My Suspended Entropy Challenge

[Jamin4422]

Not sure how your work is relevant, but the bible does not say the 2nd law of thermodynamics was suspended.

I do not remember reading about the law of thermodynamics in the Bible. IT maybe in there though.

 

[Tiberius]

Oh, so you want a scripture, ok. Isa 50:9 Behold, the Lord GOD will help me; who [is] he [that] shall condemn me? lo, they all shall wax old as a garment; the moth shall eat them up.

It's idiotic for the following reasons:

1. The moths didn't change the frequency of the alleles for colours until the industrial revolution. This was a long time after the time when Moses is alleged to have gone walkabout in the desert.
2. There's no evidence to suggest that a change in the dominant allele will result in confusion for the moths.
3. The moths do not eat clothes, their larvae do, and they don't undergo the colour change.
4. Your Bible verse says nothing about changes of colour in the moths.

There's four reasons why your claim is idiotic.

 

[RickG]

If the Bible says it happened then you can be sure that it happened. If we can explain it or not. I spend a good part of my life doing remodeling, repair, renovation and restoration work. So I do know a little bit about this subject.

Even when the physical evidence says differently? That means either it is not literal or God is a trickster. Take your pick.

 

[Jamin4422]

Even when the physical evidence says differently?

Show me where the physical evidence says differently. The only conflict is with the traditions of man. Science helps us to understand the Bible and God's message for us today in the Bible.

 

[Tiberius]

Well, the whole flood thing springs to mind. We have a huge amount of evidence that could not have occurred if the flood have happened, along with a total lack of any evidence that the flood did occur.

Now, try to explain that but saying that evidence from reality is based on the traditions of man...

 

[CabVet]

Explain this phenomenon ...

Deuteronomy 29:5 And I have led you forty years in the wilderness: your clothes are not waxen old upon you, and thy shoe is not waxen old upon thy foot.

... in such a way as to pass peer review and get acclaim in physics for showing how the second law of thermodynamics was suspended back then.

First you have to prove that actually happened, then and only then we can talk about natural laws.

 

[AV1611VET]

They were on a desert, so they did not have the mold and mildew that people have with a more wet climate. Also that stuff was not made in China like it all is today. They use to know how to make stuff to last a lifetime Also as any evolutionist can tell you the moths were confused as they were going through a change from black to white. So they did not get a chance to eat their clothing.

 

[Jro]

It's idiotic for the following reasons:

1. The moths didn't change the frequency of the alleles for colours until the industrial revolution. This was a long time after the time when Moses is alleged to have gone walkabout in the desert.
2. There's no evidence to suggest that a change in the dominant allele will result in confusion for the moths.
3. The moths do not eat clothes, their larvae do, and they don't undergo the colour change.
4. Your Bible verse says nothing about changes of colour in the moths.

There's four reasons why your claim is idiotic.

Yo everyone knows it was just Kettlewell with a couple of spray paint cans.

 

[Jamin4422]

Well, the whole flood thing springs to mind.

Your talking about the traditions of man, not the Bible. There is a reason why the BIBLE is the word of God. NOT man's opinions about the Bible. Think about this, I mean really think about it. The Bible has all the authority of God. Your opinion of the Bible has NONE of the authority of God.

So you give me your opinion, of another persons opinion and none of this has to do with God or the word of God. Have you ever read the Bible? Have you ever even studied the Bible at all? Do you know first hand anything at all about the Bible. Or do you just know man's opinions and what others tell you about it.

So should we listen to your opinion of another man's opinion, or should we look at what God has to say about it.

 

[Jro]

Your talking about the traditions of man, not the Bible. There is a reason why the BIBLE is the word of God. NOT man's opinions about the Bible. Think about this, I mean really think about it. The Bible has all the authority of God. Your opinion of the Bible has NONE of the authority of God.

So you give me your opinion, of another persons opinion and none of this has to do with God or the word of God. Have you ever read the Bible? Have you ever even studied the Bible at all? Do you know first hand anything at all about the Bible. Or do you just know man's opinions and what others tell you about it.

So should we listen to your opinion of another man's opinion, or should we look at what God has to say about it.

Isn't it just your opinion that the Bible is the literal word of God? Other people have thought that it was like, a metaphor dude. Why should I trust your opinion?

 

[Jamin4422]

Yo everyone knows it was just Kettlewell with a couple of spray paint cans.

Actually what we all know is that God created them from the beginning with all the variation they will ever need. It is JUST like the hamsters they raise for pets. All of a sudden one day miracle of miracles a hamster came out a different color. Science all over the world began to write peer reviewed articles claiming this as evidence for evolution. NONSENSE. Hamsters out in the wild have always been 40 different colors. The lab hamsters just had that bred out of them. Only as it turns out there was a very, very, very recessive gene somewhere that pops one day and a different color hamster comes out.

They need to first study the wild hamster before they can offer us any opinions about the domesticated hamster. Domesticated plants and animals always have LESS variation then they did in the wild before they began to bred them for domestic use. At least according to Daniel Zohary who has studied this all of his life and is[FONT=arial, sans-serif] Professor Emeritus of Ecology, Evolution & Behavior at Jerusalem University. [/FONT]

 

[Jamin4422]

Isn't it just your opinion that the Bible is the literal word of God?

Yes, but the point is there is a difference between the word of God and people opinions about the word of God. In general I back up my opinion with peer reviewed science. In other words when it comes to science the opinion I offer is the opinion of people that are experts in their field and they are evolutionists that teach at the universities around the world. Or people like Francis Collins that is well known for his research work on DNA. When it comes to the Bible I do talk about things like Dispensationalism and Covenant Theology. But it's understood we are talking about theology. These are subjects that you can or should be able to take classes on in a Bible college. When it comes to the Bible then I offer Phd level opinions on Theology and the Bible. I do not try to peddle the fruit of five min time spent at skeptics dot com. I offer what has taken me days, weeks, months and years to study and learn. Even I continue to study and learn every day.

 

[Jro]

Yes, but the point is there is a difference between the word of God and people opinions about the word of God. In general I back up my opinion with peer reviewed science. In other words when it comes to science the opinion I offer is the opinion of people that are experts in their field and they are evolutionists that teach at the universities around the world. Or people like Francis Collins that is well known for his research work on DNA. When it comes to the Bible I do talk about things like Dispensationalism and Covenant Theology. But it's understood we are talking about theology. These are subjects that you can or should be able to take classes on in a Bible college. When it comes to the Bible then I offer Phd level opinions on Theology and the Bible. I do not try to peddle the fruit of five min time spent at skeptics dot com. I offer what has taken me days, weeks, months and years to study and learn. Even I continue to study and learn every day.

Uh huh, so you read about a lot of other people's opinions, which are, likewise, backed up by yet more people's opinions, then you try to twist the evidence to fit those opinions.

Actually what we all know is that God created them from the beginning with all the variation they will ever need. It is JUST like the hamsters they raise for pets. All of a sudden one day miracle of miracles a hamster came out a different color. Science all over the world began to write peer reviewed articles claiming this as evidence for evolution. NONSENSE. Hamsters out in the wild have always been 40 different colors. The lab hamsters just had that bred out of them. Only as it turns out there was a very, very, very recessive gene somewhere that pops one day and a different color hamster comes out.

They need to first study the wild hamster before they can offer us any opinions about the domesticated hamster. Domesticated plants and animals always have LESS variation then they did in the wild before they began to bred them for domestic use. At least according to Daniel Zohary who has studied this all of his life and is Professor Emeritus of Ecology, Evolution & Behavior at Jerusalem University.

Uh huh.

REPLICA PLATING AND INDIRECT SELECTION OF BACTERIAL MUTANTS

Whoops, I dropped this.

Edit: I'm curious - if you believe that the Bible is the literal word of God and literal truth, then you believe in the Flood (presumably, correct me if I'm wrong). In this account Noah saved two of each species from a worldwide (your opinion on this?) flood. If there were only two of each individual creature, where does the pre-existing genetic variation come from?

 

[Belk]

Explain this phenomenon ...

Deuteronomy 29:5 And I have led you forty years in the wilderness: your clothes are not waxen old upon you, and thy shoe is not waxen old upon thy foot.

... in such a way as to pass peer review and get acclaim in physics for showing how the second law of thermodynamics was suspended back then.

*Blinks*

You have no clue what would happen if the second law of thermodynamics was suspended AV. Even if it was suspended, it would not result in what happened in your bible verse. Perhaps you should ask God what method he used instead of trying to muck up the answer yourself?

 

[AV1611VET]

You have no clue what would happen if the second law of thermodynamics was suspended AV. Even if it was suspended, it would not result in what happened in your bible verse.

I was waiting for someone to say that.

The phenomenon of wear and tear is a good demonstration of the Second Law of Thermodynamics in action - roughly speaking, objects will get messier and more worn down over time (they are said to have higher entropyhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entropy), unless energy from the outside world is used to fix them.

SOURCE

 

[Freodin]

I was waiting for someone to say that.


SOURCE

Somehow I don't think you (again, again, again) understood what Belk was aiming at.

From the wiki link you posted: "... unless energy from the outside world is used to fix them."

Now IF the verse you quoted really does refer to a factual phenomenon, it would be a much easier and better explanation to assume that there was "enery from the outside world" involved that to assume that the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics was "suspended". For THAT would lead to a whole ton of rather serious problems beyond shoes and clothes that the Israelites somehow missed.

 

[Belk]

I was waiting for someone to say that.


SOURCE

And so you think if the law is "suspended" that won't happen. But because you are basing this off your layman's understanding of 2LOT you don't understand what would really happen. Hint: Things will not simply stop decaying. Like Freodin said, that would speak more to an influx of outside energy.

 

[sandwiches]

Explain this phenomenon ...

Deuteronomy 29:5 And I have led you forty years in the wilderness: your clothes are not waxen old upon you, and thy shoe is not waxen old upon thy foot.

... in such a way as to pass peer review and get acclaim in physics for showing how the second law of thermodynamics was suspended back then.

AV being a Christian, I don't get his penchant for demonstrating how the stories of the Bible couldn't have happened as written.

 

[AV1611VET]

AV being a Christian, I don't get his penchant for demonstrating how the stories of the Bible couldn't have happened as written.

I'm not sure why anyone posts here, if they can't answer the challenge.

They don't need to prove to me they can't answer it; but trying to find flaws with my wording or saying it didn't happen isn't making any points, as far as I'm concerned.

It's their prerogative though.

If they want to play Ring the Bell, fine; but if they can't do it, don't make it look like the game was rigged.

 

[sandwiches]

I'm not sure why anyone posts here, if they can't answer the challenge.

They don't need to prove to me they can't answer it; but trying to find flaws with my wording or saying it didn't happen isn't making any points, as far as I'm concerned.

It's their prerogative though.

If they want to play Ring the Bell, fine; but if they can't do it, don't make it look like the game was rigged.

Amen, brother!

I hope you keep posting these challenges, AV. I'm just a little confused and surprised is all but you're doing fine by me! =)