My SOFT Challenge

[AV1611VET]

Where it's always been: a catchy shorthand phrase.

Sure.

If it doesn't fit, you must acquit.

And it sounds to me like people are saying it doesn't fit.

 

[Yttrium]

Fight or Flight.

Whoosh!

Right over my head.

 

[essentialsaltes]

Whoosh!

Right over my head.

If it doesn't fit, you must acquit.

Ditto.

 

[AV1611VET]

Ditto.

So "fight or flight" is another embarrassingly truncated term that evolutionists quietly dropped from their vocabulary?

Right now, I'm dealing with "survival of the fittest" here.

 

[essentialsaltes]

So "fight or flight" is another embarrassingly truncated term that evolutionists quietly dropped from their vocabulary?

No, I think Yttrium and I are having a hard time understanding the relevance of your responses to our comments.

 

[Occams Barber]

So "fight or flight" is another embarrassingly truncated term that evolutionists quietly dropped from their vocabulary?

Right now, I'm dealing with "survival of the fittest" here.

"Fight or flight" has never been a term associated with evolution. It's a term describing animal behavioural response when threatened. More correctly it should be 'fight, flight or freeze'.

"Survival of the fittest" was coined back in the 1860s. "Fittest' refers to reproductive success. Over time the term may have taken on a sense of life or death or survival through aggression. Fitness has also taken on other meanings (like a reference to physical fitness) since the 1860s.

Overall the term just wore out its usefulness as a metaphor for 'natural selection'.

OB

 

[AV1611VET]

"Fittest' refers to reproductive success.

It does now, but QV:

Darwin wrote on page 6 of The Variation of Animals and Plants under Domestication published in 1868, "This preservation, during the battle for life, of varieties which possess any advantage in structure, constitution, or instinct, I have called Natural Selection; and Mr. Herbert Spencer has well expressed the same idea by the Survival of the Fittest.

SOURCE

Remember my example with the "varieties" battling for life with cytotoxins?

 

[Occams Barber]

It does now, but QV:

SOURCE

Remember my example with the "varieties" battling for life with cytotoxins?

From your own linked Wikipedia article:

"Survival of the fittest" is a phrase that originated from Darwinian evolutionary theory as a way of describing the mechanism of natural selection. The biological concept of fitness is defined as reproductive success. In Darwinian terms the phrase is best understood as "Survival of the form that will leave the most copies of itself in successive generations."​

OB

 

[AV1611VET]

From your own linked Wikipedia article:

"Survival of the fittest" is a phrase that originated from Darwinian evolutionary theory as a way of describing the mechanism of natural selection. The biological concept of fitness is defined as reproductive success. In Darwinian terms the phrase is best understood as "Survival of the form that will leave the most copies of itself in successive generations."​

OB

Yes ... I ... know.

It means that NOW.

But what about back then?

You know?

Before scientists embarrassingly truncated the "of the fittest"?

 

[Occams Barber]

Yes ... I ... know.

It means that NOW.

But what about back then?

You know?

Before scientists embarrassingly truncated the "of the fittest"?

Back then it meant survival of the form/group/species with the most reproductive success. The whole thrust of Darwin's theory is about reproductive success. Over time the word 'survival' juxtaposed with a changing sense of the meaning of 'fitness' led to the perception that evolution was some kind of physical face off. In evolutionary terms, you might be the biggest, baddest, bare-knuckle boxer but if the skinny guy has more kids, he wins.

The word 'advantage' in your quote refers to reproductive advantage.

This preservation, during the battle for life, of varieties which possess any advantage in structure, constitution, or instinct, I have called Natural Selection; and Mr. Herbert Spencer has well expressed the same idea by the Survival of the Fittest.

​

OB

 

[BobRyan]

Where does survival of the fittest fit in with evolution today?

I don't hear that term much anymore.

Usually they stop at "survival," and "of the fittest" seems to have made an [embarrassing?] exit.

Its called "tautology" the "survival of the survivors"

 

[AV1611VET]

Its called "tautology" the "survival of the survivors"

I like:

"Survival of the fittest" doesn't explain "arrival of the fittest."

 

[Hans Blaster]

It does now, but QV:

SOURCE

Remember my example with the "varieties" battling for life with cytotoxins?

It would be helpful (to you frankly) if you remembered that the collected works of Darwin are not some sort of "scripture" for "evolutionists". Most of us who support the evolutionary explanation for the variety of life have never read any full work by Darwin. (I've only read a few quoted passages. I've read more, but not all, of your scriptures. My reading on evolution has been only of works written after the incorporation of DNA-based genetics and mutations into evolutionary theory.)

 

[essentialsaltes]

I like:

"Survival of the fittest" doesn't explain "arrival of the fittest."

I refer you to Chapters II and V of On the Origin of Species, which deal with variations. Alas, they don't fit well on a bumpersticker.

 

[Hans Blaster]

I refer you to Chapters II and V of On the Origin of Species, which deal with variations. Alas, they don't fit well on a bumpersticker.

I just tried to convince him that Darwin wasn't scripture.

 

[essentialsaltes]

I just tried to convince him that Darwin wasn't scripture.

Certainly true, but his work contains a lot about what Darwin's theory is, as opposed to a pithy phrase coined by someone else in a different context.

 

[AV1611VET]

I just tried to convince him that Darwin wasn't scripture.

That's neat.

Darwin is considered the Father of Evolution, yet we aren't supposed to take his writings as gospel.

 

[VirOptimus]

That's neat.

Darwin is considered the Father of Evolution, yet we aren't supposed to take his writings as gospel.

Yes, because thats not how science works.

 

[Occams Barber]

I just tried to convince him that Darwin wasn't scripture.

I keep my copy of 'Origins' in an ornate gold plated reliquary, on a side table in a sheltered alcove. It's lit by the flickering ambience of a perennial votive candle and washed with the soft incense of sandalwood.

Am I overdoing it?
OB

 

[Kylie]

Where does survival of the fittest fit in with evolution today?

I don't hear that term much anymore.

Usually they stop at "survival," and "of the fittest" seems to have made an [embarrassing?] exit.

It's still just as valid as it ever was. Those individuals among a population that are the fittest (read: best able to reproduce) are the ones that are going to pass on the genes for the traits that made them better able to reproduce (that's the survival).