My Views

[FirstStrikeForce]

My view would be basically considered pre-wrath but there are differences between my views and Marvin Rosenthals. Rather than keep answering questions little by little about what I think, here's the sum-up from my website (this is a collaberative effort between myself and my father, who wrote this):

HOGGATT’S CHRONOLOGY
<snip so reply can be posted, past length limit>

Although this document is copyrighted, permission is granted to reproduce and distribute it for non-profit uses.

This is an interesting viewpoint, I have actually not heard or read of it before.

It would explain some problems with the post-Chapter 12 parts.

I know the seven seals are in chronological order, as are the post-Chapter 12 parts. That is self-evident in the text. How long this all will be I do not profess to know.

Here is my understanding so far, having only heard this and starting to consider it, which maybe you can explain, before I start to dwelve into this idea:

We see in Chapter nine a star fall from Heaven.

We see that star opening the Abyss.

We see "11They had as king over them the angel of the Abyss, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon, and in Greek, Apollyon."

Which is clearly the Anti-Christ.

Yet, if there is any doubt about the beast which comes up from the Abyss coming up from the Abyss, we see, in Revelation 11:

7Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them.

As he seems to be there in the flesh to kill the two witnesses.

But, it could be that he is not entirely in the flesh yet, still having a place in Heaven, and this verse simply refers to:

Revelation 20

1And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. 2He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.
...

" 7When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—to gather them for battle. "


There we actually see the Devil coming up out of the Abyss. Previously, it just stated "they have a king over them".

Chapter 12, we know starts as a prologue, for it speaks of the Lord Jesus being born.

We see in Chapter 11 the authority of the nations being turned over to God.

Right now it is not legal to go against one's government, except in the most extreme cases.

However, if all of the nations (but Israel) lost their authority, then this would make sense why these verses state:

Revelation 18
"Come out of her, my people,
so that you will not share in her sins,
so that you will not receive any of her plagues;
5for her sins are piled up to heaven,
and God has remembered her crimes.
6Give back to her as she has given;
pay her back double for what she has done.
Mix her a double portion from her own cup.
7Give her as much torture and grief
as the glory and luxury she gave herself. "


Also, at the end of Chapter 11, it does seem that this verse:

"The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ,
and he will reign for ever and ever."

Ties into this verse:

10Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say:
"Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God,
and the authority of his Christ.
For the accuser of our brothers,
who accuses them before our God day and night,
has been hurled down.
11They overcame him
by the blood of the Lamb
and by the word of their testimony;
they did not love their lives so much
as to shrink from death. "

After all, while this seems to speak of all who have been killed for the testimony of Christ, it also seems to speak of the testimony of the two witnesses who were just explained as being killed for Christ.

Revelation 11:
7Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them.

As for the chronology, we know the two witnesses are the second woe in Chapter 11, and the "third woe is yet to come"... and we also know Chapter Ten and Eleven are 'between the sounding of the Sixth and Seventh Trumpets'.

So there is some chronology there forwards, but there is also a chronology and some other potential points of trouble: such as

Then, there is the whole "beast, dragon, and false prophet" bit:

13Then I saw three evil[a] spirits that looked like frogs; they came out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

One would think there would be some kind of central figure spoken of in all of these verses, but it seems that one of these individuals may be dead already?

Or, it could be some kind of unholy trinity?

I am not sure.

"13Then I saw three evil[a] spirits that looked like frogs; they came out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet. "

 

[ForeverEndeavor]

It seems there will always be qustions up until the end but I think this theory best answers all the concerns regarding the pre trib theory and the post trib theory and, I beleive is the simplest interpretation as far as not reading too much into the scriptures. I admit there are some details that are up for debate but I am happy to look at biblical arguments.

 

[FirstStrikeForce]

It seems there will always be qustions up until the end but I think this theory best answers all the concerns regarding the pre trib theory and the post trib theory and, I beleive is the simplest interpretation as far as not reading too much into the scriptures. I admit there are some details that are up for debate but I am happy to look at biblical arguments.

Isn't it more simple that it would just be entirely a linear progression, however?

 

[ForeverEndeavor]

Isn't it more simple that it would just be entirely a linear progression, however?

Yes but we already know that there isn't a continuous timeline and don't really have a reason to beleive that the angels and bowls happen after the seals and trumpets except that their listed in that order. I would like to point out that I don't beleive there is sufficient evidence to PROVE that theory, so, it is still just a theory.

 

[FirstStrikeForce]

Yes but we already know that there isn't a continuous timeline and don't really have a reason to beleive that the angels and bowls happen after the seals and trumpets except that their listed in that order. I would like to point out that I don't beleive there is sufficient evidence to PROVE that theory, so, it is still just a theory.

Thanks. Yes, as long as you have noted the "second woe" has happened at Chapter Eleven and the "third woe" is yet to come -- as well as the Seventh Trumpet... I think there is some possible bearing there, though I am more inclined to consider the whole last part as being the third woe.

However, there are many other unanswered questions about Revelation, and I do think this is something which is worthy of being at least considered.

Thanks for pointing that out.

 

[ross3421]

oooooooooooooo

 

[FirstStrikeForce]

oooooooooooooo

I take it you disagree or something. Who knows.

That is not a godly response.

 

[ForeverEndeavor]

oooooooooooooo

aaaaaaaaaaaahhhhh! lol

 

[ross3421]

The reason for the "ooooooo" is that I had to delete my previous position on the timeline of the judgements due to not being able for all events to line up. I as it appears most "grouped" the seals together. However after further study everything seems to line up when we view God's wrath being after the 6th seal being opened and prior to the 7th seal which is his return.


Seal 1,2,3,4,5,6
Angel 1,2,3,4,5,6

7 Trumpts / 7 Vials

Seal 7
Angel 7


Another view of the seals.....

Seal 1,2,3,4 encompasses the kingdom of Beast of the sea (4 beasts, 10 horns, 7 heads).
Seal 5 encompasses the reign of the beast of the earth (the eight head, lttle horn, little season 3.5 yrs).
Seal 6 encompasses God's wrath (destroys 1/3 which represents the kindom of the Beast ch. 12)
Seal 7 encompasses Christ's return.


Please respond if there are discrepancies in which I may have overlooked. Please provide scripture not beliefs


In Christ, Mark.