My take on the predestination scriptures

[Oneofhope]

God hardens the hearts of those who do not cooperate with Him. He did the same thing to Pharaoh. That’s why Jesus so often said “he who has ears to hear, let him hear. Those who would listen to Him were able to understand Him but those who rejected His words would not. If God hardened the hearts of those who were willing to listen then He’d be the one responsible for their unrepentance thereby making His judgement upon them unjust.

I don't read it the way you're presenting the story of Pharaoh. I realize that the Scriptures state that Pharaoh hardened his heart a time or two, but there are even more references to God hardening Pharaoh's heart SO THAT the Lord could display His Power in Pharaoh.

Romans 9:17 NLT - "For the Scriptures say that God told Pharaoh, "I have appointed you for the very purpose of displaying my power in you and to spread my fame throughout the earth."

According to the context of the True Gospel, God hardening Pharaoh's heart seems most accurate.

God hardened the hearts of those who were willing to listen

This is already the pre-existing problem that all suffer from, and this is because of the Curse of the Lord, and the Curse of the Lord is because of the disobedience of Adam and Eve. All hearts are as hard as stone, which is why the Blessing and Promise made to Abraham is to remove that stony heart, for this is precisely what physical circumcision represented within the lives of Abraham and Sarah.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

I don't read it the way you're presenting the story of Pharaoh. I realize that the Scriptures state that Pharaoh hardened his heart a time or two, but there are even more references to God hardening Pharaoh's heart SO THAT the Lord could display His Power in Pharaoh.

I am just going to jump in on this one. The following verse all speak of this blindness or hardening of heart, and they start with revelation.

Rom 1:21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

They knew God but chose to rebel, so were made blind.

Joh 14:22-24 Judas (not Iscariot) saith unto him, Lord, what is come to pass that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world? Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my word: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. He that loveth me not keepeth not my words: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's who sent me.

They had God’s commands but rejected them, so had no manifestation.

Heb 3:13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called "TODAY," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

They received the Holy Spirit but persisted in sin, so were hardened.

2Th 2:9-12 even he, whose coming is according to the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, and with all deceit of unrighteousness for them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God sendeth them a working of error, that they should believe a lie: that they all might be judged who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

They did not receive the love of the truth, had pleasure in unrighteousness, and were made blind.



We see in scripture that initial blindness comes through sin and rebellion. God then uses that vessel for a bad purpose rather than a good one. Like Judas who was called a “Devil”, he was already a thief, so blinded, and used by God to betray Jesus. Or Pharaoh who God “endured with much long-suffering”, and whos heart God continued to harden.

Rom 9:22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,

 

[Diamond72]

Romans 8:29-30 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called*; whom He called*, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

You speak with a forked tongue. God can not know what we are going to do. If He did then He would become responsible for the choices we make. He has a plan (Psalm 139:16) We are told to choose if we want to follow His plan or not. Calvan and Smith both believe it was God's will to fall into sin and that is absurd. Everyone is saved and every name is written in God's book of life. That is why names have to be blotted out of HIs book.

Revelation 3:5 "The one who is victorious will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out the name of that person from the book of life, but will acknowledge that name before my Father and his angels."

The question is: How can we have freedom of choice and yet God causes good to come out of everything. As we are told all things work together for Good for those who Love God and are Called according to His purpose.

 

[Oneofhope]

God can not know what we are going to do.

Actually, when a person reads the entire Bible in a timeline, chronological order, they will discover that God is in control of everything . . . and everyone. The Lord has a Plan and He is obviously executing that Plan without fault.

Psalm 33:6-10 NKJV - "By the word of the LORD the heavens were made, And all the host of them by the breath of His mouth. He gathers the waters of the sea together as a heap; He lays up the deep in storehouses. Let all the earth fear the LORD; Let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of Him. For He spoke, and it was done; He commanded, and it stood fast. The LORD brings the counsel of the nations to nothing; He makes the plans of the peoples of no effect."

 

[Diamond72]

Actually, when a person reads the entire Bible in a timeline, chronological order, they will discover that God is in control of everything . . . and everyone. The Lord has a Plan and He is obviously executing that Plan without fault.

We are told God knows what He is doing, but for some reason, he does not seem to want to tell us.

 

[Oneofhope]

We are told God knows what He is doing, but for some reason, he does not seem to want to tell us.

Ha! Isn't it great? Isn't it exciting to know that God is putting us into situations and circumstances so that we will learn to Trust, fully knowing that we will Endure?

I don't know about you, but my life is horrible . . . and I love it!

 

[friend of]

We also see that God does not have perfect knowledge of how man will act (Gen 6:6-7).

The problem with this kind of selective omniscience is, if God chooses not to reveal things to Himself, but could know them if He desired to, then wouldn't He be required to know what those things are in order to decide that He doesn't want to know them? You follow?

 

[Diamond72]

The problem with this kind of selective omniscience is, if God chooses not to reveal things to Himself, but could know them if He desired to, then wouldn't He be required to know what those things are in order to decide that He doesn't want to know them? You follow?

Corrie Tan Boon said: He throws them in the sea of forgetfulness and puts up a no fishing sign. Hebrews 8:12 ""For I will be merciful toward their evil deeds, and their sins I will remember no longer." Everything is restored to His plan. If we are sick and God heals us, it is as if we were never sick in the first place. We are fully restored to His plan and purpose as if nothing had ever gone wrong.

 

[Diamond72]

Eph 1:4-11 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world

We are told, many are called but few are chosen. Matthew 22:14. Clearly the call is to: Whosoever is willing.

And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. Revelation 22 17

 

[FutureAndAHope]

The problem with this kind of selective omniscience is, if God chooses not to reveal things to Himself, but could know them if He desired to, then wouldn't He be required to know what those things are in order to decide that He doesn't want to know them? You follow?

Note sure I understand, please explain in more detail.

 

[Bobber]

It is limiting to suggest that God’s plan has to be linear. I am not saying God has no plan, but that it need not be linear. People in the OT understood scrolls to record events, God’s actual recording, or predestining, could be very different to a linear story. God says:



We see in Jerimiah that God does change His mind based upon mans actions. We also see in the following scriptures that man’s actions are important to an outcome.









We also see that God does not have delight in the death of the wicked, but rather calls them to repentance.





The Earliest Church Fathers also stated just because God predestines things does not mean man has no genuine free will. They state man would not be worthy of praise, or damnation if he were not free. On top of this I know of a person who fasted both food and water, God took them to heaven and showed them our “books” they are not linear but rather respond to our actions.







As a further note on this none linear story, I have studied Artificial Intelligence at university. There is a form of branching AI that can build linear stories based upon random choices. A similar system could easily be employed by God, to allow for “free will” while restraining our stories. To say He is restricted to a basic AI is limiting, how much more limiting to say God’s story must be like a linear book.

I find your thoughts very interesting.

 

[GodsGrace101]

The NLT is such a great translation . . . I love it. The KJV is amazing as well:

Proverbs 20:24 KJV - "Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?"

Proverbs 20:24 NLT - "The LORD directs our steps, so why try to understand everything along the way?"

I love the overall consistency of the two.

I've been using the NLT, at times.
Not easy to change from the NASB.
I like it.

 

[GodsGrace101]

It is limiting to suggest that God’s plan has to be linear. I am not saying God has no plan, but that it need not be linear. People in the OT understood scrolls to record events, God’s actual recording, or predestining, could be very different to a linear story. God says:



We see in Jerimiah that God does change His mind based upon mans actions. We also see in the following scriptures that man’s actions are important to an outcome.









We also see that God does not have delight in the death of the wicked, but rather calls them to repentance.





The Earliest Church Fathers also stated just because God predestines things does not mean man has no genuine free will. They state man would not be worthy of praise, or damnation if he were not free. On top of this I know of a person who fasted both food and water, God took them to heaven and showed them our “books” they are not linear but rather respond to our

Which ECFs believed in predestination?

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Which ECFs believed in predestination?

None that I am aware of.

 

[GodsGrace101]

None that I am aware of.

Please check post 73..
Your last statement.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Please check post 73..
Your last statement.

I was referring to the following statement:

Justin Martyr - First Apology - Ch 56-50​

Chap. XLIII — Responsibility Asserted.

But lest some suppose, from what has been said by us, that we say that whatever happens, happens by a fatal necessity, because it is foretold as known beforehand, this too we explain. We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, and chastisements, and good rewards, are rendered according to the merit of each man’s actions. Since if it be not so, but all things happen by fate, neither is anything at all in our own power. For if it be fated that this man, e.g., be good, and this other evil, neither is the former meritorious nor the latter to be blamed. And again, unless the human race have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions, of whatever kind they be. But that it is by free choice they both walk uprightly and stumble, we thus demonstrate. We see the same man making a transition to opposite things. Now, if it had been fated that he were to be either good or bad, he could never have been capable of both the opposites, nor of so many transitions. But not even would some be good and others bad, since we thus make fate the cause of evil, and exhibit her as acting in opposition to herself; or that which has been already stated would seem to be true, that neither virtue nor vice is anything, but that things are only reckoned good or evil by opinion; which, as the true word shows, is the greatest impiety and wickedness. But this we assert is inevitable fate, that they who choose the good have worthy rewards, and they who choose the opposite have their merited awards. For not like other things, as trees and quadrupeds, which cannot act by choice, did God make man: for neither would he be worthy of reward or praise did he not of himself choose the good, but were created for this end; nor, if he were evil, would he be worthy of punishment, not being evil of himself, but being able to be nothing else than what he was made.

 

[John Mullally]

The NLT is such a great translation . . . I love it. The KJV is amazing as well:

Proverbs 20:24 KJV - "Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?"

Proverbs 20:24 NLT - "The LORD directs our steps, so why try to understand everything along the way?"

I love the overall consistency of the two.

The Lord directs the steps (frequently through scriptural directives), but we may not follow. This is seen with God's man Jonah who was His prophet and well knew the Lord, but resisted His direction in preaching to Ninevah. Even God's prophets can resist God's directives - this shows that man has a free will. Being that man has free will, God did not irresistably change Johah's mind to get Him to conform (as that is not how God works) - in mercy for the sake of the others in Ninevah God turned up the heat on Jonah (you know the story) and got Him to conform! There is no hocus-pocus where God irresistably changes the mind of those stout against him - sometimes God uses hard knocks as we also see in Paul's case - where he was verbally rebuked by Jesus and struck blind. In general, though, it is the goodness of God that leads to repentance (Romans 2:4).

 

[John Mullally]

Proverbs 20:24 NLT - "The LORD directs our steps, so why try to understand everything along the way?"

This shows God’s ability to influence and effect outcomes, and it stands to reason that God could do this for any person and in any scenario, should God wish it. For example, I can turn my dog’s attention whenever I wish, but that doesn’t mean that I always do so. Establishing God’s ability over a man's will doesn’t disprove free human agency, but rather establishes it. After all, what is there for God to overcome or guide if not the autonomous will of His subject? Why turn a will left that wants to go right if you’re already controlling the want of that will?