My take on Trinity

[tonychanyt]

Just say Trinity.

That sounds nice in theory, the problem is that heretics can use those same words and mean radically different things.

Sure. Then I use my A Denomination-Free, Disciplined, Logical, and Probabilistic Approach to Biblical Hermeneutics to check their interpretation.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Sure. Then I use my A Denomination-Free, Disciplined, Logical, and Probabilistic Approach to Biblical Hermeneutics to check their interpretation.

There's no such thing as a "denomination free" anything when it comes to Christianity.

Every Christian is a Christian within a particular theological tradition. And that means each of us approaches Scripture, reads Scripture, and also applies Scripture through the biases of our tradition.

To avoid outright heresy we ought to adhere closely to the historic and foundational tenets of our faith. That means embracing, rather than shying away from, foundational Christian language, like talking about the Trinity.

That's why we should learn, understand, be taught, and confess the historic confession and creeds of the Church. Especially the Nicene Creed.

Say, with boldness, that you believe in one God, Holy Trinity; that you worship the one God in Trinity and Trinity in Unity, neither confusing the Persons nor dividing the Essence. If, for some reason, you don't understand what that means, then learn. Learn what it means when we say "Trinity", learn what it means to speak of the Three Persons with neither confusion nor separation.

Understanding good theology can only be beneficial, because it establishes a solid foundation of being able to talk about your faith with others, especially those outside of the faith. So when a non-believer or a heretic is confused about, e.g., our faith in the Holy Trinity we can "give answer" as St. Peter says.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[tonychanyt]

There's no such thing as a "denomination free" anything when it comes to Christianity.

Every Christian is a Christian within a particular theological tradition.

So what particular theological tradition do I belong to according to my approach to hermeneutics?

 

[ViaCrucis]

So what particular theological tradition do I belong to according to my approach to hermeneutics?

I don't know enough about what you believe or your background to answer that.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[tonychanyt]

I don't know enough about what you believe or your background to answer that.

-CryptoLutheran

Then how do you know that I must have a particular theological tradition?

 

[ViaCrucis]

Then how do you know that I must have a particular theological tradition?

Because you do. Every Christian does.

How about I ask you several questions and see if I can't suss out an answer based on your answers?

1) How many books are in the Bible?

2) What is baptism?

3) How is a person made right with God?

4) Can a real Christian fall away?

5) What is the role of good works in the life of a Christian?

6) What is the best form of church governance?

7) What is the Millennium?

I have a feeling that how you answer just these seven questions will provide plenty of information to get a sense of what tradition and what influences are at play in your theology.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Lukaris]

It seems that the often maligned scripture of 1 John 5:7 seems to be just what it says.

Johannine Comma and Cyprian of Carthage - Textus Receptus

textus-receptus.com

So Deuteronomy 6:4 and 1 John 5:7 match. The Trinity is our God.

 

[tonychanyt]

Because you do. Every Christian does.

How about I ask you several questions and see if I can't suss out an answer based on your answers?

1) How many books are in the Bible?

66

2) What is baptism?

See What is the purpose of believer baptism?

3) How is a person made right with God?

See JUSTIFICATION by works, grace, or faith?

4) Can a real Christian fall away?

See Once saved, always saved?

5) What is the role of good works in the life of a Christian?

See Logical Equivalence of Faith and Works

6) What is the best form of church governance?

I don't know.

7) What is the Millennium?

I don't know.

I have a feeling that how you answer just these seven questions will provide plenty of information to get a sense of what tradition and what influences are at play in your theology.

-CryptoLutheran

Good questions

 

[ViaCrucis]

66

Well that clearly makes you a kind of Protestant.

See What is the purpose of believer baptism?

Well that clearly makes you a Credobaptist and a Sacramentarian.

See JUSTIFICATION by works, grace, or faith?

Interesting, this leads me to want to ask some follow up questions, which I will at the end of this post.

See Once saved, always saved?

Given what you present there, it would seem that you don't believe that a real Christian can fall away.

See Logical Equivalence of Faith and Works

Same as my comment in response to your answer on justification.

I don't know.


I don't know.

Good questions

Here are some follow up questions:

1) What kind of church do you currently attend?

2) Do you and your current church believe the same things?

3) What was your religious and spiritual upbringing?

4) What kind(s) of churches have you attended or associated with in the past?

5) In what context did you first hear about Jesus Christ?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[tonychanyt]

Here are some follow up questions:

1) What kind of church do you currently attend?

Just before the pandemic, I set myself a program to visit all churches in Toronto. I am still doing that

2) Do you and your current church believe the same things?

So far, I cannot identify myself with any of the churches that I have visited.

3) What was your religious and spiritual upbringing?

See How did I come to Jesus: My Testimony

4) What kind(s) of churches have you attended or associated with in the past?

All kinds, including Ukrainian Orthodox and Messianic.

5) In what context did you first hear about Jesus Christ?

-CryptoLutheran

At university, on campus and from my housemate.

Again, good questions

 

[ViaCrucis]

Just before the pandemic, I set myself a program to visit all churches in Toronto. I am still doing that


So far, I cannot identify myself with any of the churches that I have visited.


See How did I come to Jesus: My Testimony

So were you raised non-religious?

All kinds, including Ukrainian Orthodox and Messianic.


At university, on campus and from my housemate.

Again, good questions

Between your time at university and the pandemic, have you ever attended a church of any kind regularly?

It sounds like there have been about 40 years between your initial conversion to Christianity, through exposure to a Baptist church and now.

Can you share about those forty years?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[tonychanyt]

So were you raised non-religious?

I was born in Hong Kong. My father was a cultural Buddhist. There was a local Catholic church. I was never interested in either.

Between your time at university and the pandemic, have you ever attended a church of any kind regularly?

I became a Christian when I started my Master's program. Attended a Baptist church for a few years every Sunday, morning and evening. I was not baptized in that church.

It sounds like there have been about 40 years between your initial conversion to Christianity, through exposure to a Baptist church and now.

Can you share about those forty years?

I was all over the place. See TonyChanYT.CV - employmenthistory.

After I became a Christian, for the first few years, I attended a Baptist church. Next few years, I attended a Wesleyan and a Pentecostal, and a non-denominational church in Canada.

I spend the next 10 years in Japan, attending local Japanese churches. They were not connected to any Western denominations.

Next several years, I worked in Iceland. Attended the local Lutheran church.

Next 4 years, in Saudi Arabia. No churches. I attended mosques.

Next two years, in the Philipines. I decided to visit a different church in Manila every Sunday.

Finally back to Canada, Toronto.

 

[AV1611VET]

Isaiah 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Do these titles refer to the same person?

Yes.

They refer to Jesus Christ.

And for the record, that's not what Isaiah 9:6 says.

THIS is what Isaiah 9:6 says:

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

The term person is loaded with anthropomorphism. I prefer to stick to the wording of the Scripture and use the term witness instead.

Jesus is considered the Second Person of the Trinity.

But for the record, "Trinity" is a misleading term.

"Triunity" is more descriptive.

The Bible uses neither though.

It uses the word "godhead".

 

[tonychanyt]

And for the record, that's not what Isaiah 9:6 says.

THIS is what Isaiah 9:6 says:

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Isaiah 9:6
New International Version
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

 

[AV1611VET]

Isaiah 9:6
New International Version
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

You said that already.

 

[tonychanyt]

You said that already.

What did you mean by "And for the record, that's not what Isaiah 9:6 says"?

 

[AV1611VET]

What did you mean by "And for the record, that's not what Isaiah 9:6 says"?

The NIV version is not what Isaiah wrote.

For example, do you see a difference between "Wonderful Counsellor" and "Wonderful, Counsellor"?

The first one (Wonderful Counsellor) is one term.

The second one (Wonderful, Counsellor) is two.

Separated by a comma.

Do you see the "THEs" taken off of Jesus' titles in the NIV?

The NIV is denying Jesus' deity, as well as making wiggle room for other gods to occupy the same title.

There's a big difference between referring to Jesus as "Mighty God" and "The mighty God".

Do you know the difference between "Everlasting Father" and "The everlasting Father"?

 

[tonychanyt]

The NIV version is not what Isaiah wrote.

For example, do you see a difference between "Wonderful Counsellor" and "Wonderful, Counsellor"?

How do you know what Isaiah wrote?

 

[AV1611VET]

How do you know what Isaiah wrote?

Because what Isaiah wrote is the word of God, and God cannot lie.

 

[tonychanyt]

Because what Isaiah wrote is the word of God, and God cannot lie.

How do you decide which translation is the word of God?