My Relativity Challenge

[Lost Angel]

Reword the following sentence so scientists won't misinterpret it:

The sun dropped below the horizon.

I am not sure what is to misrepresented. This is dusk. From the observers point of view, theSun is dropping down over time to beckon night.

 

[Usus Vox Tractus]

Wouldn't a strictly literal reading of that fragment imply that movement of the sun normally provided day and night?


(Just a note, I'm not a Christian, but I don't see this reference as a particular good attack on the bible. Obviously the rest of the world world have noticed if a day suddenly didn't end, but surely God could have warped time and space just for that battle field without difficult).

The rest of the world did notice: The Day the Sun Stood Still--Joshua's Long Day ....Page 35

In 1940, Harry Rimmer summarized these traditions as follows:

In the ancient Chinese writings there is a legend of a long day. The Incas of Peru and the Aztecs of Mexico have a like record, and there is a Babylonian and a Persian legend of a day that was miraculously extended. Another section of China contributes an account of the day that was miraculously prolonged, in the reign of Emperor Yeo.

Herodotus recounts that the priests of Egypt showed him their temple records, and that there he read a strange account of a day that was twice the natural length. Rimmer concludes this section with a lengthy quotation from the Polynesian account of this event.

​

 

[selfinflikted]

In 1940, Harry Rimmer summarized these traditions as follows:

In the ancient Chinese writings there is a legend of a long day. The Incas of Peru and the Aztecs of Mexico have a like record, and there is a Babylonian and a Persian legend of a day that was miraculously extended. Another section of China contributes an account of the day that was miraculously prolonged, in the reign of Emperor Yeo.

Herodotus recounts that the priests of Egypt showed him their temple records, and that there he read a strange account of a day that was twice the natural length. Rimmer concludes this section with a lengthy quotation from the Polynesian account of this event.

​

Well then, it must be true.

 

[Usus Vox Tractus]

I am not sure what is to misrepresented. This is dusk. From the observers point of view, theSun is dropping down over time to beckon night.

Yet I am on the other side of the world and at the same time you see the sun set, I see it rise.

It is day, night, dusk and dawn all at the same time on this planet.

 

[bhsmte]

The rest of the world did notice: The Day the Sun Stood Still--Joshua's Long Day ....Page 35

In 1940, Harry Rimmer summarized these traditions as follows:

In the ancient Chinese writings there is a legend of a long day. The Incas of Peru and the Aztecs of Mexico have a like record, and there is a Babylonian and a Persian legend of a day that was miraculously extended. Another section of China contributes an account of the day that was miraculously prolonged, in the reign of Emperor Yeo.

Herodotus recounts that the priests of Egypt showed him their temple records, and that there he read a strange account of a day that was twice the natural length. Rimmer concludes this section with a lengthy quotation from the Polynesian account of this event.

​

Any chance this story is made up?

If not, show me how this story can be verified as being true.

 

[Usus Vox Tractus]

Well then, it must be true.

Certainly adds a high degree of corroboration. But if you want to jump to "TRUTH!" that's your business.

 

[bhsmte]

Certainly adds a high degree of corroboration. But if you want to jump to "TRUTH!" that's your business.

Depends on what standard you set the bar for corroboration.

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

Sounds geocentric, doesn't it?

Also sounds like the earth may be rotating too, doesn't it?

I dreamed I found myself entering heaven and met my guardian angel at the pearly gates. He ushered me into a debriefing room prior to entering eternal glory. He explained where my mansion was, gave me a set of maps, issued me my wings and harp, and asked me how things were doing on earth, from my perspective of course.

"Well," I said, "I've been concerned over the dismal state of science on earth, especially in God's own churches. You know, I was a baptist, the best kind of church."

At this my angel raised a quizical eyebrow. Seeing the expression as a kind of warning, I quickly remarked "Well, as far as I knew at the time, of course". I think he was just concerned about my remnants of earthly pride, but I'm still not sure. It's not the kind of thing I felt free to ask about.

The angel took out his big book. "Hmm, I see here you were a frequent contributer to certain bulliten boards on the subject of evolution in the last part of your life . . ."

"Yes," I said, "That's true. It would appear that churchmen through the ages have been reluctant to accept the obvious scientific truth."

The angel again gave me a funny look. This time I know I had no idea what he was thinking.

"Well," he said at last, "in a way that's why we're having this little conversation. We have a special assignment for you, before you actually enter eternal glory. I suppose you noticed you were sidetracked from the usual crowds pressing on to the regions of light?"

I had noticed that. It had made me nervous. I continued to listen.

"What we would like you to do", said the angel, "Is to go back in time and talk to Martin Luthor, one of our key figures in the Great Reformation. He rejected the teachings of Copernicus, you know, and we've decided it would be ok to alter history and have him set the church on a course of being more reconciled with science. If you are in agreement, we have decided to send you down there to talk him into accepting the Copernican Heliocentric view of the solar system."

"Well," I said, "That would be a key event that might make a difference in the church's relations with science. I'm willing, if you really . . ."

Immediately heaven was lost to my view and I found myself dressed in odd clothes walking towards Martin Luthor's house, where I knew I was invited to be a dinner guest that night. I had no wrist watch, I had no keys, no money, no cell phone, just myself.

"think I can do it" I finished, to no one in particular. Language? Probably I'm already thinking in German and don't even know it. Yes, I could tell that was the case, don't ask me how.

I walked up to the door and the servants let me in, they had been expecting me. I was one of several guests. After dinner, Martin Luthor, as was his wont, began to engage the guests in conversation.

"So tell me, Paul of Eugene;" he asked. "What do you think of the sayings of this upstart Copernicus? It seems he wants to overturn the whole world with his musings!"

I tried to word my reply very carefully, in a way that perhaps he would understand. "You know," I said, "Maybe the scriptures aren't really against him. Don't you think Joshua could have been speaking according to the ordinary interpretation of how things appear to men when He wrote that the Sun stood still?"

"NONSENSE" roared the great reformer. "You know what it plainly says. It says the Sun stood still, and not the earth. This is Divinely Inspired Scripture. Why can't you JUST ACCEPT WHAT IT SAYS?"

My heart quailed as he uttered these words. For the rest of the night Luthor was in his glory, letting pearls of wisdom drop down to eager listners. And there was a lot of truth he said, and lots of good would come of what he shared that night. But I had failed.

When we were put to bed for the night, I awoke back on earth in my own bedroom. It had all been a dream.

Still, I was left wondering. Is there anything that would have changed Luthor's historically recorded opinions, which we all know (well most of us <ggg>) turned out to be false? I sadly fear that with this notion - JUST ACCEPT WHAT IT SAYS - he made himself utterly immune to some truths that should have been plainly seen.

What has this to do with our present day situation? Everything.

History is repeating itself before our eyes. Once again literalistic interpreters are quarreling with the findings of science, heedless of the problems such thinking caused for Martin Luther and his followers.

Sadly, they commit the ultimate of hypocracies, by accepting the findings of science instead of the literal teachings of scripture in the special case of the rotation of the earth as the cause of day and night. They do this without knowing what they do, of course, because they grew up knowing about the rotation of the earth and therefore accept it so completely it never occurs to them that the Bible says, literally, something else.

But it was not always so. Luther couldn't find it in himself to accept science instead of the literal words of scripture.

My challenge to the creationists is . . . what could Luther have done, if anything, to keep from making his mistake? Or was he simply unable to keep from it, doomed by the circustances of his day to be unable to appreciate the simple fact that Copernicus was, after all, right?

If he was so doomed, perhaps we see why creationists are as they are today, likewise doomed to go into the dustbin of history as obstructionists to the truth; for that is surely their ultimate fate.

 

[Usus Vox Tractus]

Moar your say? Why the Sun Stood Still - Reader's Digest

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Dr. Immanuel Velikovsky, calls his book Worlds In Collision. As Darwin did, he sets up certain original hypotheses, and buttresses them with impressive scholarship. Like a detective among the sciences, (archaeology, paleontology, geology, astronomy, psychology, anthropology, physics) he has put together by deductive reasoning a chain of circumstantial evidence that may deeply affect the world of thinking men.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The links of his reasoning are forged out of the history and literature of ancient and modern tribes and nations from all over the earth. Text and footnotes sparkle with confirming data from the Bible and the Talmud, from Egyptian papyri, Babylonian astronomical tablets, Mayan and Aztec calendars, from the folklore of Arabia, India, North America, Tibet, China, Peru.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The tale of the sun standing still illustrates one of his principal methods for getting at the facts. Clearly if the sun &#8220;hasted not to go down about a whole day&#8221; the phenomenon could not have been merely a local spectacle. The whole area of the earth had to be affected: if the sun hung in the morning sky o[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]ver Gibeon, then elsewhere in the world twilight or darkness was prolonged for the same period.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Dr. Velikovsky produces records from all over the earth which agree as to the time and as to the altered portions of daylight and dark in each area. Similarly concerted testimony repeats itself again and again in other wonder stories. For every such incident which he analyzes, Dr. Velikovsky quotes dozens, scores, even hundreds of confirmations.[/FONT]



[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]For the Bible&#8217;s most incredible story - the standing still of the moon and sun while Joshua routed the foe - there is worldwide evidence. says Dr. Velikovsky at the start of a long series of citations:[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]&#8220;Allowing for the difference in longitude, it must have been early morning or night in the Western Hemisphere. We go to the books with the historical traditions of the aborigines of Central America. In the Mexican Annuls of Cuauhtitlan -- the history of the empire of Clohuacan and Mexico, written in Nahua-Indian (Nahuatl) -- it is related that during a cosmic catastrophe that occurred in the remote past the night did not end for a long time. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]We could follow a path around the earth and inquire into the various traditions concerning a prolonged night and prolonged day, with sun and moon absent or tarrying at different points along the zodiac.&#8221;[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Which he goes on to do. What happened, then, on that mysterious day? The theory of Worlds in Collision rests on catastrophes caused by a great comet that passed near the earth twice, first about 1500 B.C., at the time of the Exodus, and again 52 years later, in the time of Joshua; and a repetition of the earlier catastrophes on a smaller scale due to several near brushes with the planet Mars some 700 to 800 years later. These astral cataclysms caused strange things to happen on the earth and in the sky.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The explanation of Joshua&#8217;s miracle is that if a large enough comet were ever to come near the earth just such spectacular things would come to pass. The encounter would slow down the earth in its daily turning, and people who think the sun goes around the earth would see, among other mystical sights, the sun and moon as if suddenly halted in the heavens. That, Velikovsky maintains, is exactly what occurred.[/FONT]

 

[Usus Vox Tractus]

Holy hopping hallelujahs! I just realized Velikovsky's Venus conjecture would bake the cake and put a cherry on top of all the "Lucifer/Satan/Fallen angel" myths!!!


Jove/Jupiter/King of Heaven casts out the Rebel Venus, hurled to earth to cause woe for a time.


No wonder such a story was fully embedded into the world mythos!

 

[Usus Vox Tractus]

Depends on what standard you set the bar for corroboration.

How about the same account from multiple cultures the world over?

 

[RickG]

How about the same account from multiple cultures the world over?

If all were quantifiable in the same time-frame that would work. The fact is they do not.

 

[Usus Vox Tractus]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Why the Sun Stood Still - Reader's Digest[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]As late as the time of our great grandfathers, no one in the scholarly world believed that a stone could fall from the sky. That skepticism was shared by Copernicus, Galileo, Kepler and Newton, among many others up to 1803, when a shower of meteorites falling at L’Aigle in France was investigated by the French Academy of Sciences. Then, for the first time, educated man recognized that some wild thing in the sky could collide with us.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]In the Bible accounts the author finds extraordinary confirmation of the presence of a comet during those bewildering days. If, for example, the head of a comet approached the earth, a rain, a very torrent, of meteorites would assuredly fall upon us. In the book of Joshua, only two verses before the sun is suspended on high, we read how the “Lord cast down great stones from Heaven.” Although the man who wrote the Book of Joshua knew nothing of the connection between the stones falling from t he sky and a stoppage of the earth, he gives a vivid and scientifically accurate description.[/FONT]

 

[Split Rock]

As I have said before, I believe God created the earth first, then built the universe around it.

Where the earth is in relation to the universe doesn't matter.

It could be in the center of the universe, or close to the edge.

In other words, the earth is "geoprominent," not "geocentric."

Yes, I remember. However, when the earth is created first and then the sun and moon are both put into the firmament above the earth, a geocentric model is strongly implied. No where does GEN say the earth is made to move or circle around the sun. Moreover, the sun and moon are treated equally... both put into the firmament above the earth.. and both serve as lights. Yet, the moon revolves around the earth (as one would expect from the passages), while the earth revolves around the sun (which one would not expect).

 

[Split Rock]

How about the same account from multiple cultures the world over?

If you look at these cultures, they are all ones familiar with local flooding from rivers. Flooding was a familiar issue for all these cultures, and potentially quite devastating. Thus, it isn't strange they would all have some kind of a doomsday myth centering on a huge flood.

 

[Split Rock]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Why the Sun Stood Still - Reader's Digest[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]As late as the time of our great grandfathers, no one in the scholarly world believed that a stone could fall from the sky. That skepticism was shared by Copernicus, Galileo, Kepler and Newton, among many others up to 1803, when a shower of meteorites falling at L’Aigle in France was investigated by the French Academy of Sciences. Then, for the first time, educated man recognized that some wild thing in the sky could collide with us.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]In the Bible accounts the author finds extraordinary confirmation of the presence of a comet during those bewildering days. If, for example, the head of a comet approached the earth, a rain, a very torrent, of meteorites would assuredly fall upon us. In the book of Joshua, only two verses before the sun is suspended on high, we read how the “Lord cast down great stones from Heaven.” Although the man who wrote the Book of Joshua knew nothing of the connection between the stones falling from t he sky and a stoppage of the earth, he gives a vivid and scientifically accurate description.[/FONT]

Can you explain why REV features stars falling toward the earth?
REV 6:13 "And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind."
Doesn't sound to me that the author(s) understood what stars are.

 

[selfinflikted]

Certainly adds a high degree of corroboration. But if you want to jump to "TRUTH!" that's your business.

Ah, I forgot to add the <sarcasm> tags.

 

[Strathos]

I'll again point out that the only reason (or at least the main reason) that non-Christians claim the Bible teachers geocentrism is because the church and most Christians said it did for over 1000 years, and some still do today.

 

[Usus Vox Tractus]

Ah, I forgot to add the <sarcasm> tags.

The Day the Sun Stood Still--Joshua's Long Day ....Page 35


In the morning the waters arose as a wall and moved apart... And the children of Israel went into the midst of the sea upon the dry ground: and the waters were a wall unto them on their right hand and on their left. And the Egyptians pursued. ...And it came to pass, that in the morning watch the Lord looked unto the host of the Egyptians through the pillar of fire and of the cloud... And the waters returned and covered the chariots, and the horsemen, and all the host of Pharaoh that came into the sea after them; there remained not so much as one of them.

Actually, all the earth was pausing through those same events. In China, Yahous time was the time of Moses in Palestine; in Chinese chronologies you will find the following reports: The sun did not set for a number of days; the forests were set on fire; a high wave, reaching the sky, poured over the land.

After the earth paused in its rotation it started spinning again. And here we encounter a fascinating mystery. Our planet now rotates from west to eaSt. Has it always done so? The ancient charts seem to suggest otherwise. There are charts painted on the ceiling of an Egyptian tomb which show the heavens as theY were, over the Middle East, before and after these cataclysms -- and there is a complete and unmistakable reversal.

Plato wrote in the Statesman of the change in the rising and setting of the sun and other heavenly bodies, how in these times they used to set in the quarter where they now rise. And a little later he added: At certain periods the universe has its present circular motion, and at other periods it revolves in the reverse direction.

Of all the changes which take place in the heavens, this reversal is the greatest and most complete. Velikovsky turns to the natural sciences for an explanation. He points out that this globe of ours is a huge magnet. When a thunderbolt strikes a magnet, it reverses the magnetic poles; what before was north is now south, and vice versa. On a grand scale, a short circuit between the earth and a celestial body, such as the comet, could result in the magnetic poles of the earth changes places, instantaneously.

Geological records indicate that something of the sort must have happened. Velikovsky quotes from Alvin Greene McNish, the geophysicist: Examination of magnetization of some ingenious rocks indicates that the polarity of the earth has been completely reversed within geological times.​

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

The Day the Sun Stood Still--Joshua's Long Day ....Page 35


In the morning the waters arose as a wall and moved apart... And the children of Israel went into the midst of the sea upon the dry ground: and the waters were a wall unto them on their right hand and on their left. And the Egyptians pursued. ...And it came to pass, that in the morning watch the Lord looked unto the host of the Egyptians through the pillar of fire and of the cloud... And the waters returned and covered the chariots, and the horsemen, and all the host of Pharaoh that came into the sea after them; there remained not so much as one of them.

Actually, all the earth was pausing through those same events. In China, Yahous time was the time of Moses in Palestine; in Chinese chronologies you will find the following reports: The sun did not set for a number of days; the forests were set on fire; a high wave, reaching the sky, poured over the land.

After the earth paused in its rotation it started spinning again. And here we encounter a fascinating mystery. Our planet now rotates from west to eaSt. Has it always done so? The ancient charts seem to suggest otherwise. There are charts painted on the ceiling of an Egyptian tomb which show the heavens as theY were, over the Middle East, before and after these cataclysms -- and there is a complete and unmistakable reversal.

Plato wrote in the Statesman of the change in the rising and setting of the sun and other heavenly bodies, how in these times they used to set in the quarter where they now rise. And a little later he added: At certain periods the universe has its present circular motion, and at other periods it revolves in the reverse direction.

Of all the changes which take place in the heavens, this reversal is the greatest and most complete. Velikovsky turns to the natural sciences for an explanation. He points out that this globe of ours is a huge magnet. When a thunderbolt strikes a magnet, it reverses the magnetic poles; what before was north is now south, and vice versa. On a grand scale, a short circuit between the earth and a celestial body, such as the comet, could result in the magnetic poles of the earth changes places, instantaneously.

Geological records indicate that something of the sort must have happened. Velikovsky quotes from Alvin Greene McNish, the geophysicist: Examination of magnetization of some ingenious rocks indicates that the polarity of the earth has been completely reversed within geological times.​

A flyby of a comet would not halt the rotation of the earth, nor would it restart the rotation if the earth's rotation were stopped for some other reason.

The earth's magnetic orientation has reversed many times in our geological past. One can read this reversing in the seafloor of the Atlantic Ocean, which is being continously created by plate tectonics (but only an inch or so per year). The last reversal was way before Joshua's long day, by the way.