My take on the predestination scriptures

[FutureAndAHope]

Now we know there is a preplanning with God. We each have a book written with our purpose in it. (Jeremiah 1:5, Acts 17:26-27, Psa 139:16-18)

But we see that this written book has multiple pathways depending upon our actions. (2Sa 12:7-12, Jer 15:19)

We also see that God does not have perfect knowledge of how man will act (Gen 6:6-7).

So the discussion will now focus on the scriptures used by Calvinism (a doctrine which I disagree with), to say that man is assigned as saved, or unsaved status before the earth was created. Let’s look at the first one.

Romans 8:29-30 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called*; whom He called*, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

*call, summon, invite

Foreknew, there is no denying that God foreknows each of us. That there is a degree of planning with God. But where this plan is laid down is not known, it could be one generation before we were born, or it could be at creation or both.

I argue that God calls all men, to the truth, all men to repent (Acts 17:30). I believe that all men are predestined to life, all men are called, but only those who respond are saved, some choose to blind themselves (John 15:24, Mat 23:37).

We see from the Greek definition of the word call, that it means to “call out to”, summon, or invite. The meaning to invite, or summon, fits with the idea of God calling out to men in Christ. We might all be predestined, but only those who accept the invitation will receive life.



Eph 1:4-11 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved. In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,



Ephesians (above) also talks about this choice. Calvinistic thought will say that is a definite choice, that God selects some and not others. But the choice here could be referring to the method God will use to save men, faith. God still “chose us”, because of our faith, we were chosen by our response to Christ.

We know that Jesus was slain before the foundation of the world (1Pe 1:20). This does not mean his body was slain before creation, but rather the method was selected before creation. In the same way, the choice of who would be saved was chosen before creation began, we were predestined. We were called to “be holy and without blame before Him in love”.

 

[Mark Quayle]

But we see that this written book has multiple pathways depending upon our actions. (2Sa 12:7-12, Jer 15:19)

We also see that God does not have perfect knowledge of how man will act (Gen 6:6-7).

Can you show how these references you give demonstrate the two assertions you make here?

I argue that God calls all men, to the truth, all men to repent (Acts 17:30). I believe that all men are predestined to life, all men are called, but only those who respond are saved, some choose to blind themselves (John 15:24, Mat 23:37).

No need to argue that "God calls all men, to the truth, all men to repent". Calvinists agree. Can you show how it is that some "respond [and] are saved, [but] some choose to blind themselves", without claiming that some are just better people than the others? Be careful, please, not to just kick the logical can down the road; if you say they choose better because they were pursuing truth, or whatever other thing led to that choice, then I ask the same question about THAT.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Now we know there is a preplanning with God. We each have a book written with our purpose in it. (Jeremiah 1:5, Acts 17:26-27, Psa 139:16-18)

But we see that this written book has multiple pathways depending upon our actions. (2Sa 12:7-12, Jer 15:19)

We also see that God does not have perfect knowledge of how man will act (Gen 6:6-7).

So the discussion will now focus on the scriptures used by Calvinism (a doctrine which I disagree with), to say that man is assigned as saved, or unsaved status before the earth was created. Let’s look at the first one.

Romans 8:29-30 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called*; whom He called*, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

*call, summon, invite

Foreknew, there is no denying that God foreknows each of us. That there is a degree of planning with God. But where this plan is laid down is not known, it could be one generation before we were born, or it could be at creation or both.

I argue that God calls all men, to the truth, all men to repent (Acts 17:30). I believe that all men are predestined to life, all men are called, but only those who respond are saved, some choose to blind themselves (John 15:24, Mat 23:37).

We see from the Greek definition of the word call, that it means to “call out to”, summon, or invite. The meaning to invite, or summon, fits with the idea of God calling out to men in Christ. We might all be predestined, but only those who accept the invitation will receive life.



Eph 1:4-11 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved. In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,



Ephesians (above) also talks about this choice. Calvinistic thought will say that is a definite choice, that God selects some and not others. But the choice here could be referring to the method God will use to save men, faith. God still “chose us”, because of our faith, we were chosen by our response to Christ.

We know that Jesus was slain before the foundation of the world (1Pe 1:20). This does not mean his body was slain before creation, but rather the method was selected before creation. In the same way, the choice of who would be saved was chosen before creation began, we were predestined. We were called to “be holy and without blame before Him in love”.

Interesting. I do disagree though that God does not have perfect knowledge aka foreknowledge. Blessings.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Can you show how these references you give demonstrate the two assertions you make here?

David, when speaking of the purpose God had for him speaks of the positive thoughts being as numerous as the sand. This shows us that God at least plans out "positive" purposes for us before we were born. But this plan can and does alter based on our actions.

2Sa 12:7-11 Then Nathan said to David, "You are the man! Thus says the LORD God of Israel: 'I anointed you king over Israel, and I delivered you from the hand of Saul. I gave you your master's house and your master's wives into your keeping, and gave you the house of Israel and Judah. And if that had been too little, I also would have given you much more! Why have you despised the commandment of the LORD, to do evil in His sight? You have killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword; you have taken his wife to be your wife, and have killed him with the sword of the people of Ammon. Now therefore, the sword shall never depart from your house, because you have despised Me, and have taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be your wife.' Thus says the LORD: 'Behold, I will raise up adversity against you from your own house; and I will take your wives before your eyes and give them to your neighbor, and he shall lie with your wives in the sight of this sun.

We see two things in the above scripture, God "would have given David much more" had he not sinned. Because David did sin God raised up adversity against him.

We also see with Jerimiah, that God said he could be his prophet "if", he turned back to the LORD in his heart, and spoke God's message. Our actions work together with God's call.

Jer 15:19 Then the LORD told me: Stop talking like a fool! If you turn back to me and speak my message, I will let you be my prophet once again. I hope the people of Judah will accept what you say. But you can ignore their threats,

Jer 15:19 Therefore thus saith Jehovah, If thou return, then will I bring thee again, that thou mayest stand before me; and if thou take forth the precious from the vile, thou shalt be as my mouth: they shall return unto thee, but thou shalt not return unto them.

We see so often ministries today that start out well, have a huge following, bring many to Christ, then fall into some sin, and leave in obscurity. There is no doubt these ministers have been used, even called by God, but our response to sin determines if we receive a reward.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

No need to argue that "God calls all men, to the truth, all men to repent". Calvinists agree. Can you show how it is that some "respond [and] are saved, [but] some choose to blind themselves", without claiming that some are just better people than the others? Be careful, please, not to just kick the logical can down the road; if you say they choose better because they were pursuing truth, or whatever other thing led to that choice, then I ask the same question about THAT.

John 14:21-24 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself unto him. Judas (not Iscariot) saith unto him, Lord, what is come to pass that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world? Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my word: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. He that loveth me not keepeth not my words: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's who sent me.

The key word in the above scriptures in "manifest", one who is blind had "no manifestation". We also see from Jesus's words that our actions lead to this manifestation of the Holy Spirit, or blinding in the negative.

We see also that God gave light to all men coming into the world.

Joh 1:9 There was the true light, even the light which lighteth every man, coming into the world.

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto myself.

1Ti 2:4 who would have all men to be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth.

1Ti 4:10 For to this end we labor and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of them that believe.

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God hath appeared, bringing salvation to all men,

But man does one of two things with the light.

Joh 3:16-21 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God sent not the Son into the world to judge the world; but that the world should be saved through him. He that believeth on him is not judged: he that believeth not hath been judged already, because he hath not believed on the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the judgment, that the light is come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their works were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, and cometh not to the light, lest his works should be reproved. But he that doeth the truth cometh to the light, that his works may be made manifest, that they have been wrought in God.

In John, we see two distinct groups, those who hate the light, and those who "doeth" the truth. We are encouraged:

John 12:36 While ye have the light, believe on the light, that ye may become sons of light. These things spake Jesus, and he departed and hid himself from them.

As for blindness, we see that God send blindness to those who desire sin more than God's message. He allows forms of error.

2Th 2:9-12 even he, whose coming is according to the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, and with all deceit of unrighteousness for them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God sendeth them a working of error, that they should believe a lie: that they all might be judged who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

We see people know God, can come to the light (John 3:21, 14:21-24), but those who reject God become blind.

Rom 1:21 because that, knowing God, they glorified him not as God, neither gave thanks; but became vain in their reasonings, and their senseless heart was darkened.

The Early Church Fathers speak of this as self-blinding.

Iranaeus - Against Heresies - Book 4 Ch 39-End

4. But God, foreknowing all things, prepared fit habitations for both, kindly conferring that light which they desire on those who seek after the light of incorruption, and resort to it; but for the despisers and mockers who avoid and turn themselves away from this light, and who do, as it were, blind themselves, He has prepared darkness suitable to persons who oppose the light, and He has inflicted an appropriate punishment upon those who try to avoid being subject to Him. Submission to God is eternal rest, so that they who shun the light have a place worthy of their flight; and those who fly from eternal rest, have a habitation in accordance with their fleeing. Now, since all good things are with God, they who by their own determination fly from God, do defraud themselves of all good things; and having been [thus] defrauded of all good things with respect to God, they shall consequently fall under the just judgment of God.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Interesting. I do disagree though that God does not have perfect knowledge aka foreknowledge. Blessings.

If we look closely at the scripture we will see God does not have perfect knowledge of man's actions. He is not sitting on some crystal throne dictating a plan out to man.

Gen 18:20-21 And Jehovah said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous; I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.

If we have a look at the above scripture (Jehovah) God actually came down, to see if what he had heard in heaven was actually true. And again in the verse I quoted before, God did not have knowledge of how man would turn out, He was sorry for creating man.

Gen 6:5-8 And Jehovah saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented Jehovah that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. And Jehovah said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the ground; both man, and beast, and creeping things, and birds of the heavens; for it repenteth me that I have made them. But Noah found favor in the eyes of Jehovah.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

If we look closely at the scripture we will see God does not have perfect knowledge of man's actions. He is not sitting on some crystal throne dictating a plan out to man.

Gen 18:20-21 And Jehovah said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous; I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.

If we have a look at the above scripture (Jehovah) God actually came down, to see if what he had heard in heaven was actually true. And again in the verse I quoted before, God did not have knowledge of how man would turn out, He was sorry for creating man.

Gen 6:5-8 And Jehovah saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented Jehovah that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. And Jehovah said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the ground; both man, and beast, and creeping things, and birds of the heavens; for it repenteth me that I have made them. But Noah found favor in the eyes of Jehovah.

I see dictating a plan out for man different than foreknowledge. I agree He wishes not to take control of our choices however He does have foreknowledge of that choice. My take anyway. Blessings.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

I see dictating a plan out for man different than foreknowledge. I agree He wishes not to take control of our choices however He does have foreknowledge of that choice. My take anyway. Blessings.

What scriptures support the idea of God knowing man's choices? If we have a look closely a Genisis we see:

Gen 18:20-21 And Jehovah said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous; I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.

God said he had come to check out Sodom to see if what he had heard was true, to get a definite answer, that that he would know. If God really had foreknowledge in the way you say, then he would say:

I know all of Sodom's sins, I knew that they would sin, I have come to confirm, what I already knew.

It pays to return to scripture when we hold an idea that is contrary to our doctrine. God definitely, from scripture, does not foreknow, even know every action of man.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

I see dictating a plan out for man different than foreknowledge. I agree He wishes not to take control of our choices however He does have foreknowledge of that choice. My take anyway. Blessings.

In one sense God "may" and I state "may" have knowledge of the choices we can potentially make, for there is a degree of planning with God. But He does not know how good or bad we will become (as we see in Genesis), He may put constraints on us. One of the constraints He put on man was to limit our days to 120 years to prevent man from becoming too evil.

Gen 6:3 And Jehovah said, My Spirit shall not strive with man for ever, for that he also is flesh: yet shall his days be a hundred and twenty years.

This was done after He said He regretted making man. Choices that God makes, effects future generations, although God may plan the generations, choices made by both man and God will determine the flow of God's stories.

 

[disciple Clint]

Now we know there is a preplanning with God. We each have a book written with our purpose in it. (Jeremiah 1:5, Acts 17:26-27, Psa 139:16-18)

But we see that this written book has multiple pathways depending upon our actions. (2Sa 12:7-12, Jer 15:19)

We also see that God does not have perfect knowledge of how man will act (Gen 6:6-7).

So the discussion will now focus on the scriptures used by Calvinism (a doctrine which I disagree with), to say that man is assigned as saved, or unsaved status before the earth was created. Let’s look at the first one.

Romans 8:29-30 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called*; whom He called*, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

*call, summon, invite

Foreknew, there is no denying that God foreknows each of us. That there is a degree of planning with God. But where this plan is laid down is not known, it could be one generation before we were born, or it could be at creation or both.

I argue that God calls all men, to the truth, all men to repent (Acts 17:30). I believe that all men are predestined to life, all men are called, but only those who respond are saved, some choose to blind themselves (John 15:24, Mat 23:37).

We see from the Greek definition of the word call, that it means to “call out to”, summon, or invite. The meaning to invite, or summon, fits with the idea of God calling out to men in Christ. We might all be predestined, but only those who accept the invitation will receive life.



Eph 1:4-11 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved. In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,



Ephesians (above) also talks about this choice. Calvinistic thought will say that is a definite choice, that God selects some and not others. But the choice here could be referring to the method God will use to save men, faith. God still “chose us”, because of our faith, we were chosen by our response to Christ.

We know that Jesus was slain before the foundation of the world (1Pe 1:20). This does not mean his body was slain before creation, but rather the method was selected before creation. In the same way, the choice of who would be saved was chosen before creation began, we were predestined. We were called to “be holy and without blame before Him in love”.

God has perfect knowledge, in His mind it has happened already

 

[Mark Quayle]

David, when speaking of the purpose God had for him speaks of the positive thoughts being as numerous as the sand. This shows us that God at least plans out "positive" purposes for us before we were born. But this plan can and does alter based on our actions.

2Sa 12:7-11 Then Nathan said to David, "You are the man! Thus says the LORD God of Israel: 'I anointed you king over Israel, and I delivered you from the hand of Saul. I gave you your master's house and your master's wives into your keeping, and gave you the house of Israel and Judah. And if that had been too little, I also would have given you much more! Why have you despised the commandment of the LORD, to do evil in His sight? You have killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword; you have taken his wife to be your wife, and have killed him with the sword of the people of Ammon. Now therefore, the sword shall never depart from your house, because you have despised Me, and have taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be your wife.' Thus says the LORD: 'Behold, I will raise up adversity against you from your own house; and I will take your wives before your eyes and give them to your neighbor, and he shall lie with your wives in the sight of this sun.

We see two things in the above scripture, God "would have given David much more" had he not sinned. Because David did sin God raised up adversity against him.

We also see with Jerimiah, that God said he could be his prophet "if", he turned back to the LORD in his heart, and spoke God's message. Our actions work together with God's call.

Jer 15:19 Then the LORD told me: Stop talking like a fool! If you turn back to me and speak my message, I will let you be my prophet once again. I hope the people of Judah will accept what you say. But you can ignore their threats,

Jer 15:19 Therefore thus saith Jehovah, If thou return, then will I bring thee again, that thou mayest stand before me; and if thou take forth the precious from the vile, thou shalt be as my mouth: they shall return unto thee, but thou shalt not return unto them.

We see so often ministries today that start out well, have a huge following, bring many to Christ, then fall into some sin, and leave in obscurity. There is no doubt these ministers have been used, even called by God, but our response to sin determines if we receive a reward.

Of course he would have, but they didn't. How does that defeat predestination? If such passages are all you need to prove your point, I could prove it better than you have! But there is something behind it all: They all, including David, the devil, Adam and Eve, you and I, do precisely as he planned for it to happen. The fact they sinned is emphasized each time it is recorded, because they did choose to sin. If they had not sinned, just as if the lost had chosen God over self, things would have been different. But they didn't. Why? Go back one step behind what you think is spontaneous. It is never quite spontaneous, is it?

Spontaneity is either complete, or it is not actually spontaneous. There is only one first cause. All else follows.

 

[Mark Quayle]

John 14:21-24 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself unto him. Judas (not Iscariot) saith unto him, Lord, what is come to pass that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world? Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my word: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. He that loveth me not keepeth not my words: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's who sent me.

The key word in the above scriptures in "manifest", one who is blind had "no manifestation". We also see from Jesus's words that our actions lead to this manifestation of the Holy Spirit, or blinding in the negative.

We see also that God gave light to all men coming into the world.

Joh 1:9 There was the true light, even the light which lighteth every man, coming into the world.

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto myself.

1Ti 2:4 who would have all men to be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth.

1Ti 4:10 For to this end we labor and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of them that believe.

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God hath appeared, bringing salvation to all men,

But man does one of two things with the light.

Joh 3:16-21 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God sent not the Son into the world to judge the world; but that the world should be saved through him. He that believeth on him is not judged: he that believeth not hath been judged already, because he hath not believed on the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the judgment, that the light is come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their works were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, and cometh not to the light, lest his works should be reproved. But he that doeth the truth cometh to the light, that his works may be made manifest, that they have been wrought in God.

In John, we see two distinct groups, those who hate the light, and those who "doeth" the truth. We are encouraged:

John 12:36 While ye have the light, believe on the light, that ye may become sons of light. These things spake Jesus, and he departed and hid himself from them.

As for blindness, we see that God send blindness to those who desire sin more than God's message. He allows forms of error.

2Th 2:9-12 even he, whose coming is according to the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, and with all deceit of unrighteousness for them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God sendeth them a working of error, that they should believe a lie: that they all might be judged who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

We see people know God, can come to the light (John 3:21, 14:21-24), but those who reject God become blind.

Rom 1:21 because that, knowing God, they glorified him not as God, neither gave thanks; but became vain in their reasonings, and their senseless heart was darkened.

The Early Church Fathers speak of this as self-blinding.

Iranaeus - Against Heresies - Book 4 Ch 39-End

4. But God, foreknowing all things, prepared fit habitations for both, kindly conferring that light which they desire on those who seek after the light of incorruption, and resort to it; but for the despisers and mockers who avoid and turn themselves away from this light, and who do, as it were, blind themselves, He has prepared darkness suitable to persons who oppose the light, and He has inflicted an appropriate punishment upon those who try to avoid being subject to Him. Submission to God is eternal rest, so that they who shun the light have a place worthy of their flight; and those who fly from eternal rest, have a habitation in accordance with their fleeing. Now, since all good things are with God, they who by their own determination fly from God, do defraud themselves of all good things; and having been [thus] defrauded of all good things with respect to God, they shall consequently fall under the just judgment of God.

If our actions cause these results, then back up a bit and look: What is behind those actions? There are always causes, right up until first cause.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

If we look closely at the scripture we will see God does not have perfect knowledge of man's actions. He is not sitting on some crystal throne dictating a plan out to man.

Gen 18:20-21 And Jehovah said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous; I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.

If we have a look at the above scripture (Jehovah) God actually came down, to see if what he had heard in heaven was actually true. And again in the verse I quoted before, God did not have knowledge of how man would turn out, He was sorry for creating man.

Gen 6:5-8 And Jehovah saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented Jehovah that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. And Jehovah said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the ground; both man, and beast, and creeping things, and birds of the heavens; for it repenteth me that I have made them. But Noah found favor in the eyes of Jehovah.

Psalm 139: 1-18

And this one :
1 John 3
18 My little children, let us not love in word or in tongue, but in deed and in truth. 19 And by this we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before Him. 20 For if our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things. 21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God. 22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. 23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Psalm 139: 1-18

And this one :
1 John 3
18 My little children, let us not love in word or in tongue, but in deed and in truth. 19 And by this we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before Him. 20 For if our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things. 21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God. 22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. 23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.

After thinking about the first scripture you provided. The following scripture could not be used in the way I presented it.

Gen 18:20-21 And Jehovah said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous; I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.

Note God says "according to the cry of it, which is come unto me", I wonder whether God can still hear the cry of people, and their hearts. But in the scripture above, he must have wanted to see it firsthand.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

After thinking about the first scripture you provided. The following scripture could not be used in the way I presented it.

Gen 18:20-21 And Jehovah said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous; I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.

Note God says "according to the cry of it, which is come unto me", I wonder whether God can still hear the cry of people, and their hearts. But in the scripture above, he must have wanted to see it firsthand.

I agree, though, I believe when ever it seems as if He does not know something He is actually going through the process with whomever He is addressing, in other words, leveling the playing field. For example in Genesis 3 God asked questions like, where are you, what have you done etc. We know God knew these answers but He engages back and for with His creation in order to have a continuous edifying dialogue. Jesus Christ of Nazareth often did this as well. Blessings

 

[Oneofhope]

But where this plan is laid down is not known

There is a Heavenly Scroll that has all things outlined within it, right down to owls and falcons. How much more, then, does this Scroll apply to humans?

Isaiah 34:14-17 NIV - "Desert creatures will meet with hyenas, and wild goats will bleat to each other; there the night creatures will also lie down and find for themselves places of rest. 15 The owl will nest there and lay eggs, she will hatch them, and care for her young under the shadow of her wings; there also the falcons will gather, each with its mate. 16 Look in the scroll of the LORD and read: None of these will be missing, not one will lack her mate. For it is his mouth that has given the order, and his Spirit will gather them together. 17 He allots their portions; his hand distributes them by measure. They will possess it forever and dwell there from generation to generation."

It amazes me that I've never heard a pastor mention these passages. Not once.

 

[Oneofhope]

If we look closely at the scripture we will see God does not have perfect knowledge of man's actions. He is not sitting on some crystal throne dictating a plan out to man.

Verse	Passage
Job 23:13-17	Whatever he wants to do, he does. So he will do to me whatever he has planned. He controls my destiny.
Job 42:02	no plan of yours can be thwarted
Exo 14:04-8	I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and he will chase after you. I have planned this
Psa 033:06-11	He makes the plans of the peoples of no effect. The counsel of the LORD stands forever, The plans of His heart
Psa 055:09	Confuse them, Lord, and frustrate their plans
Psa 138:08	The LORD will work out his plans for my life
1 Chron 28:19	he enabled me to understand all the details of the plan
Prov 16:09	We can make our plans, but the LORD determines our steps.
Prov 19:21	You can make many plans, but the LORD's purpose will prevail.
Prov 21:30	There is no wisdom, no insight, no plan that can succeed against the LORD
Isa 14:24-27	It will all happen as I have planned. It will be as I have decided - who can change his plans
Isa 46:10-11	I can tell you the future before it even happens. Everything I plan will come to pass, for I do whatever I wish
2 Kings 19:25	I decided this long ago. Long ago I planned it, and now I am making it happen.
Lam 02:17	But it is the LORD who did just as he planned. He has caused her enemies to gloat over her and has given them power over her
Acts 02:23-24	But God knew what would happen, and his prearranged plan was carried out when Jesus was betrayed
Acts 04:24-28	you spoke long ago by the Holy Spirit through our ancestor David, your servant, saying, 'Why were the nations so angry? Why did they waste their time with futile plans? For Herod Antipas, Pontius Pilate the governor, the Gentiles, and the people of Israel were all united against Jesus, your holy servant, whom you anointed. But everything they did was determined beforehand according to your will.
Eph 01:9-12	God has now revealed to us his mysterious plan regarding Christ, And this is the plan: At the right time he will bring everything together under the authority of Christ--everything in heaven and on earth. for he chose us in advance, and he makes everything work out according to his plan. God's purpose was that we Jews who were the first to trust in Christ would bring praise and glory to God.
Eph 03:9-11	I was chosen to explain to everyone this mysterious plan that God, the Creator of all things, had kept secret from the beginning. God's purpose in all this was to use the church to display his wisdom in its rich variety to all the unseen rulers and authorities in the heavenly places. This was his eternal plan, which he carried out through Christ Jesus our Lord
2 Tim 01:09	God saved us and called us to live a holy life. He did this, not because we deserved it, but because that was his plan from before the beginning of time--to show us his grace through Christ Jesus

 

[Oneofhope]

But this plan can and does alter based on our actions.

Psalm 33:10 NKJV - "The LORD brings the counsel of the nations to nothing; He makes the plans of the peoples of no effect."

 

[Oneofhope]

He was sorry for creating man.

Yes, but not because He is not in control, but because His Plan was and is painful to Him, for He must watch His executed Plan unfold. Certainly, watching His Son be tortured and murdered was sorrowful, yet it was His Eternal Plan.

Ephesians 3:10-11 NLT - "God's purpose in all this was to use the church to display his wisdom in its rich variety to all the unseen rulers and authorities in the heavenly places. This was his eternal plan, which he carried out through Christ Jesus our Lord."

 

[Oneofhope]

I see dictating a plan out for man different than foreknowledge. I agree He wishes not to take control of our choices however He does have foreknowledge of that choice. My take anyway. Blessings.

Proverbs 20:24 NLT - "The LORD directs our steps, so why try to understand everything along the way?"