My Question

coffee4u · Sep 23, 2019

The Bible also says not to judge a weaker brother who keeps days or eats certain foods. Romans 14
5One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. 6He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it.

Presbyterian Continuist · Sep 23, 2019

coffee4u said:
I don't think following the ten commandments will condemn any true believer to hell, but they are misguided and striving to do things that are not needed.

If a person is following the Ten Commandments in order to be saved and acceptable to God, then they are believing a false gospel, and are bringing a curse upon themselves. But a genuine believer will follow the Ten Commandments, not as rules in the rule book, but through the strength of the Holy Spirit in his heart.

This is why Paul said at the beginning of 1 Corinthians that he would not allow any person to judge him according to his conduct; and that he would not even judge himself, but he would leave all judgment to the Lord Jesus Christ who is his sole judge.

This means that any church, pastor, or anyone who tries to dictate how a believer should conduct himself, other than appropriate correction as prescribed by Scripture in occasions where a believer's conduct brings the church and/or the gospel of Christ into disrepute. For example, if a church member is going out every Friday night to a brothel and it becomes common knowledge that he is doing that, then the pastor and elders have the right to correct him, but it has to be done the way Jesus said. If the person is an elder of the church, then members have the right to rebuke him in public only after having three witnesses to attest to his misconduct.

The trouble is with many churches is that people's perceived faults are gossiped around the church and pastors have been known to excommunicate members from the pulpit in a Sunday service, mostly for the simple reason that the member has had disagreements with the pastor! Others have been criticised in Pentecostal churches because they don't speak in tongues, or a woman wearing trousers instead of a skirt or dress. Others have been criticised because of the wearing of jewellery, or having their hair cut in attractive styles. Each church has a set of "unwritten" commandments of their own, and only those who comply with them are accepted into the "central social circle" Others are excluded because they "don't come up to our standard of holiness", which, in fact, has nothing to do with the Ten Commandments at all!

Presbyterian Continuist · Sep 23, 2019

coffee4u said:
The Bible also says not to judge a weaker brother who keeps days or eats certain foods. Romans 14
5One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. 6He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it.

True...as long as he doesn't make observing holy days or the eating of certain foods as a prerequisite to salvation.

coffee4u · Sep 23, 2019

I am not talking about salvation, I am talking about people who are saved but are not understanding. Perhaps they have gone to a church that says this or perhaps they are reading the Old Testament and have misunderstood or just have it in mind from childhood teaching. I think there could be a variety of reasons why they think they need to follow the 10 commandments or follow the sabbath. I think they can be gently told and shown otherwise.

Presbyterian Continuist · Sep 23, 2019

coffee4u said:
I am not talking about salvation, I am talking about people who are saved but are not understanding. Perhaps they have gone to a church that says this or perhaps they are reading the Old Testament and have misunderstood or just have it in mind from childhood teaching. I think there could be a variety of reasons why they think they need to follow the 10 commandments or follow the sabbath. I think they can be gently told and shown otherwise.

If they went to a church where the true gospel of Christ was faithfully preached, they would have the understanding they needed.

Jonaitis · Sep 23, 2019

Michael Vichiola said:
There seems to be an ongoing debate about which day the sabbath is. I'm told it is Sunday, and then when I go do research, a good majority of it says Saturday. Now I'm having question marks bouncing around my head because I don't know whos right and whos wrong. If Jesus took the law with him to the cross, wouldn't that take away the sabbath? Or actually no wait... If the entire 10 commandments still apply to Christians, then why is the sabbath still Saturday? Isn't it Sunday? I am literally confused.

It use to be Friday evening to Saturday evening, following the pattern of the creation account ("then there was evening, then there was morning..."). From the time Adam was created until Jesus' resurrection it was always remembered like this. However, since Christ rose again on the first day of the week, and appeared to his disciples multiple times on the first day of the different weeks, and the early church met together on the first day of the week to fellowship, it was shown that the Sabbath rest was changed from Friday-Saturday to Sunday. We still carry on the tradition, regardless if you still believe in a Sabbath, that we are to separate ourselves from worldly activity (even if it is for three hours) to fellowship and worship God with each other, such activities the Jews did in the synagogues on the Sabbath.

Michael Vichiola · Sep 23, 2019

But then if we're still obliged to obey the 10 commandments (Majority of people think that) which ones do we keep? If the sabbath is still included, then why aren't Christians doing it? Explain this to me.

charsan · Sep 23, 2019

Michael Vichiola said:
But then if we're still obliged to obey the 10 commandments (Majority of people think that) which ones do we keep? If the sabbath is still included, then why aren't Christians doing it? Explain this to me.

You don't obey the 10 unless your a jew. God gave them to the jew not gentiles, now for us:

37 Jesus answered, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the greatest and the most important commandment. 39 The second most important commandment is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as you love yourself.’ 40 The whole Law of Moses and the teachings of the prophets depend on these two commandments.”

Matt 22:37-40 GNT

We hear that every Sunday and for Christians Sunday matters. One would not even know when the Jewish Sabbath is because we do not use their ancient calendar

coffee4u · Sep 23, 2019

Michael Vichiola said:
But then if we're still obliged to obey the 10 commandments (Majority of people think that) which ones do we keep? If the sabbath is still included, then why aren't Christians doing it? Explain this to me.

Because we are not obligated to keep the 10 commandments or the sabbath. The majority of Christians do not think that.
That would be like quoting an old law which has already been overturned and saying we should be keeping it.

Presbyterian Continuist · Sep 23, 2019

coffee4u said:
Because we are not obligated to keep the 10 commandments or the sabbath. The majority of Christians do not think that.
That would be like quoting an old law which has already been overturned and saying we should be keeping it.

This is why Paul wrote the book of Galatians, to give the churches in Galatia a good telling off for allowing them to be bewitched by the Judaizers who insisted that new gentile believers should be circumcised and keep the Mosaic Law in order to be saved. Those who teach observance of the law as a set of rulebook rules bring the curse of God upon themselves and will end up in hell and will be condemning to hell anyone who accepts their teaching.

Joy · Sep 26, 2019

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BobRyan · Sep 26, 2019

Michael Vichiola said:
There seems to be an ongoing debate about which day the sabbath is. I'm told it is Sunday, and then when I go do research, a good majority of it says Saturday. Now I'm having question marks bouncing around my head because I don't know whos right and whos wrong. If Jesus took the law with him to the cross, wouldn't that take away the sabbath? Or actually no wait... If the entire 10 commandments still apply to Christians, then why is the sabbath still Saturday? Isn't it Sunday? I am literally confused.

(almost) All major Christian denominations will freely admit that the Sabbath of the 4th commandment as given by God at Sinai - and as established in Gen 2:1-3 is the day of the week for what we today call "saturday".

(almost) All major Christian denominations will freely admit that Jesus was raised on the "first day of the week" which is the day of the week we call Sunday.

There is almost no debate at all about that fact.

All major Christian denominations will freely admit that every time you find someone in a worship service on "the Sabbath" in the -- it is Saturday.

Even on this board where almost everything is debated - those points are not

Every Christian scholar ever quoted on this board will agree that phrase "Christian Sabbath" used to refer to week-day-1 is not found in the Bible OT or NT.

=========================

When I says "almost all" I am simply saying "all but maybe there is some obscure small group that is unknown to me at the time that might not agree".

=======================

So then on those points above - these groups agree.

The Baptist Confession of Faith,
the Westminster Confession of Faith ,
D.L. Moody,
R.C Sproul,
Matthew Henry,
Thomas Watson
Eastern Orthodox Catechism
The Catholic Catechism.

And of course 7th day groups

Seventh-day Baptists
Seventh-day Adventists
(and 100's of others

BobRyan · Sep 26, 2019

Michael Vichiola said:
so then christians should do saturday as the sabbath? Im confused. Because my pastor at church said that the 10 commandments still apply and that sunday is the sabbath.

He is right on the first point.
He is wrong on the second.

tell him to come to this board and post - because the debate almost never gets passed the first point.

BobRyan · Sep 26, 2019

look to find a lot of free-style creative writing in the posts on this thread and then notice where the bulk of that material points the reader to look for as the "source" and substance for the claims made in the post.

Presbyterian Continuist · Sep 26, 2019

Paul said in Galatians that those who follow holy days, festivals, sacrifices, passovers, ceremoniies, rituals, beads, sacraments, dietary laws, and sabbaths, are choosing a religion that is weak and ineffectual in comparison to the freedom that believers who have faith alone in Christ have. Paul was saddened that the Galatians, having been made free in Christ, were going back into the bondage of a religion that depended on external observances which were inferior to what they previously had.

So it could be seen that those who observe external rituals in whatever religious system they associate with are "weaker brethren" who still need to be set free from bondage to serve Christ in freedom through faith.

yeshuaslavejeff · Sep 26, 2019

A site years ago showed that the Apostle Paul was not saying those things about Yahuweh's Appointed Sanctified Day, that is what they already knew to be true in line with and harmony with all TORAH, SCRIPTURE, PSALMS, PROPHETS , and subsequently also the NEW TESTAMENT.
i.e. the truth of Yahuweh, the one Gospel of Jesus delivered once for all, is not bondage.

Presbyterian Continuist · Sep 26, 2019

yeshuaslavejeff said:
A site years ago showed that the Apostle Paul was not saying those things about Yahuweh's Appointed Sanctified Day, that is what they already knew to be true in line with and harmony with all TORAH, SCRIPTURE, PSALMS, PROPHETS , and subsequently also the NEW TESTAMENT.
i.e. the truth of Yahuweh, the one Gospel of Jesus delivered once for all, is not bondage.

That's what the Judaizers were teaching when they went into the Galatian churches. They taught the people that the gospel that Paul taught was false, and that Paul was not a true Apostle. Paul, Barnabas and Titus went to Jerusalem and had a council with the Apostles, and Peter, James and John fully supported Paul and his gospel of faith alone in Christ. In fact they acknowledged that they all preached the same gospel, and because they did not require Titus, a Gentile, to be circumcised, defeated the Judaizers.

Paul asked the Galatians why they were turning back from freedom in Christ and going back into bondage. He said that this is shown by them observing special days, months, and years. He saw this is departing from faith in Christ to religious bondage. That's what I see quite clearly written in Galatians.

GodLovesCats · Sep 26, 2019

coffee4u said:
Sure church meets on a Sunday, but I see that as simply being for convenience not because there is anything special about Sundays.

There is a verse in the NT that instructs Christians to worship God "on the first day of the week."

I heard during a sermon services are on Sunday because the Resurrection was on that day, not Saturday.

yeshuaslavejeff · Sep 26, 2019

Oscarr said:
That's what the Judaizers were teaching when they went into the Galatian churches. They taught the people that the gospel that Paul taught was false, and that Paul was not a true Apostle.

Yahuweh's Appointed Sanctified Day is not affected by the wrong teachings of the Judaizers ....

Presbyterian Continuist · Sep 26, 2019

ChristianForCats said:
There is a verse in the NT that instructs Christians to worship God "on the first day of the week."

I heard during a sermon services are on Sunday because the Resurrection was on that day, not Saturday.

There was no actual instruction. It said that they met on the first day of the week. It is a description of which day they met for worship, that's all.

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