Mystical faith in Christianity while dismissing historical Jesus and Judaism

[cloudyday2]

(Sorry if I have asked this question before. I cannot remember but it is a recurring question in my mind.)

Is there anybody out there who considers himself/herself a Christian while simultaneously dismissing the historical truth? For example, maybe you believe in a mystical Christ who is not the same person as the historical Jesus of Nazareth, and maybe you believe in a mystical Father/God who is not the same person as the historical god of Yahwism and Second Temple Judaism?

 

[HTacianas]

(Sorry if I have asked this question before. I cannot remember but it is a recurring question in my mind.)

Is there anybody out there who considers himself/herself a Christian while simultaneously dismissing the historical truth? For example, maybe you believe in a mystical Christ who is not the same person as the historical Jesus of Nazareth, and maybe you believe in a mystical Father/God who is not the same person as the historical god of Yahwism and Second Temple Judaism?

That would make you something other than Christian. But you are not the first one to have those ideas.

 

[cloudyday2]

My motivation for asking is that my mother would like me to attend church, but I don't believe anything that I would be expected to say in a Divine Liturgy. There is also the communion issue.

I have tried to keep my lack of faith to myself, because I know it would bother my mother deeply. I hate that something so silly as a religion can divide people.

 

[HTacianas]

My motivation for asking is that my mother would like me to attend church, but I don't believe anything that I would be expected to say in a Divine Liturgy. There is also the communion issue.

I have tried to keep my lack of faith to myself, because I know it would bother my mother deeply. I hate that something so silly as a religion can divide people.

I'm glad that you attend the liturgy.

The decision to continue is entirely up to you. Oftentimes we can be at odds with parents over religion but it's been my experience that it usually has more to do with the parent/offspring relationship than religion itself.

If you gave us your top three reasons why, what would they be?

 

[Hazelelponi]

My motivation for asking is that my mother would like me to attend church, but I don't believe anything that I would be expected to say in a Divine Liturgy. There is also the communion issue.

I have tried to keep my lack of faith to myself, because I know it would bother my mother deeply. I hate that something so silly as a religion can divide people.

Can you specify what's in the liturgy that you disagree with?

Perhaps finding out your points of disagreement would enable me to better help you, as I'm unfamiliar with Eastern Orthodox.

 

[Tom 1]

(Sorry if I have asked this question before. I cannot remember but it is a recurring question in my mind.)

Is there anybody out there who considers himself/herself a Christian while simultaneously dismissing the historical truth? For example, maybe you believe in a mystical Christ who is not the same person as the historical Jesus of Nazareth, and maybe you believe in a mystical Father/God who is not the same person as the historical god of Yahwism and Second Temple Judaism?

Everyone does - no group has a completely uniform understanding of any of those things. Our ideas about God and Jesus are as individual as anything else we have an opinion on, they might be broadly similar to some extent but not the same by any means. That goes for historical 'truth' also - broach any subject on the historicity of the bible in a thread and you'll get a wide range of differing ideas about it.

 

[cloudyday2]

@HTacianas and @Hazelelponi , my beliefs are similar to skeptical scholars such as Bart Ehrman, Wiliiam Devers, Geza Vermes, etc. I believe the historical Jesus was probably somebody more like David Koresh of the Branch Davidians (i.e. a typical charismatic cult leader and maybe a naive revolutionary).

On the other hand, I do think there might be a mystical reality that is either intentionally or coincidentally reflected in Christian/Jewish theology and fictional narratives. I have some curiosity and an open-minded attitude towards paranormal, UFOs, and a higher power.

 

[Hazelelponi]

@HTacianas and @Hazelelponi , my beliefs are similar to skeptical scholars such as Bart Ehrman, Wiliiam Devers, Geza Vermes, etc. I believe the historical Jesus was probably somebody more like David Koresh of the Branch Davidians (i.e. a typical charismatic cult leader and maybe a naive revolutionary).

On the other hand, I do think there might be a mystical reality that is either intentionally or coincidentally reflected in Christian/Jewish theology and fictional narratives. I have some curiosity and an open-minded attitude towards paranormal, UFOs, and a higher power.

Question - what do you believe of the Bible?

 

[HTacianas]

@HTacianas and @Hazelelponi , my beliefs are similar to skeptical scholars such as Bart Ehrman, Wiliiam Devers, Geza Vermes, etc. I believe the historical Jesus was probably somebody more like David Koresh of the Branch Davidians (i.e. a typical charismatic cult leader and maybe a naive revolutionary).

On the other hand, I do think there might be a mystical reality that is either intentionally or coincidentally reflected in Christian/Jewish theology and fictional narratives. I have some curiosity and an open-minded attitude towards paranormal, UFOs, and a higher power.

I don't care that much for Bart Ehrman but I've read a lot of Geza Vermes. I especially liked his translation of the Dead Sea Scrolls.

But you're right to an extent about Jesus, though I wouldn't compare him to a David Koresh. It was fairly common at that time for a rabbi to have a group of followers and to even draw crowds, so Jesus wouldn't have been considered out of the mainstream like Jim Jones.

But you bring up the point of a "mystical reality", which is a reality for many. And that reality began with Jesus.

You're by no means the first person ever to have questions like yours. We've all had them. But one of the mistakes I've made in the past is to have an unanswerable question and reach the point of giving up only to find the answer later.

It's probably best to simply plod along for now and keep asking questions. And keep reading. You might be surprised at what you find.

 

[cloudyday2]

Question - what do you believe of the Bible?

I think most books of the Bible were written by different people at different times for different reasons. Like the gospel of Matthew has layers of composition from different eras. Each new layer of edits changes the meaning.

You have heard the joke about something being designed by a committee? The Bible and the religions associated are like that. Or maybe a better example is one of those online stories where each page is written by a new person and the story arc keeps changing in unexpected and comical directions.

 

[cloudyday2]

It's probably best to simply plod along for now and keep asking questions. And keep reading. You might be surprised at what you find.

My mother attends an EO church like you. It isn't pleasant to stand for an hour or more singing songs that I don't believe or - even more uncomfortable - standing silent and abstaining from communion and drawing attention to myself in that way. My mother would certainly expect me to fully participate.

I have tried that before. They don't call it the "Orthodox" church for no reason. The whole thing is designed to ferret-out the heretics from the community and ostracize them.

 

[HTacianas]

My mother attends and EO church like you. It isn't pleasant to stand for an hour or more singing songs that I don't believe or - even more uncomfortable - standing silent and abstaining from communion and drawing attention to myself in that way. My mother would certainly expect me to fully participate.

I have tried that before. They don't call it the "Orthodox" church for no reason. The whole thing is designed to ferret-out the heretics from the community and ostracize them.

Why would you want to be a heretic?

 

[cloudyday2]

Why would you want to be a heretic?

I am sure the high priests asked Jesus that same question LOL. Some of us are just troublemakers I guess

 

[Hazelelponi]

My mother attends an EO church like you. It isn't pleasant to stand for an hour or more singing songs that I don't believe or - even more uncomfortable - standing silent and abstaining from communion and drawing attention to myself in that way. My mother would certainly expect me to fully participate.

I have tried that before. They don't call it the "Orthodox" church for no reason. The whole thing is designed to ferret-out the heretics from the community and ostracize them.

I agree with some of what @HTacianas says, this is simply a journey of understanding you must take, asking questions and participating in discussions and consider them all to come to faith.

I came from an Islamic background and came to a saving faith in Christ, so I do understand that each person's journey is their own, and it seems to me you should ask specific questions you need to ask and consider the answers.. give it the time you need to grasp what needs grasped.

God bless, I will keep you in my prayers.

 

[Hazelelponi]

I am sure the high priests asked Jesus that same question LOL. Some of us are just troublemakers I guess

Haha.. my husband says I'm hard headed too... lol..

 

[HTacianas]

I am sure the high priests asked Jesus that same question LOL. Some of us are just troublemakers I guess

Well don't go getting yourself crucified.

There is nothing wrong with the questions you have. And you will find answers to them. There are two things you should remember. One is Pascal's Wager. Blaise Pascal had it that if you behave yourself as if God exists, He will reward you. The second thing is:

2Ti 2:13 - If we are faithless,
He remains faithful;
He cannot deny Himself.

And don't let your mother get you down. We go through phases of loving our parents to barely tolerating them to outgrowing them. I'm (thankfully) at the last stage. My mother is now more like a naive little sister to me.

 

[cloudyday2]

And don't let your mother get you down. We go through phases of loving our parents to barely tolerating them to outgrowing them. I'm (thankfully) at the last stage. My mother is now more like a naive little sister to me.

Thanks. My mother is 77, and we are pretty close (although she can get on my nerves sometimes too). I try to spend time with her every evening, because I know that none of us lives forever. I imagine someday that she might be near death and bring-up all sorts of religious issues. Then I will be nodding my head, making false promises, etc. on Christian topics while she expires. I don't like that prospect. Her Christian beliefs are helpful psychologically, so I don't want to disrupt them. The dishonesty is unpleasant though.

That is why I keep wondering if there is a way for me to honestly believe in Christianity so that religion gathers rather than scatters.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

Thanks. My mother is 77, and we are pretty close (although she can get on my nerves sometimes too). I try to spend time with her every evening, because I know that none of us lives forever. I imagine someday that she might be near death and bring-up all sorts of religious issues. Then I will be nodding my head, making false promises, etc. on Christian topics while she expires. I don't like that prospect. Her Christian beliefs are helpful psychologically, so I don't want to disrupt them. The dishonesty is unpleasant though.

That is why I keep wondering if there is a way for me to honestly believe in Christianity so that religion gathers rather than scatters.

You might find Richard Rohr Universal Christ or Alternative Orthodoxy to your liking and help you reconcile your personal beliefs with a view of Christianity.

 

[HTacianas]

Thanks. My mother is 77, and we are pretty close (although she can get on my nerves sometimes too). I try to spend time with her every evening, because I know that none of us lives forever. I imagine someday that she might be near death and bring-up all sorts of religious issues. Then I will be nodding my head, making false promises, etc. on Christian topics while she expires. I don't like that prospect. Her Christian beliefs are helpful psychologically, so I don't want to disrupt them. The dishonesty is unpleasant though.

That is why I keep wondering if there is a way for me to honestly believe in Christianity so that religion gathers rather than scatters.

I think you honestly believe in Christianity now, you just have a few questions. I have questions also. Like "if Jesus as the eternal Word is of the same substance as the Father, what is that substance"? Or "since all of humankind has in its collective psyche the need to irrevocably destroy something to appease God, but we as Christians need only look to the crucifixion to appease God, and when we look to the crucifixion and it satisfies that need, by satisfying our psyche is that what is meant by cleansing our conscience"?

I have lots of questions.

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

On the other hand, I do think there might be a mystical reality that is either intentionally or coincidentally reflected in Christian/Jewish theology and fictional narratives. I have some curiosity and an open-minded attitude towards paranormal, UFOs, and a higher power.

By "mystical",do you mean supernatural? It is good to know that you are open-minded toward a higher power. But, are you open enough to engage the higher power in prayer? You don't have to attend any church service to do that. Just ask if Jesus is who the Bible says He is, and if He is,could He reveal Himself in a "mystical" way to you.