My Raisin Bread Challenge

AV1611VET · Oct 29, 2022

God creates a loaf of nice warm raisin bread in an instant.

Is that an act of deception, since:

it's warm
it has dried grapes

Note: This challenge is my second favorite challenge I've ever made here.

Like my Apple Challenge, which shows an act of creatio ex materia leaves no evidence behind; this challenge shows how an act of creation with embedded age (maturity without history) can't be considered deceptive.

Citizen of the Kingdom · Oct 29, 2022

AV1611VET said:
God creates a loaf of nice warm raisin bread in an instant.

Is that an act of deception, since:

it's warm

it has dried grapes

Note: This challenge is my second favorite challenge I've ever made here.

Like my Apple Challenge, which shows an act of creatio ex materia leaves no evidence behind; this challenge shows how an act of creation with embedded age (maturity without history) can't be considered deceptive.

To a Nazarite it would be a blasphemy

AV1611VET · Oct 29, 2022

Citizen of the Kingdom said:
To a Nazarite it would be a blasphemy.

Say what?

Citizen of the Kingdom · Oct 29, 2022

AV1611VET said:
Say what?

A nazarite according to ot law was not to eat grapes or raisens so the challenge would be obsolete therefore.

SelfSim · Oct 29, 2022

Citizen of the Kingdom said:
To a Nazarite it would be a blasphemy

.. thus endeth this particular 'challenge' ...

Derf · Oct 29, 2022

AV1611VET said:
God creates a loaf of nice warm raisin bread in an instant.

Is that an act of deception, since:

it's warm

it has dried grapes

Note: This challenge is my second favorite challenge I've ever made here.

Like my Apple Challenge, which shows an act of creatio ex materia leaves no evidence behind; this challenge shows how an act of creation with embedded age (maturity without history) can't be considered deceptive.

I just had some toasted banana bread with pecans. It was warm, and the nuts were already shelled when I got them, fortunately. Yes, it would be interesting for such to appear in an instant. Perhaps the miracle of Cana equates to this, but it was still something (water) prior to it becoming wine. Your scenario, while interesting, is not a common one, even in the bible. Oil continuing to pour from an oil jar in Elisha's time is similar, but not quite the same--almost as if God hid some of the mechanism of creating oil in the jar. Jesus multiplied the bread and fishes, but He still started with bread and fishes. I'm not saying He can't do it, but your hypothetical isn't really like anything in the bible I can think of.

AV1611VET · Oct 29, 2022

Citizen of the Kingdom said:
A nazarite according to ot law was not to eat grapes or raisens so the challenge would be obsolete therefore.

Oh, okay.

I didn't know that.

AV1611VET · Oct 29, 2022

Derf said:
I just had some toasted banana bread with pecans.

Yum!

With a cup of coffee? (_)?

Derf · Oct 29, 2022

AV1611VET said:
Yum!

With a cup of coffee? (_)?

Slathered with butter.

AV1611VET · Oct 29, 2022

Derf said:
Slathered with butter.

Nice!

Bungle_Bear · Oct 30, 2022

AV1611VET said:
this challenge shows how an act of creation with embedded age (maturity without history) can't be considered deceptive.

No, it doesn't unless you change the definition of deceptive.

driewerf · Oct 30, 2022

AV1611VET said:
God creates a loaf of nice warm raisin bread in an instant.

Is that an act of deception, since:

it's warm

it has dried grapes

Note: This challenge is my second favorite challenge I've ever made here.

Like my Apple Challenge, which shows an act of creatio ex materia leaves no evidence behind; this challenge shows how an act of creation with embedded age (maturity without history) can't be considered deceptive.

In an imaginary world where gods create whatever they want everything is possible.
Science on the contrary deals with the real world and is bound by the testable and observable.
This kind of threads is nice Spielerei, but any extrapolation to the real world would be invalid.

AV1611VET · Oct 30, 2022

driewerf said:
In an imaginary world where gods create whatever they want everything is possible.
Science on the contrary deals with the real world and is bound by the testable and observable.
This kind of threads is nice Spielerei, but any extrapolation to the real world would be invalid.

You can't tell a deception, unless it's in the real world?

Was the Big Bad Wolf being deceptive to Little Red Riding Hood?

SelfSim · Oct 30, 2022

AV1611VET said:
You can't tell a deception, unless it's in the real world?

Was the Big Bad Wolf being deceptive to Little Red Riding Hood?

Just like gravity can be a fictitious force, so too can the Big Bad Wolf's deceptions, also be fictitious.

There I go .. thus demonstrating @Bungle_Bear's previous point ..

Bungle_Bear · Oct 31, 2022

AV1611VET said:
You can't tell a deception, unless it's in the real world?

Was the Big Bad Wolf being deceptive to Little Red Riding Hood?

Would you care to define deception/deceptive for us? You seem to be using multiple different definitions depending what you're talking about.

AV1611VET · Oct 31, 2022

Bungle_Bear said:
Would you care to define deception/deceptive for us?

No.

It's the word you guys use, when you say He would be deceptive if He created the universe with embedded age in it.

Despite the fact that I point out He documented what He did, when He did it, how He did it, what order He did it in, where He did it, how long it took Him to do it, why it took Him that long, and who the eyewitnesses were.

I'm trying to find out if you guys think He couldn't create a simple loaf of warm raising bread -- (let alone an entire universe) -- without being accused of being deceptive.

Bungle_Bear · Oct 31, 2022

AV1611VET said:
No.

It's the word you guys use, when you say He would be deceptive if He created the universe with embedded age in it.

In those instances we are using the generally accepted definition:

"giving an appearance or impression different from the true one; misleading."

When you say God is not deceptive by making something that appears to be other than it is (a 6,000 year old Earth which appears to be >4 billion years old) you are using a different definition. It would be helpful if you could let us know what that is so we can tell you if we agree.

Despite the fact that I point out He documented what He did, when He did it, how He did it, what order He did it in, where He did it, how long it took Him to do it, why it took Him that long, and who the eyewitnesses were.

Explaining how you perpetrated a deception does not mean you weren't being deceptive.

I'm trying to find out if you guys think He couldn't create a simple loaf of warm raising bread -- (let alone an entire universe) -- without being accused of being deceptive.

Using the definition above the answer is, and will remain, "no, that's deceptive".

Yttrium · Oct 31, 2022

AV1611VET said:
God creates a loaf of nice warm raisin bread in an instant.

Is that an act of deception, since:

it's warm

it has dried grapes

Note: This challenge is my second favorite challenge I've ever made here.

Like my Apple Challenge, which shows an act of creatio ex materia leaves no evidence behind; this challenge shows how an act of creation with embedded age (maturity without history) can't be considered deceptive.

I would say on the face of it that it's not deceptive. It's meant to be a loaf of raisin bread, and so it contains everything that's needed for us to recognize it as raisin bread.

But let's say that we dig into it and find the remains of a spider, which was created as part of the loaf. There would be no point for the spider remains to be there. It would represent an imaginary event of spider getting into the mix, dying, and being baked into the loaf. That would be deceptive.

Similarly, we find events scattered in the Earth that would have to be imaginary if the Earth had been created relatively recently.

Bungle_Bear · Oct 31, 2022

Yttrium said:
I would say on the face of it that it's not deceptive. It's meant to be a loaf of raisin bread, and so it contains everything that's needed for us to recognize it as raisin bread.

You don't consider it deceptive that there was no baking required? No raising of the dough? No milling of flour, no growing the wheat to mill? No drying of grapes?

I have a bridge you may be interested in buying....

AV1611VET · Oct 31, 2022

Bungle_Bear said:
You don't consider it deceptive that there was no baking required? No raising of the dough? No milling of flour, no growing the wheat to mill? No drying of grapes?

I have a bridge you may be interested in buying....

So when Jesus fed the 5000, was that an act of deception? or a miracle?

My Raisin Bread Challenge

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