My take on Trinity

[Divide]

Isaiah 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Do these titles refer to the same person?

The term person is loaded with anthropomorphism. I prefer to stick to the wording of the Scripture and use the term witness instead.

See

• The Father is a witness
• The Holy Spirit is a witness
• Jesus is God

The word "Trinity" is not written in the Bible. I'd avoid using the term. I try to stick to the words and wording of the Bible as much as possible. The term was first used by Tertullian around 200 AD. I am not against the concept of the Trinity. I am not even against the word "Trinity". My point is that I prefer not to use the term Trinity in argumentation.

On the other hand, Berean Literal Bible, Acts 17:29 Therefore, being offspring of God, we ought not to consider the Divine Being [Θεῖον, Theion, G2304] to be like to gold or to silver or to stone, a graven thing of man's craft and imagination.

KJB translated Θεῖον as "Godhead"; NKJB used "Divine Nature".

The term Divine Being (G2304) is in the Bible. I would use that instead of "Trinity".

But when Jesus was getting reaady to ascend to the Father he was talking to some disciples and told them, I got to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.

So I think God the Father is God first and foremost.

But if Jesus was one with the Father in Spirit then Jesus is God too. Our God.

I had a weird thought. In Heaven, when Jesus stands and is talking to someone, giving them instructions or whatever...when He is done talking and the Angel or Saint or whoever turns to leave to go carry out the Lords instructions, does he just, turn and go? Or would that be bad etiquete to the Creator of the universe?!

Would he, take two steps backward first before turning his back to the Lord to go his way? I think so!

 

[AV1611VET]

How do you decide what translation is the word of God?

Because the Author of the word of God lives in me and points me in the right direction.

And before you say it, not everyone is as sensitive about the word of God as I am; but they have their own sensitivities in other areas that I don't.

 

[tonychanyt]

Because the Author of the word of God lives in me and points me in the right direction.

Is Apostle Paul living in you?

 

[AV1611VET]

Is Apostle Paul living in you?

And with that, we're done.

 

[Diamond72]

Is Apostle Paul living in you?

I had a conversation with Paul once. He wanted to know how people today are receiving what he wrote almost 2,000 years ago. 2Peter3:16 tells us: "Some things in his letters are hard to understand." Paul likes to quote David and that is fine but David was under the law. Romans 6:14 We are not under the law but Grace.

 

[ViaCrucis]

I was born in Hong Kong. My father was a cultural Buddhist. There was a local Catholic church. I was never interested in either.


I became a Christian when I started my Master's program. Attended a Baptist church for a few years every Sunday, morning and evening. I was not baptized in that church.


I was all over the place. See TonyChanYT.CV - employmenthistory.

After I became a Christian, for the first few years, I attended a Baptist church. Next few years, I attended a Wesleyan and a Pentecostal, and a non-denominational church in Canada.

I spend the next 10 years in Japan, attending local Japanese churches. They were not connected to any Western denominations.

Next several years, I worked in Iceland. Attended the local Lutheran church.

Next 4 years, in Saudi Arabia. No churches. I attended mosques.

Next two years, in the Philipines. I decided to visit a different church in Manila every Sunday.

Finally back to Canada, Toronto.

So let's ask this: Why do you believe that baptism is a symbolic act of obedience to God? The Bible doesn't say any of that about baptism, but that is what you believe.

That's clearly an influence from your experiences in Baptist and non-denominational churches, and I bet also from your Wesleyan and Pentecostal church experiences.

You didn't get that idea from reading the Bible say, "Baptism is a symbolic act of obedience to God", because the Bible doesn't say that. You got that idea from your experiences in churches which taught this, and that colored how you read and interpret the Bible.

I'm using baptism as just an example.

That's an example of how you have been influenced by denominational views from within a certain tradition or traditions.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[tonychanyt]

So let's ask this: Why do you believe that baptism is a symbolic act of obedience to God?

Where I did say that? Can you quote me?

 

[ViaCrucis]

Where I did say that? Can you quote me?

In the opening post of the thread you linked to: What is the purpose of believer baptism?

1. It is an act of obedience to fulfill all righteousness as Jesus himself was baptized in Matthew 3:15.
2. It is an act of obedience to fulfill the great commission (Matthew 28:19).
3. It is a sign of death and resurrection (Colossians 2:11-12).

Basically, it symbolizes cleansing and new life in Jesus. This outward ritual is meaningless if not accompanied by inward repentance.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[tonychanyt]

In the opening post of the thread you linked to: What is the purpose of believer baptism?



-CryptoLutheran

Good point. I modified the OP.

Take another look and follow up there. Thanks

 

[Diamond72]

I was born in Hong Kong.

My wife worked as a domestic helper for 9 years in Hong Kong. It is interesting how many women in Hong Kong will pay half their salary for someone to cook and clean for them. Although the main reason they hired my wife was to teach the kids English.

 

[tonychanyt]

My wife worked as a domestic helper for 9 years in Hong Kong. It is interesting how many women in Hong Kong will pay half their salary for someone to cook and clean for them.

Ya. It does not happen in China, Taiwan, Japan, Canada, or the US. I often wonder why Hong Kong professional class of people would so readily hire domestic helpers. Any ideas?

 

[Diamond72]

I often wonder why Hong Kong professional class of people would so readily hire domestic helpers. Any ideas?

I think they like to hire Filipina's because they teach the children English. The women from the Philippines take over the city on Sunday when they have their day off. People have to speak two or three languages to get a good paying job. My wife was prohibited from speaking Cantonese, she was only allowed to speak English.

Also, they do not use time-saving appliances that Americans use. They often wash cloths by hand and put it up to dry or use a more primitive washing machine. Not a lot of prepared food. The fish is still alive and they want their food very fresh. That is more work than the processed food Americans eat.

We joke in America that the fish is still moving when they put it in the pan and they eat it when it quits moving.

 

[Diamond72]

Because the Author of the word of God lives in me and points me in the right direction.

I go back to the Hebrew and it amazes me how little of the Hebrew gets translated.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Good point. I modified the OP.

Take another look and follow up there. Thanks

I'm still not sure how the changes you made affects much. It is still treating baptism as a good work done for God, and that the significance of baptism lay within one's own effort.

While you've removed some of the language that indicates baptism is merely symbolic. Substantially you are still treating baptism as a human work of righteous obedience to God.

You are still operating from the influences you have experienced. I have no doubt that you are engaging in your own innovating on interpretation; but it is still innovation built atop those influences.

I would also add that innovation isn't a good thing.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Diamond72]

does he just, turn and go?

I think He appears and disappears. The disciples were in a boat and He was walking on the water. Once He showed up and they did not know how because the door was locked. “Jesus opens doors that no man can shut, and He shuts doors that no man can open.” Jesus is your doorkeeper.

The Letter Dalet. The fourth letter of the Hebrew alphabet is called "Dalet" (pronounced "dah-let") and has the sound of "d" as in "door." dalet and means "door." The word dalet is a derivative of the parent root dal also meaning "door.

 

[AV1611VET]

I go back to the Hebrew and it amazes me how little of the Hebrew gets translated.

That's fine with me.

 

[Divide]

I think He appears and disappears. The disciples were in a boat and He was walking on the water. Once He showed up and they did not know how because the door was locked. “Jesus opens doors that no man can shut, and He shuts doors that no man can open.” Jesus is your doorkeeper.

The Letter Dalet. The fourth letter of the Hebrew alphabet is called "Dalet" (pronounced "dah-let") and has the sound of "d" as in "door." dalet and means "door." The word dalet is a derivative of the parent root dal also meaning "door.

That's Jesus though. Ok suppose He is sitting on His throne and has a Kingdom person in front of Him receiving His instructions. They finish talking so does the subject just turn and leave or take two steps back first, bow and leave?

Yes Jesus walks through walls in His spiritual body. That didn't start when Jesus came into the Discples locked room. I bet Jesus did not move the stone of the tomb aside, He just left.

 

[Hermeneutico]

Isaiah 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Do these titles refer to the same person?

The term person is loaded with anthropomorphism. I prefer to stick to the wording of the Scripture and use the term witness instead.

See

• The Father is a witness
• The Holy Spirit is a witness
• Jesus is God

The word "Trinity" is not written in the Bible. I'd avoid using the term. I try to stick to the words and wording of the Bible as much as possible. The term was first used by Tertullian around 200 AD. I am not against the concept of the Trinity. I am not even against the word "Trinity". My point is that I prefer not to use the term Trinity in argumentation.

On the other hand, Berean Literal Bible, Acts 17:29 Therefore, being offspring of God, we ought not to consider the Divine Being [Θεῖον, Theion, G2304] to be like to gold or to silver or to stone, a graven thing of man's craft and imagination.

KJB translated Θεῖον as "Godhead"; NKJB used "Divine Nature".

The term Divine Being (G2304) is in the Bible. I would use that instead of "Trinity".

To be consistent, technically, any word we use in English does not appear in Scripture since the authors of Scripture wrote in Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek. English words are translations, and a translated word is a short summary approximating the original word. Put another way, all translated words are insertions of non-biblical words to describe with varying levels of success what a Hebrew, Aramaic, or Greek word means.

Here’s an example to illustrate the point. In Greek, the word pistis means something like faith, allegiance, trust, faithfulness, etc. English translations often choose one of these options to communicate what the word means—often, the word faith. Yet, in English, faith refers to one’s internal belief about the existence of something. That’s certainly part of what pistis means, but pistis can also communicate allegiance to a king or faithfulness regarding one’s commitment to another.

The verb form of pistis is pisteuw, which English translates as “I believe.” Yet pisteuw can mean “I think” or “I consider.” It can also mean “I entrust” something to someone (See BDAG, 816–818). In other words, the English summary of the word makes sense in English and approximates what pisteuw means.

Therefore, if one holds the conviction that words outside of Scripture should not be used, one should only refer to Greek, Hebrew, or Aramaic. Some of us can do that... It is a non-argument for one who does not rely on the original languages of Scripture to context the use of non-Scripture words in conversation.

...my two cents.

Blessings

 

[tonychanyt]

To be consistent, technically, any word we use in English does not appear in Scripture since the authors of Scripture wrote in Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek.

Right.

English words are translations, and a translated word is a short summary approximating the original word. Put another way, all translated words are insertions of non-biblical words to describe with varying levels of success what a Hebrew, Aramaic, or Greek word means.

That's why you don't see the English word Trinity being used in any respectable Bible versions. That supports my point

 

[Hermeneutico]

Right.


That's why you don't see the English word Trinity being used in any respectable Bible versions. That supports my point

It does not support your point entirely. Every time you use English words in your posts, you practice what you condemn. I think it is an absurd viewpoint that doesn't matter in the bigger picture, for if one uses any English word, one must define it from the original language, for the one reading the word may not understand what Scripture originally teaches anyway.... hence, all words in Scripture written in the English language, are in effect, working in the same way as using words outside of the English translations to define specific points. Your argumentation is moot - unless everyone reading these posts can read the original languages anyway. But then again, half of the arguments here are over what the English word translated really means anyway... lol