Calvin very much taught imputation both here and elsewhere. He denies that we are condemned only because of the imputation of Adam's sin, but he does not deny that Adam's sin is indeed imputed to us. He is also writing against the Roman notion of an imparted righteousness here and very much suggesting the legal imputation of Christ's righteousness.
 
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hedrick

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Whose righteousness is accounted and I’m sure you know accounted is the same as imputed?
Ours. Righteousness means being right before God. We are considered to be right before God because we are Christ's, despite the fact that we wouldn't merit that on our own.
 
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redleghunter

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Every time you see imputed righteousness you replace it with Christ's righteousness imputed to us. There's no reason to do that.

The problem with doing the replacement is that you blur the distinction that Luther discovered between God's righteousness and ours.
Everytime you say righteousness you leave it nebulous on Whose it is.

It’s not ours and is a gift. I already explained this and how Paul links the Righteousness accounted to us or imputed is based on the obedience of Christ.

Makes perfect sense as we cannot be justified on any of our merits or obedience but only Christ’s.
 
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redleghunter

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Ours. Righteousness means being right with God. We are considered to be right with God because we are Christ's, despite the fact that we wouldn't merit that on our own.
Our righteousness? Explain how our righteousness justifies us.
 
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redleghunter

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We are considered to be right with God because we are Christ's, despite the fact that we wouldn't merit that on our own.
We are Christ’s because He is the Just and Justifier. That’s right out of Romans 3:26

Again let us not confuse the faith which obtains the gift with the Gift which is by Grace alone.
 
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hedrick

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Our righteousness? Explain how our righteousness justifies us.
Our righteousness doesn't justify us. We are accounted righteous because God has justified us. Righteousness depends upon justification, not the reverse. God justifies the unrighteous.
 
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redleghunter

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Our righteousness doesn't justify us. We are accounted righteous because God has justified us.
We are getting somewhere.

Whose righteousness is accounted (imputed) and why?

There’s a reason we are justified. Meaning the provision is acceptable in the sight of the Father. Jesus satisfied that provision and as the Just Jesus becomes the Justifier. Do the math.
 
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hedrick

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Whose righteousness is accounted (imputed) and why?
You keep asking a question that as far as I can tell makes no sense. We are considered to be righteous because we are justified. Righteousness isn't a commodity that has to come from somewhere. It's a status. One is righteous when one is living in a way that God approves. God considers us to be righteous because we are in Christ.

For a lot of purposes it doesn't really matter if you consider that Christ's righteousness is imputed to us, since it doesn't change the basic point that righteousness is imputed on the basis of Christ's work for us.

But seeing righteousness as moral perfection rather than God's approval tends to support legalism. And it does make it hard to understand 2 Cor 5:21. In that passage Paul is playing on the distinction between our righteousness -- which is our status before God -- and God's righteousness -- which is his commitment to save us, and saying that we are the embodiment of God's commitment to save people. If you don't understand the distinction the passage loses its rather radical meaning.
 
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redleghunter

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You keep asking a question that as far as I can tell makes no sense. We are considered to be righteous because we are justified. Righteousness isn't a commodity that has to come from somewhere. It's a status. One is righteous when one is living in a way that God approves. God considers us to be righteous because we are in Christ.
You keep using the sanctification language post Romans 5.

The “we are considered to be righteous because we are justified” is a nebulous statement as Paul clarifies why and by Whom we are made righteous and thus justified.

Being declared righteous because we are in Christ is also not the full story. It’s our imputed sins Christ bears and it is through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.

This one act of righteousness...Who did that?
 
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redleghunter

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You keep asking a question that as far as I can tell makes no sense.
Makes perfect sense.

We see often we are justified by faith, but many miss what that entails. The actual free gift of Grace is quite amazing. Yet daily we see here all sorts of ideas injecting man somewhere in the gift.

We obtain the gift through faith which in itself is a supernatural calling of God.
 
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hedrick

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Being declared righteous because we are in Christ is also not the full story. It’s our imputed sins Christ bears and it is through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.

This one act of righteousness...Who did that?
No it's not. I tried in an earlier posting to give more context. Yes, it's because we die in Christ and are raised to new life with him.

Obviously Christ did that.
 
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Tree of Life

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Ours. Righteousness means being right before God. We are considered to be right before God because we are Christ's, despite the fact that we wouldn't merit that on our own.

Your view of imputation fails to account for the need for the second person of the Trinity to take on humanity. Why was it significant that Jesus lived a human life and died a human death?
 
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Tree of Life

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We are considered to be righteous because we are justified.

You've got it backwards. Justification is the declaration that we are righteous. We are "justified" because we are somehow righteous. Our righteousness doesn't come from our justification, our justification comes from our righteousness. So the question is what righteousness do we have that elicits God's justification. The answer: Christ's righteousness imputed to us.
 
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hedrick

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You've got it backwards. Justification is the declaration that we are righteous. We are "justified" because we are somehow righteous. Our righteousness doesn't come from our justification, our justification comes from our righteousness. So the question is what righteousness do we have that elicits God's justification. The answer: Christ's righteousness imputed to us.
Huh? If justification is the act of declaring us righteous (which I agree), then righteousness is its result. If we were already righteous we wouldn't need justification. God justifies the ungodly.

I think what you want to say is that in justifying us, God imputes Christ's righteousness to us. Still not what Paul says, but not quite as bad.
 
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redleghunter

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Yes, it's because we die in Christ and are raised to new life with him.
That is correct and spoken of in Romans 6. That is the chapter which teaches us what happens with one who has been justified.
 
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Tree of Life

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Huh? If justification is the act of declaring us righteous (which I agree), then righteousness is its result. If we were already righteous we wouldn't need justification. God justifies the ungodly.

The Bible actually teaches that God vindicates (justifies) the righteous and not the wicked. Psalm 26:1 says - "Vindicate me, O Lord, for I have walked in my integrity, and I have trusted in the Lord without wavering."

The Bible condemns the judge who would dare to justify the wicked. Proverbs 17:15 says - "He who justifies the wicked and he who condemns the righteous are both alike an abomination to the Lord." If the act of justifying was an act of making a sinner righteous, as the Catholics teach, then Proverbs 17:15 would be strange. What would be so bad about making sinners righteous?

No, no, no. Justification is the act of recognizing and legally declaring one to be righteous. The amazing thing is that God would declare a sinner to be righteous. How can God possibly do this without it being a legal fiction or a violation of justice? Only by the righteousness of Christ imputed to the believer.

You may not know it, but what you are promoting is the Roman Catholic position and is not at all consistent with Reformed theology or the Westminster Standards.

I think what you want to say is that in justifying us, God imputes Christ's righteousness to us. Still not what Paul says, but not quite as bad.

Paul taught what the Reformers taught concerning justification.
 
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hedrick

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The Bible actually teaches that God vindicates (justifies) the righteous and not the wicked. Psalm 26:1 says - "Vindicate me, O Lord, for I have walked in my integrity, and I have trusted in the Lord without wavering."
I was quoting Rom 4:5. God does justify the ungodly. He declares them righteous in justification. They aren’t righteous before his declaration.

Westminster:

“Those whom God effectually calleth, he also freely justifieth: not by infusing righteousness into them, but by pardoning their sins and by accounting and accepting their persons as righteous;”

This says, as I do, that he accepts them as righteous as an effect of justification. I don’t think you’ll find Reformation standards saying that we are righteous before God justifies us. If we were already righteous, the verdict would be one based on our merit.
 
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Tree of Life

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I was quoting Rom 4:5. God does justify the ungodly. He declares them righteous in justification. They aren’t righteous before his declaration.

Westminster:

“Those whom God effectually calleth, he also freely justifieth: not by infusing righteousness into them, but by pardoning their sins and by accounting and accepting their persons as righteous;”

This says, as I do, that he accepts them as righteous as an effect of justification. I don’t think you’ll find Reformation standards saying that we are righteous before God justifies us. If we were already righteous, the verdict would be one based on our merit.

The full throated Reformed understanding is to say that God constitutes and declares us righteous in our justification. It is not a declaration that has no legal ground. The legal grounds of the declaration is the actual righteousness of Christ imputed to the believer.

Westminster:

Q. 70. What is justification?

A. Justification is an act of God’s free grace unto sinners,[286] in which he pardoneth all their sins, accepteth and accounteth their persons righteous in his sight;[287] not for any thing wrought in them, or done by them,[288] but only for the perfect obedience and full satisfaction of Christ, by God imputed to them,[289] and received by faith alone.[290]

Westminster says that God's justification of sinners is based on the "perfect obedience and full satisfaction of Christ, by God imputed to them."

So the imputation comes along with the justification. It may not be temporally or logically prior to being declared righteous. But justification includes both a constituting (imputation) and declaring to be righteous. In other words, without the imputed righteousness of Christ there could be no justification of sinners.
 
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