My questions

[Key]

I'm trying to figure out whether you were being sarchastic here or whether you genuinely believe I have wonderful responses.

Your responces are well thought out and not attacking, you seem to be seeking an answer to questions, not just here to debate, this you have wonderful responces, that both make people think, and show that you yourself are thinking. It truly is a blessing to see this.

Very good point. Jesus expects us to ask him for forgiveness, so it should be the same when it comes to others. So therefore I can agree now that he is not expecting us to forgive unconditionally. If only most other Christians looked at it that way. I've heard many Christians going on about how we are to forgive unconditionally, but from memory have not heard that argument.

The unconditional part stems from the idea that if someone asks for our forgiveness, we are not to say “I’ll forgive you if (Insert List of Obligations)”.

Ask and you are forgiven.

I have edited my original post at the beginning of this thread as I will happily concede that one.

I will then have to take the time to re-read what you have changed, this might be a grand journey on discovery for us both.

I reject the idea of an Eternal Hell. And I think you reject it too based on your comments so far. I only really put my last two questions on the list there to help convince myself there is no eternal hell and to challenge those who do. If someone wants to try to convince me hell is eternal suffering, then I will gladly debate it.

I too struggle with this idea, not because I believe Eternal Hell of this morally wrong nature, but because I accept that we do not know the final out come of what Hell really is. Some will say it is eternal, others will say it is not.

I could discuss each point, but in the end, I know God is Just, and by that, I know what ever Hell is, or however long anyone might remain there, it is Just.

But more to the point, however, I would like to talk with you about Sin, and Hell and it’s correlation.

Hell is not a “Correctional Facility” were we are to be “Punished for our Sins”, I believe this is a fault by many teachers to view it as such, however this view stems from taking what we know and trying to apply it God, as if we seek to make God into a Human and seek to try and confine God into Human terms.

This is something I would like to discuss with you, if you are willing, because I believe it to be an integral part of the understanding of Hell, and why anyone would “Go There”

We might even be able to resurrect your Robot analogy, if that works for you.

How about the issue regarding amputations? Why do you think we see minor healings and hear of miraculous healings, but yet God never seems to want to restore people's limbs?

This is really a fun question, I have seen it before, but for the life of me I do not think I have seen a fully explained answer.

Let me try to help you with this a little.

First off, we are talking about a long time ago, and many great and amazing advancements in Medical technology. This plays a major role as we carry on.

If Some on had lost a major limb (Leg, Arm, Etc) in battle, or combat, they were dead, via Blood Loss, or just shock from the blow, they were dead. Medical attention (As poor as medicine was back then, it was still a far distance away from most, if not all people, many non-city dwellers had the Rabbi, and that was it) However if by some major occurrence they survive the initial loss of limb, there was still a very real danger of infection due to what we would consider today as unhygienic living conditions, and that would most likely would kill off any further chance of survival. So war or combat amputees were just not around.

People Born with deformities, died. Sad as this may seem, if you could not “Survive” then you did not survive. They did not have allowance for people born with such problems, there was no Red Cross, or any form of “Help” for these people. Sad, but it was just the way of life. Thus, we need to eliminate people born with out limbs.

We do hear that “Jesus healed a great many” those sick, lame, etc, could those missing limbs be counted among the “Lame”? Yes, they could.

So it is likely they Jesus did heal people missing limbs, however, they were just “John Doe 178450” in the long list of people that Jesus had healed. He healed the masses, running a literal infirmary in every home he stayed in.

So although we do not get a “Description” of his healing a person with out limbs, that does not mean he did not do it.

I'm now trying to think of an issue that hasn't been done to death already on this thread that is on that list. I'm looking forward to getting into the apologetics forum and debating there on these and many other issues besides.

Asides from some overflowing hostility, you are not missing much.

I hope I have provided you an answer to your questions.

God Bless

Key

 

[Key]

I would like to say, what a powerful Question! I hope that I can provide you insight.

I find it hard to feel as though mankind is culpable for this. After all God sent his son down to be killed, to be the perfect sacrifice. Why he really needed to go to those sort of lengths to forgive sin is a mystery, but those were his intentions. So if Christ hadn’t been killed, then God’s plan would have failed.

These are things I never would have dared to even think about when I was a committed Christian.

In the opposite direction, I needed an answer to this before I became a Christian. Funny how that works.

Jesus Died on the Cross, to show us first hand, how important we are to God. That God almighty would come down to us, to walk with us, and finally die so that we could enter Heaven.

This was not some lame cow offering, so show us the “Weight of Sin” this was Jesus the Christ, son of God Almighty, who came down, and said “I love you, and I will forgive you so that you can enter Heaven to be with my Father, and I will die on this Cross so that you can see the weight of Sin, and so that you can enter Heaven”

Jesus knew the outcome, he knew what he was to do, so did God. This was not done to “make an angry God happy” but to show the world, first hand, Gods Love for us, and the cost of Sin in our lives.

Jesus sacrificed himself (He was not Sacrificed by anyone else) so that we could see thet God was willing to do this for us.

Humm I am not explaining this a well as I had hoped.

But I hope I have provided you an answer to this Question.

God Bless

Key

 

[OnceConvinced]

Forgive. Yes. Doesn't mean you are not still in pain- doesn't mean you don't press charges.

You can forgive a person and still seek the death penalty. I see absolutely no contradiction here at all.

Admittedly I am playing "Devil's advocate" a little here (after all that is an extreme situation and something very serious to us humans), but.....

God will forgive us and wipe the slate clean. He will not hold us accountable for our sins. So if we are to forgive, just as God forgives us, doesn't that mean we shouldn't be holding them accountable for their sins?

I like what Key said about the fact that with God we have to ask for forgiveness before he forgives us. So there for it is necessary for offenders to ask us for forgiveness before we actually have to forgive them. Do you agree with that? And if so, if this criminal we are talking about begged you for forgiveness would you still demand he be put on trial?

I'm for the death penalty- if a man purposefully takes the life of another, his own life should be taken.

I agree with you on that one.

 

[OnceConvinced]

As far as the adulterous woman is concerned-

How did these men catch the woman in the very act???

You think that as death being the punishment, she would have paraded her adulterous behavior where she could be caught? If so, she sounds a bit suicidal.

The only other option is that she was baited. Some where, somone either knew about it, was monitering it, and was waiting to pounce- or someone decieved her into the act (maybe by building up a false relationship, etc)

BIG red flag here- Acording to the Law, the MAN and the woman were both to be brought out and stoned. WHERE was the man?

Was it an accident that he was not there also? Did John just skip over that part?

The absence of the Male adulter would be a big red flag to anyone in the Jewish community of that time. It would be, at the most, proof of a set-up... and at the least, judged an unfair trial- and the accused would be set free.

We can conjucture about this till the cows come home, but anyone can be caught in the act, without the person catching them having been guilty of the same thing. Who's to say what the situation is with her. Was she a simple adultress or a prostitute? If she was a simple adultress, then sure there would have been a guilty male involved as well, but who knows where he was when this incident occurred.We don't know. Unfortunately back in those days woman seemed to get a raw deal compared to the ment.

People don't have to parade their adultress behavoir around to be found guilty of it. All it may have taken was one person with some sway to accuse her of it and next thing everyone wants her to face punishment. Once again we don't know. Some of the crowd may have been guilty of not giving her a fair trial, some may have been guilty of gossiping or even lying, some may have been guilty of setting her up even. There are many different possibilities here, so to say that the crowd there were all guilty of adultry is a real stretch.

But really when it comes down to it, it's not about what they did. It was about the fact that they were judging this woman, which is really what Jesus was unhappy about. They were playing judge, jury and executioner, which was not their job.

 

[OnceConvinced]

Your responces are well thought out and not attacking, you seem to be seeking an answer to questions, not just here to debate, this you have wonderful responces, that both make people think, and show that you yourself are thinking. It truly is a blessing to see this.

Wow thanks! I appreciate your kind words. I think I did come across as a little attacking in my first post, which was probably what got Calmanian on the back foot. I dare say that posts like that are often ones from people just here to try to mock Christianity. Also I took issues at random, things that came to mind when I wrote the first post. So that probably didn't help.

But more to the point, however, I would like to talk with you about Sin, and Hell and it’s correlation.

Hell is not a “Correctional Facility” were we are to be “Punished for our Sins”, I believe this is a fault by many teachers to view it as such, however this view stems from taking what we know and trying to apply it God, as if we seek to make God into a Human and seek to try and confine God into Human terms.

This is something I would like to discuss with you, if you are willing, because I believe it to be an integral part of the understanding of Hell, and why anyone would “Go There”

We might even be able to resurrect your Robot analogy, if that works for you.

Sure. I'm happy to discuss this. Actually I don't think hell is a correctional facility either, because once it's over I always believed - that was it. There will be no heaven after and there will be no second chances to prove yourself again. This life is it.

Throughout most of my Christian life, I took the bible at face value and believed that if you didn't accept Jesus as your savior then that's what got you to hell. There was no other way to God, but through him. But as I got older that troubled me a lot when I saw all these other religions with people sincere and fervent in their beliefs. And of course there are all those people who never hear that gospel. So I felt I could no longer debate that Jesus was the only way to God. Because it meant sending too many people to hell in my own mind. So when ever anybody asked me whether I thought they were going to hell all I said was "I have no idea. That's between you and God".

First off, we are talking about a long time ago, and many great and amazing advancements in Medical technology. This plays a major role as we carry on.

If Some on had lost a major limb (Leg, Arm, Etc) in battle, or combat, they were dead, via Blood Loss, or just shock from the blow, they were dead. Medical attention (As poor as medicine was back then, it was still a far distance away from most, if not all people, many non-city dwellers had the Rabbi, and that was it) However if by some major occurrence they survive the initial loss of limb, there was still a very real danger of infection due to what we would consider today as unhygienic living conditions, and that would most likely would kill off any further chance of survival. So war or combat amputees were just not around.

People Born with deformities, died. Sad as this may seem, if you could not “Survive” then you did not survive. They did not have allowance for people born with such problems, there was no Red Cross, or any form of “Help” for these people. Sad, but it was just the way of life. Thus, we need to eliminate people born with out limbs.

We do hear that “Jesus healed a great many” those sick, lame, etc, could those missing limbs be counted among the “Lame”? Yes, they could.

So it is likely they Jesus did heal people missing limbs, however, they were just “John Doe 178450” in the long list of people that Jesus had healed. He healed the masses, running a literal infirmary in every home he stayed in.

So although we do not get a “Description” of his healing a person with out limbs, that does not mean he did not do it.

Yes, I do agree that Jesus may have heeled some limbless people when it came to the lame.

I guess a real problem is that we don't see this sort of thing now. I never thought about God healing amputees. I have come across that question asked by a lot of athiests and the like recently, so no doubt it's a question that's been around for a while. But a very good one, because when I think of all the stories of healing I have heard, I have never heard of an amputee being healed.

I guess the underlying reason I asked this question was because of the lack of miraculous healings we see full stop. All I ever here is stories, but never see any. I even hear of resurrections happening over seas. But none in my country. But yet the bible promises that we should see healings and demons being cast out. But we don't. Further more I have come to doubt a lot of the stories I have heard. Mainly because that's all they are stories and we don't see proof of these things.

But one of the big things for me was we had this faith healer, Christian Evangelist guy called Bill Subritzky doing the rounds in NZ. There were these crazy rumours going around that at his crusades miraculous healings took place regularly. That once even a black cloud hovered over the building he was holding his crusades in. There were stories of demon possessed people sliding up walls.

When I finally got the chance to go to one of these meetings I was really excited. But they were very humdrum occassions. The only really interesting thing was his ability to pull out people from specific rows with specific problems. Which really when you think about it, probably isn't that remarkable. I never witness any healings or casting out of demons in any of his meetings I went to. And he also said once not to expect the remarkable things that people claimed went on in his meetings.

But in all the years I have been in church. All the praying that has been done. I have never seen any healing more remarkable than a cold getting better. That was me by the way. I used spiritual warfare against it and it went. I figure it was just mind over matter now.

 

[OnceConvinced]

I would like to say, what a powerful Question! I hope that I can provide you insight.



In the opposite direction, I needed an answer to this before I became a Christian. Funny how that works.

Jesus Died on the Cross, to show us first hand, how important we are to God. That God almighty would come down to us, to walk with us, and finally die so that we could enter Heaven.

This was not some lame cow offering, so show us the “Weight of Sin” this was Jesus the Christ, son of God Almighty, who came down, and said “I love you, and I will forgive you so that you can enter Heaven to be with my Father, and I will die on this Cross so that you can see the weight of Sin, and so that you can enter Heaven”

Jesus knew the outcome, he knew what he was to do, so did God. This was not done to “make an angry God happy” but to show the world, first hand, Gods Love for us, and the cost of Sin in our lives.

Jesus sacrificed himself (He was not Sacrificed by anyone else) so that we could see thet God was willing to do this for us.

Humm I am not explaining this a well as I had hoped.

Actually one point you made there stood out quite a bit and that's that he was trying to show us the seriousness of sin. If he had sent his pet dog down to earth to die for our sins, it wouldn't have had the same impact. lol. But seeing as it was his son, then people are going to realise just how serious sin is.

But you know, I can't help but keep coming back to one of my original arguments. That God made us with the sinful nature. It comes back to that darn robot analogy, where God knew we were going to sin and break his heart, but he decided to create us with a free will anyway. Even worse, because he was omnipotent, he knew which of us were going to reject him and go to hell, but he still allowed us to be born.

Another thought. Why is sin so repellent to God? I know he is a divine and holy being, but he is also supposed to be omnipotent and all powerful, so why can't he be where sin is?

Actually that may be why God doesn't appear to do much here on Earth. It's so full of sin that it sort of repels him away and he can't come near us. Perhaps if you were to be able to bottle sin, it could be used as God Repellent (I'm only saying that tongue in cheek, but it does make you wonder)

 

[Key]

Wow thanks! I appreciate your kind words. I think I did come across as a little attacking in my first post, which was probably what got Calmanian on the back foot. I dare say that posts like that are often ones from people just here to try to mock Christianity. Also I took issues at random, things that came to mind when I wrote the first post. So that probably didn't help.

You did come off a bit "fight like" when you started, which is why I responded as I did, however, as our discussion progressed, you seem to have grown a great deal, and that is an amazing thing to witness.

Sure. I'm happy to discuss this. Actually I don't think hell is a correctional facility either, because once it's over I always believed - that was it. There will be no heaven after and there will be no second chances to prove yourself again. This life is it.

Throughout most of my Christian life, I took the bible at face value and believed that if you didn't accept Jesus as your savior then that's what got you to hell. There was no other way to God, but through him. But as I got older that troubled me a lot when I saw all these other religions with people sincere and fervent in their beliefs. And of course there are all those people who never hear that gospel. So I felt I could no longer debate that Jesus was the only way to God. Because it meant sending too many people to hell in my own mind. So when ever anybody asked me whether I thought they were going to hell all I said was "I have no idea. That's between you and God".

A question nags at me in the back of my head here, when I read this, and I wonder, did you take the bible at face value (IE: You read the bible like it was written yesterday), or did you just accept what others told you the bible said?

Yes, I do agree that Jesus may have heeled some limbless people when it came to the lame.

I guess a real problem is that we don't see this sort of thing now. I never thought about God healing amputees. I have come across that question asked by a lot of athiests and the like recently, so no doubt it's a question that's been around for a while. But a very good one, because when I think of all the stories of healing I have heard, I have never heard of an amputee being healed.

I guess the underlying reason I asked this question was because of the lack of miraculous healings we see full stop. All I ever here is stories, but never see any. I even hear of resurrections happening over seas. But none in my country. But yet the bible promises that we should see healings and demons being cast out. But we don't. Further more I have come to doubt a lot of the stories I have heard. Mainly because that's all they are stories and we don't see proof of these things.

But one of the big things for me was we had this faith healer, Christian Evangelist guy called Bill Subritzky doing the rounds in NZ. There were these crazy rumours going around that at his crusades miraculous healings took place regularly. That once even a black cloud hovered over the building he was holding his crusades in. There were stories of demon possessed people sliding up walls.

When I finally got the chance to go to one of these meetings I was really excited. But they were very humdrum occassions. The only really interesting thing was his ability to pull out people from specific rows with specific problems. Which really when you think about it, probably isn't that remarkable. I never witness any healings or casting out of demons in any of his meetings I went to. And he also said once not to expect the remarkable things that people claimed went on in his meetings.

But in all the years I have been in church. All the praying that has been done. I have never seen any healing more remarkable than a cold getting better. That was me by the way. I used spiritual warfare against it and it went. I figure it was just mind over matter now.

This was never a problem for me, but that might be because I travel a diffrent path then you.

I believe the major reason for this is because of Jesus.

I almost imagine God in heaven looking down on us as we pray going "God show me you are there!" and God says "Umm wasn't my son enough?"

Also, do I need to see God split the Sky to know he is there? Well I never did, because of little things.

I guess it's like, "Some believe in Luck, I believe in God" type of thing.

It's really the simple things that show me God is around, That God no longer needs to speak from a mega phone in the sky, but sends the Holy Spirit to guide us, and before Christ, this Holy Spirit did not come to his people, devotion was based on Gods Presence, not Gods Comfort.

I see Jesus as the turning point, God did not change, our relationship with Him did.

God Bless

Key

 

[Kalanit]

God will forgive us and wipe the slate clean. He will not hold us accountable for our sins. So if we are to forgive, just as God forgives us, doesn't that mean we shouldn't be holding them accountable for their sins?

Hey- G-d forgives us- but He also allows us to experience the consequences of our actions. There were 2 theives hanging on the execution stake with Yeshua. Did Yeshua say to the one, "Alright, you are forgiven, poof- you are healed, now hop of this stake and run home." Nope. What is done- is done. Eternally, you are forgiven. But you must walk out the consequences here on earth.

If Nations did not hold people accountable for their "sins" we would live in chaos. G-d established governments to establish Order on earth. You reap what you sow. It's that simple.

I like what Key said about the fact that with God we have to ask for forgiveness before he forgives us. So there for it is necessary for offenders to ask us for forgiveness before we actually have to forgive them. Do you agree with that? And if so, if this criminal we are talking about begged you for forgiveness would you still demand he be put on trial?

If the offender spit in your face, you'd still be required to forgive him. If he was truly repentant, and begged for forgiveness, you'd still forgive him. And either way- you'd press charges, and persue the death penalty.

Say a convict on death row becomes a believer- should that person get off the death penalty because they've repented? Absolutely NOT! You break the rule- you experience the consequences. You murder someone in clod blood- you have your life taken as well - be you repentant or not.

Our forgiving others is not based on that other person whatsoever. It is based on our own sins being forgiven by G-d. Forgiveness is not an emotion. It's an action. It doesn't have qualifiers- "I'll forgive IF" You are simply called to forgive- to let it go- to release the negativity you are holding within yourself because of that offender. You must release that person in your mind- in your heart. This forgiveness has nothing to do with Just Consequences.

In fact- if you forgive someone who has done great evil to you- and you do not press charges because you "forgive" him- and he is set free and murders again- then YOU are partially responsible for the second murder. You could have put an end to the evil- but in the name of "forgiveness" (which would be a perversion of grace and mercy) you let the man go. Now he is free to destroy other lives. That is a sin of omission.

 

[LoveABull]

Wow, Good stuff here!

Loveabull

 

[Key]

God will forgive us and wipe the slate clean. He will not hold us accountable for our sins. So if we are to forgive, just as God forgives us, doesn't that mean we shouldn't be holding them accountable for their sins?

If you break the law of the Land or Goverment, you are accountable for that transgresson of the Law.

But to seek humbly forgivness and realize your error of your ways, also takes into account a desire to "Set Right" what you have done.

I like what Key said about the fact that with God we have to ask for forgiveness before he forgives us. So there for it is necessary for offenders to ask us for forgiveness before we actually have to forgive them. Do you agree with that? And if so, if this criminal we are talking about begged you for forgiveness would you still demand he be put on trial?

I agree with you on that one.

I also know that we as a culture of people do not fully grasp what the seeking for forgivness involves, it is far more then simply saying "I'm Sorry" there needs to be a repentence, a desire to correct and make amends for your actions.

You must change, not because any one else demands it of you, but because you demand it of you to be truly seeking and worthy of forgivness.

I might be wording this poorly, but I hope I have gotten this point across.

God Bless

Key

 

[Kalanit]

"who knows where he was when this incident occurred"

Ok, if the woman was caught in the very act of adultery, then, uh, the man would still have to be "attached" to her. I've never seen a person committing physical adultery all by his/her self!

Actually, being Judge was their job- to an extent. If they knew of adultery taking place they had to address it- bring it before the court. According to the Law, if a woman is found in adultery, both the man and the woman are to be stoned.

First, you had to have a certain number of witnesses to even bring up a matter before the court. Second, if the woman was caught in the very act, that means there was a man that had to be brought before the court as well.

If the adulterous man was not there (and it appears he was not because only the woman was to be condemned)- the case against the woman would be invalid. And if the man WAS there- it would have to be one of the accusers themselves- which makes them just as guilty, even if they were only trying to "catch her in the act".

In trying to trap Yeshua, they themselves violated Torah- which makes their accusation insanely hypocritical.

 

[OnceConvinced]

A question nags at me in the back of my head here, when I read this, and I wonder, did you take the bible at face value (IE: You read the bible like it was written yesterday), or did you just accept what others told you the bible said?

As a young Christian I was indoctronated to believe that the bible was the infallible word of God. I didn't believe it was "written yesterday", but I did believe it was all true. And yes I did tend to listen to what any adult Christian in charge told me. In Sunday School I took the teacher's word for everything. In Church I took what ever the pastor said in the pulpit as true. One pastor said when I was a young teen that massage was demonic. So for a while I believed that. But then as I became an adult I realised that it was ok to have my own opinions. And it was ok to question what I was being told. And I started to look for my own answers to issues in scripture. Then as I started to become a mature adult, I also started to allow myself to become cynical and critical about things.

I almost imagine God in heaven looking down on us as we pray going "God show me you are there!" and God says "Umm wasn't my son enough?"

For most people obviously not. Especially considering that all we have is some written accounts that were not even written by the people who were there at the time and there are differences between the accounts. Add to that the fact that the disciples doubted him at times and at other times couldn't understand him. And of course one of them betrayed him. Even whether Jesus fitted the prophesies of the OT 100% is still under debate. The Hebrew Jews who know the original Hebrew texts best, reject that and that's saying something.

Also, do I need to see God split the Sky to know he is there? Well I never did, because of little things.

I don't either. But scriptures do promise that Christians will heal and cast out demons in his name. All I ask God for is a fresh touch from him, or a sense of his presence, which we are told as Christians we should do and he will honour those prayers.

The simple things around definitely tell me there is a God, but not necessarily a Christian God. More of a Deist type of God.

 

[OnceConvinced]

Hey- G-d forgives us- but He also allows us to experience the consequences of our actions. There were 2 theives hanging on the execution stake with Yeshua. Did Yeshua say to the one, "Alright, you are forgiven, poof- you are healed, now hop of this stake and run home." Nope. What is done- is done. Eternally, you are forgiven. But you must walk out the consequences here on earth.

I agree there should be consequences on Earth. But what I am talking about is God's judgement. I tried to use the analogy of a court to support my arguments.

God no longer holds things against us if we ask for his forgiveness. We may still have to suffer consequences on earth, but those are earthly consequences and not necessarily put on us by God. I think it is questionable that after forgiving us, God himself would cause us to undergo trouble as a result. That would show that God hasn't truly forgiven us. You reap what you sew, is also an earthly principal, an inescapable fact of life.

If the offender spit in your face, you'd still be required to forgive him. If he was truly repentant, and begged for forgiveness, you'd still forgive him. And either way- you'd press charges, and persue the death penalty.

Say a convict on death row becomes a believer- should that person get off the death penalty because they've repented? Absolutely NOT! You break the rule- you experience the consequences. You murder someone in clod blood- you have your life taken as well - be you repentant or not.

I agree he should get the death penalty, but then I am not God and I have not set the rule that we should wipe the slate clean when we forgive someone. God set that rule. Justice is for God to serve, not us.

I agree that letting such a terrible person go free is an abominable thought to a human. And it is! But even a child molesting murderer can avoid hell and go to heaven if he repents and asks God for forgiveness. Like it or not! He may have some consequences to face on earth, but when it comes down to it, he is perfect in God's eye and will be welcomed to heaven with open arms. So we have to forgive God as he forgives us. When we forgive, we give up the right to punish them, just as God did. Seems horrible, I agree.

In fact- if you forgive someone who has done great evil to you- and you do not press charges because you "forgive" him- and he is set free and murders again- then YOU are partially responsible for the second murder. You could have put an end to the evil- but in the name of "forgiveness" (which would be a perversion of grace and mercy) you let the man go. Now he is free to destroy other lives. That is a sin of omission.

I know. It's abominable to you? It is to me as well, I'd do my darndest to get that guy the death penalty. But God will forgive that guy and not demand his life as payment. People like that will be with you in heaven one day if they repent and ask God for forgiveness.

 

[OnceConvinced]

Ok, I've ran out of time for now, but I will be back to reply to those other posts.

 

[OnceConvinced]

I think I have come full circle with the issue regarding God requiring us to forgive unconditionally. After debating with Kalanit, I can see that God's forgiveness is a lot more graceful than Man's - if we are to go along with what she is saying. (And I'm not saying she is wrong)

The issue I still have is more to do with God’s conditions now. Is it reasonable for God to expect us to accept him as his saviour, love him and obey his commandments?

If you are looking at just the rewards, then yes, heaven is no doubt a pretty good incentive. But it’s not just about positive reinforcement. It’s about negative reinforcement. Because when it comes to the issue of hell, then the question becomes: is it reasonable for God to demand that we believe him, accept him as our saviour, love him and obey his commandments or he will throw us into hell (possibly even for eternity)? This is an obvious threat. A very nasty threat.

Imagine if someone abducted you and then ordered you to love and obey him and to believe everything he says, to worship him as your God, or else he will slit your throat. How is that reasonable?

 

[Kalanit]

When we forgive we do not give up the right to administer punishment.

I can forgive- and I can press charges- and the offender can get the death penalty- and he can repent- and he can be with G-d after his life here on earth is extinguished.

Only G-d has the ability to see into a persion's heart and descide what place at His table the man is to sit. Some humans are in a higher place in heaven than others. The Bible does not teach that those who experience salvation 10 minutes before they die get the same rewards or privledges as those who have served G-d faithfully for 70 years.

But God will forgive that guy and not demand his life as payment.

G-d absolutely WILL demand his life as payment! Maybe not his soul to burn in hell- but his life- YES.

 

[Kalanit]

I have never in my life felt that I was in a hostage situation when I felt compelled to obey G-d. And I have NEVER obeyed G-d because of Heaven.

I have a deep desire to KNOW Him- Whoever He is. And little by little He reveals more of Himself to me. And the more I see Him, the more I DELIGHT!!! in His instruction, correction, and fellowship.

I have never obeyed Him because I felt I must- I obeyed because I LOVE Him.

BIG difference.

BTW- When I was a child I went to churches that relied heavily on Guilt and Hell Fire sermons. And even through that 'religious conditioning' from an early age- I KNEW in my heart those people's theology was off. I WILLED to know G-d... and He showed me Himself.

 

[Key]

As a young Christian I was indoctronated to believe that the bible was the infallible word of God. I didn't believe it was "written yesterday", but I did believe it was all true. And yes I did tend to listen to what any adult Christian in charge told me. In Sunday School I took the teacher's word for everything. In Church I took what ever the pastor said in the pulpit as true. One pastor said when I was a young teen that massage was demonic. So for a while I believed that. But then as I became an adult I realised that it was ok to have my own opinions. And it was ok to question what I was being told. And I started to look for my own answers to issues in scripture. Then as I started to become a mature adult, I also started to allow myself to become cynical and critical about things.

Well this might be more enjoyable then I first thought, as I come from the other direction, having been born and raised in a church, at a young age I left, because I had questions and they had no answers. I was not about to accept that I was wrong for asking questions.

However, on person I met at church set me to understand something, because I was bent all out of shape after one person said once you become a Christian all your questions are answered, he said to me “Once you become a Christian that is when your questions start” and to this day, I still hold to that, I still ask questions and seek answers myself on these matters, so I have a little understanding of where you might be now.

I see also that you spent a great deal of your life just believing the words of man, and now when you find out that there might have been flaws it is very breaking to your faith. This might be the next great question I get to ask you.

Are the Flaws with what God said, or what you were taught “God said”, they may or may not be the same thing.

For most people obviously not.

I believe that this term “Most People” is used in a not appropriate way, as when you think about it, 76% of the people in the US claim to be Christian, so “Most People” would be incorrect when dealing with People in the US.

Near to one third of the world over believes in Christianity, and over two thirds of the world Believe in the teachings of Jesus. And many more sub-Philosophies following the teachings of Jesus and not giving him credit.

So, for the Majority of the World, Jesus is a powerful teacher, that they accept as a Divine messenger.

Thus to say “Most” people can never be correct unless you are dealing with just a small confined group of people. But to say Loosely, “Most People” would be a gross miscalculation of the reality of our world, and the influence of a Man called Jesus.

I say this only to enlighten you and maybe shed some light into this for you.

Especially considering that all we have is some written accounts that were not even written by the people who were there at the time and there are differences between the accounts. Add to that the fact that the disciples doubted him at times and at other times couldn't understand him. And of course one of them betrayed him. Even whether Jesus fitted the prophesies of the OT 100% is still under debate. The Hebrew Jews who know the original Hebrew texts best, reject that and that's saying something.

The Validity of the New Testament has been done to death, I am sad to say. I am sure if you wanted I could find some wonderful information regarding this however we do know that the Gospels as we have them today were written within 70 years of Jesus death, making them the most accurate ancient historical accounts that we posses. We also know that there were no conflicts that exist between them, that is a byproduct of failure of many proponents of the Scriptures to fail to understand the culture of that era, and how things were written. This is not scribal error we are talking about, it is the mistake that people make when they try to read the bible as if it was written yesterday, which sadly is a common mistake.

I don't either. But scriptures do promise that Christians will heal and cast out demons in his name. All I ask God for is a fresh touch from him, or a sense of his presence, which we are told as Christians we should do and he will honour those prayers.

God answers prayers, Not always how we expect him to, but he will answer our prayers, however, you should also note that Jesus says “do not ask (demand) for things from our heavenly Father, for he knows what you need before you do”.

We are to pray, but to pray for “his will to be done” in our lives, and I believe this leads to some disenchantment among people that expect God to come to their call, and do things as they want them done. A prayer is not a means by which we “Command” God to do our bidding, some people do mistake it as such. And I can see if one was to expect things to work like that, they would be let down, because God has directly said he will not work like that.

Our Father who is in heaven
Holy is your name
Your Kingdom Come
Your Will be Done
On Earth and in Heaven

There was no “And heal this man!”

The simple things around definitely tell me there is a God, but not necessarily a Christian God. More of a Deist type of God.

I could never accept a Deist god, that would demote me into an Ant in an Ant Farm.

God Almighty, placed Value on us, that is the mark and measure of a True Creator and Builder, to place Value on his Creations.

But that is just my View and take on things. I would like to find out why you would accept a Deist type god, as opposed to the Christian God.

God Bless

Key

 

[OnceConvinced]

"who knows where he was when this incident occurred"

Ok, if the woman was caught in the very act of adultery, then, uh, the man would still have to be "attached" to her. I've never seen a person committing physical adultery all by his/her self!

Actually, being Judge was their job- to an extent. If they knew of adultery taking place they had to address it- bring it before the court. According to the Law, if a woman is found in adultery, both the man and the woman are to be stoned.

First, you had to have a certain number of witnesses to even bring up a matter before the court. Second, if the woman was caught in the very act, that means there was a man that had to be brought before the court as well.

If the adulterous man was not there (and it appears he was not because only the woman was to be condemned)- the case against the woman would be invalid. And if the man WAS there- it would have to be one of the accusers themselves- which makes them just as guilty, even if they were only trying to "catch her in the act".

In trying to trap Yeshua, they themselves violated Torah- which makes their accusation insanely hypocritical.

Yes, there may have been a couple of witnesses there and the guilty man may have been there too. Who knows why he wasn't facing justice. The story doesn't say. You need to take issue with the writer as to why they didn't think it important to mention what was happening with the man in this scenario. The story does tell us though, the woman was being stoned. And it doesn't say that the entire crowd were adulterers themselves.

And yes, it may have been those people's job to uphold the law under Jewish customs, but Jesus came to earth to change that and in this case attempted to do so by telling them they had no right to judge her.

It seems by this discussion and our other discussion that you are maintaining that it is ok to judge as long as you aren't guilty of the same thing and that it's all right to seek justice for someone's offences. And that forgiveness is souly a thing of the mind, where you release our bitterness that you are harbouring.

My stance is that it is not ok to judge because we are all guilty of breaking God's law and sinning. That if we are to forgive someone, we should be willing to forgo punishing them and that forgiveness is ALSO a matter of releasing bitterness that you are harbouring.

If I'm right about your stance, then I guess we might have to agree to disagree on what forgiveness is.

By the way if someone killed one of my kids I'd never forgive them, even if they begged. So no, I definitely don't consider myself on par with God when it comes to forgiving people.

 

[OnceConvinced]

G-d absolutely WILL demand his life as payment! Maybe not his soul to burn in hell- but his life- YES.

When I said life, I mean't soul as well. I'm talking about at the end when Judgement Day comes, where God will make everyone pay for rejecting him.

You say that God will demand his life. (not soul). Are you talking about God taking his life right after he commits the crime? Or when he comes to the end of his life? Because obviously God does not demand the death penalty on Earth for all murderers. And if you are talking about when he comes to the end of his life, you can hardly say God was demanding his life. It was just his time to go.