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My problems with christianity, help me convert!

Oecleus

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My thread got deleted before, and I don't know why. I'm not debating, because if these problems got adequitly answered, I would convert. I would love to convert back, I was before a much happier individual.


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But I don't see how anyone could ever convince me. Maybe proof, or even a compelling philosophy would be enough.

So, I would like you guys to try to convert me to Christianity. Here's a few of my problems with it..

Why Christianity? Why not Buddhism? Why not Islam?

An omniscient being in a universe is incapable with freewill. If a being is omniscient then it already knows what I did before I did it and that would mean I had no choice in it at all.

I don't see your point with there being evil in the world because of Gods gift of freewill. When God made us he put in every fault into us, there is no random effect he can give us that will make us create faults on our own.

If I choose good actions i still am highly likely to get bad things to happen to me, what is the sense in that? Why wouldn't you reward the good people and make sure the sinners don't hurt the others.

Heaven and hell also doesn't make sense to me. I can live a perfect life giving to charity, helping every person I can, and never hear of "God's word" and I would end up in hell. But, I could kill millions and millions of people and as long as I believe in Jesus and God I automatically go to heaven.

I have a problem with the laws put forth by the Lord. If I work on a Sabbath I should be stoned? If I am disobedient to my parents I shall be tied to a tree and stoned?

Lastly(Not of my objections but of what I am willing to type), I don't understand the significance of Jesus, God created himself in human form, sacrificed himself in human form, then resurrected himself for what? To take away the bad sins and allow people access to heaven? If he really wanted to, and if he was omnipotent, he would just forgive the sins and be a more reasonable God.


Hopefully, I posted in the right spot, and hopefully I don't get banned for "trolling"
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Lukaris

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The laws re stoning have been eliminated by Jesus Christ Himself (see John 8:1-11). Understanding the Old Testament (OT) cannot be quickly explained except that one should follow the 10 commandments as a way of living everyday life. Jesus Christ sums up the OT in Matthew 7:12 & Matthew 22:37-40. To understand our predicament with sin (read Romans 1 & 2; a good OT reading of how to deal with it can be found in Ezekiel 18 and Ezekiel 33:10-20 though. A good overview of much of the OT can be found in St. Stephen's testimony before the Sanhedrin in Acts 7. Also read Matthew 5,6, & 7 which is the basic summary our Lord gives us of His Gospel. Note the focus on attending to our heart, loving God & our neighbor,prayer, being charitable etc. these are what our Lord wants of us. Understanding this and then giving our heart to Him can be next found by reading Romans 10 (focus on vs. 9,10, & 13). The key to salvation by grace in accordance with good works (not works based salvation) is explained in Ephesians 2:8-10. These are the important aspects of our faith and in context should seem most practicle (although that is a limited but ok way to see it). Hope this is of some help. Also not every non Christian is going to hell but their predicament is more perilous so all the more reason for us not to judge but pray for our neighbors.
 
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salida

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I will answer your questions in order.

1) Why christianity? Jesus is the only spiritual remedy for mankind. Its the only way that mankind can be redeemed - the only spiritual medicine. No one would complain if the doctor only had one way to save your life. Other religions try to work their way to God without being redeemed; with christianity salvation is a gift. God standards is why too high to work your way there. ****Also, ask yourself this, Are you a good person? Can you keep all the 10 Commandments 100% of the time all the time? Only Jesus did. Go to: The Good Test If you break one of these commandments you are guilty as if you broke all of them. Also read The Evidence That Demands A Verdict by Josh McDowell (it would stand up in a court of law without a shadow of a doubt concerning biblical evidence).

2) Free will in an evil world? Since mankind has fallen his nature is fallen so he will naturally do evil - like lie, etc. Men make it evil because of their unredeemed nature. Adam and Eve actions caused the start of this.

3) A good person or good natured? A good natured person doesn't mean that they are redeemed. Mankind has a spiritual disease and Christ is the mediator between God and man. Good works without Christ doesn't save mankind.

4) Stoned? This is in the Old Testament. The New Testament is a fulfillment of the Old Testament. The Old Testament was more harsh because Christ didn't come yet. They did animal sacrifices for their sins - but this was just a bandaid. And they were under the law. In the New Testament we arn't under the law but we are saved by grace and Christ came and was the perfect sacrifice for our sins.
 
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salida

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***The bible is the most true book in the world because of its overwhelming evidence. No other book nonreligious or religious comes close to these characteristics. Do the research yourself.

Biblical Evidence (Scratching the Surface Only)

Internal Evidences
Prophesies that are confirmed within Bible

- Life of Christ
The Tribe of Judah, Gen 49:10 - Luke 3:23-28
(Genesis was written 4004 BC to 1689 BC)
(Luke's time period is 60-70 AD)

Royal Line of David, Jer 23:5 -Matt 1:1
(Jeremiah 760 to 698 BC)/(Matthew 60-70 AD)

Born of a Virgin, Isaiah 7:14/Matt 1:18-23
(Isaiah 760 to 698 BC)/(60-70 AD)

**I can list at least 20 more of these.
-Rise of Empires
In the book of Daniel, Chapter 2 - four kingdoms are described in the interpretation of the dream of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon: Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greek - Daniel 8:21, 10:20) and a fourth great kingdom to follow - part iron and clay - which is the Roman Empire - during this empire Christ came and the church was established - Daniel 2:44.

-Historical Accuracy
The Bible is loaded with historical statements concerning events hundreds of years ago, yet has not been proven incorrect on any.
(Bible compared to other ancient documents):
New Testament - starts at 25 years - between original and first surviving copies
Homer - starts at 500 years
Demosthenes - at 1400 years
Plato - at 1200 years
Caesar - at 1000 years

Number of Manuscript Copies
New Testament - 5,686
Homer - 643
Demosthenes - 200
Plato - 7
Caesar - 10

Consistency
Written by at least 40 men over a period of time exceeding 1400 years, and has no internal inconsistencies.

Claim of Inspiration
It claims to be spoken by God, 2 Tim 3:16-17). No other religious book makes such claims.

External Evidences
(Prophesies Outside the Bible)
These cities were prophesied to be destroyed and never be built again.
Nineveh - Nahum 1:10, 3:7,15, Zephaniah 2:13-14
Babylon - Isaiah 13:1-22)
Tyre (Ezekiel 26:1-28)

Bible before Science
He hangs the earth on nothing - Job 26:7
(Job was written at least 1000 years ago - some scholars think it could be even 3000 years ago)
Note: Man only knew this for 350 years
Earth is a sphere, Isaiah 40:22
Air has weight, Job 28:25
Gravity - Job 26:7, Job 38:31-33
Winds blow in cyclones, Eccl 1:6

Documents that Prove Bible is True
Gilgamesh Epic, The Sumerian King List, Mari Tablets, Babylonian Chronicles

Archealogoical Finds
Excavations of Ur, Location of Zoar, Ziggurats and the foundation of Tower of Babel


 
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gaweatherford

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Why Christianity? Why not Buddhism? Why not Islam?

Jesus said we could tell false religions by their "fruits". So when we observe the religions we should note how well they grow the people consumming it and whether or not it is good for them: (are they bright, achievers, healthy, happy, prosperous and content; or are they non-achievers, uninteresting, sickly, troubled, poor and frustrated?). It is also wise to note that a few bad apples (false religions) mixed in with a bushel of good ones will stand to be treated with the same benefit that the good ones receive just because they are a part of the same bunch. A majority usually always rules and we can un-wittingly seem to be a part of something eventhough we have not "put in". Just because we partake of blessings and prosperities graced to us (and our nation) by God does'nt mean that we were responsible for it being given. It may just mean that we are taking advantage of it. So no religion at all (or the wrong religion) prospering with achievement, brightness, health, happyness, prosperity and contentment is not necessarily an indicator that all is well with a person, their religion and God. America is a good example of this because muslims and buddhist are prosperous here; but only because they are under the umbrella of Christian precepts for equality, freedom and tolerance. If we want to know the true fruits those religions produce on their own, we only have to look at their individual countries.

An omniscient being in a universe is incapable with freewill. If a being is omniscient then it already knows what I did before I did it and that would mean I had no choice in it at all.

Free will is very special within the universe and if we notice, it is non-indiginous to the rest of the Earth in comparison with the Earth's abundant life. The exception that man has a commanding free will should not be underestimated. A "will" is a powerful thing. In this universe Suns, Comets, Planets, etc. may seem the most powerful but they are not. Think about it: If God were to let man continue his present progression through time gaining in technology and wisdom, then man (for instance) eventually should be able to blow up a sun or planet (I don't know why he would....but he could). It may take man a long time to develop to that point but it's obviously enevitable. That's power and it's change is not reversable and therefore is a force to be reckoned with. God would know this. Therefore, the free will is an obligation to choose correctly. It is not a right in the universe. It's a grant. It's invested in all of us and if it's not used to serve the best interest then it burns and takes us with it. We can sometimes cheapen "free will" in our attempts to understand it but because we contain in our selves at all, this gift of God's image, it is actually enormous......... but unfortunately under rated and disrespected by man.

I don't see your point with there being evil in the world because of Gods gift of freewill. When God made us he put in every fault into us, there is no random effect he can give us that will make us create faults on our own.

Free will is the random effect. Think of it as a formula.
( free will > sin = death). Free will procreates sin and sin procreates death. In between sin and death is a propitiator that changes the formulas normal expression for death into life (free will > sin > Christ = life). Life as we are experiencing it now is not the life that Christ refers to when he states that "He is the way and the truth and the life". The life that we lead now leads us to Christ which in turn leads us to this life that Christ refers to-eternal life.



If I choose good actions i still am highly likely to get bad things to happen to me, what is the sense in that? Why wouldn't you reward the good people and make sure the sinners don't hurt the others.

If we choose good actions just to get good things then we're serving only for the prosperity of good things. However, if we choose good actions in spite of bad things then we are acknowledging God and not His good things nor the bad things.
Matt. 5:45-46:
...that you may be sons of your father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get?

Heaven and hell also doesn't make sense to me. I can live a perfect life giving to charity, helping every person I can, and never hear of "God's word" and I would end up in hell. But, I could kill millions and millions of people and as long as I believe in Jesus and God I automatically go to heaven.

Maybe it's not quite as black and white as that. God has the final say in all matters. The bible states that those who hear the word of God are saved and not condemned. If we think that there are those who have not "heard", then God will worry about that.

I have a problem with the laws put forth by the Lord. If I work on a Sabbath I should be stoned? If I am disobedient to my parents I shall be tied to a tree and stoned?

These are old laws that were meant to keep a primitive people in line by giving them a line that they would not cross. They were raw back then, so was also their interpretation for justice, their flagrancy for cruelty and their inability to deeply conceptualize their own corruption. We all have to crawl before we walk. Man got up off his knees and began to walk when Christ entered the world. It is sometimes best not to look back because that is not who we are anymore.

John 8:3-9:
The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?" They were using this question as a trap in order to have a basis for accusing him. But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground. At this those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there.
 
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matilda1991

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My thread got deleted before, and I don't know why. I'm not debating, because if these problems got adequitly answered, I would convert. I would love to convert back, I was before a much happier individual.

Then you should go to church or see a pastor and convert back. Just do it.
 
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razzelflabben

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My thread got deleted before, and I don't know why. I'm not debating, because if these problems got adequitly answered, I would convert. I would love to convert back, I was before a much happier individual.


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But I don't see how anyone could ever convince me. Maybe proof, or even a compelling philosophy would be enough.

So, I would like you guys to try to convert me to Christianity. Here's a few of my problems with it..

Why Christianity? Why not Buddhism? Why not Islam?
christianity shows evidence of beng truth. One book I am working on, that deals with the evidence is "The Case for Christ" by Lee Strobel I came highly recommended to me, and so far, I am impressed...personally, I add to the long line of evidence personal experiences that support the claims, but that is individual and not necessarily what you are looking for here. The why "Christianity" is about the evidence.

Let me take a moment to say here that when talking about Christianity, I am referring to a believer in Christ, not a religious belief per sa.
An omniscient being in a universe is incapable with freewill. If a being is omniscient then it already knows what I did before I did it and that would mean I had no choice in it at all.
Many people try to get omniscient all turned around. Encarta defines omniscient as...all knowing: knowing or seeming to know everything...

Point is this, God is hard for man to define. We try to put human terms, human understanding on something that is not human. Consider Charlette's web, the author puts human characteristics on the animal does that help us to understand what or how a pig behaves or what a pig knows?

God is omnscient, but does that mean we understand the supernatural God...in fact, I would love to see a passage in scripture that says that God knows everything, past, present, and future...consider this article Apologetics Press - The Omniscience of God The passages present demonstrate a God who is present and therefore knows, kind of like me watching my children from behind a door or corner.

The majority of people assume that omniscience means knowing before hand, but in reality it is much closer to knowing by being there. As to prophecy that is also more closely linked to being there then to fortune telling ideas. God is eternal, without end, time is for God, eternal without end. We don't understand time or God that way, when we do, omniscience takes on a much more biblical concept.
I don't see your point with there being evil in the world because of Gods gift of freewill. When God made us he put in every fault into us, there is no random effect he can give us that will make us create faults on our own.
this is actually one of my favorite arguments against Christianity...According to Gen., sin isn't really a flaw (sin usually meaning in the argument evil)...sin is the result of man being asked to love and man saying sorry I don't want to. I have 5 kids, I teach them, love them, correct them, etc. What I desire from them is love. But each has had moments in time where they didn't like me much, not to mention not "feeling" love. Does that make them flawed? My teen son and I get into a fight over something, he doesn't feel much love, doesn't even feel like for a season, is he flawed?

Man isn't flawed just because he doesn't love. In fact, love is a voluntary thing, otherwise it isn't love at all. My son has no love if I force him to feel what he does not. Man, was created by God for love. Because love is only possible when we have a right to choose whether we love or not, the flaw isn't in not loving (sinning). In fact, the "perfect" creation (don't mistake this for the argument of a world without pain and death) would be one that can choose to love because that is what love is, the choice to remain faithful, kind, putting others above oneself. Man is the "perfect" creation for his created purpose.
If I choose good actions i still am highly likely to get bad things to happen to me, what is the sense in that? Why wouldn't you reward the good people and make sure the sinners don't hurt the others.
Christianity isn't about appeasing anyone or anything. Lots of people apply this pagan idealism to christianity, but it is wrong. The bible tells us that things happen, that God is not a respector of persons, that it rains on the just and the unjust...in fact, if loving God always brought "good" things, then it isn't anymore love than if I hold gun to your head and say, "love me". Love can only happen with 1. choice, and 2. with the "good" and "bad" of life, because it is in both the good and the bad that love is tested and tried and evidenced.
Heaven and hell also doesn't make sense to me. I can live a perfect life giving to charity, helping every person I can, and never hear of "God's word" and I would end up in hell. But, I could kill millions and millions of people and as long as I believe in Jesus and God I automatically go to heaven.
My guess is that it doesn't make sense because you are seeing heaven and hell as rewards and punishments. That isn't what Gen. tells us. According to GEn. death (separation from God) is the consequence of sin, not the punishment for sin. That is why how "good" we are doesn't matter to our eternity. Sin carries with it the consequence of death, and it is Jesus Christ who bridges the gap between the death and life God speak of to us. (we can talk about why Jesus is the bridge, but for the moment I am trying to hold very close to your questions) So if heaven and hell are the consequences, not the punishment, then you can be all kinds of wonderful and still go to hell.

Look at it this way, I instruct my kids to not play in the street, they however, don't listen and get hit by a car. Did the car hit them because I judged them for being disobedient, or did the car hit them because the consequence of playing in a busy street is that you get hit by a car? Man was told by God, don't play with sin (in the street). Man faced death (getting hit by the car) will picking up thier toys, or washing my car (all the good man can do) change the consequence of playing in the street?
I have a problem with the laws put forth by the Lord. If I work on a Sabbath I should be stoned? If I am disobedient to my parents I shall be tied to a tree and stoned?
be careful which laws you apply to God and which are permitted by God. This is another common misunderstanding. According to the OT God permitted much that He didn't approve of because of the hardness of man's hearts. These laws are often attributed to God when in reality of scripture, God said, 'your wrong, but if you insist on doing it your way, at least do X'

Let me see, an example....I try to control the amount of time my kids spend on the computer. But I have to be gone, so I know that no matter how I insist, the kids will be on the computer while I am gone. So even though I don't want them on, I know that they are stuborn enough to disobey. So I make a deal with my kids and say, okay, I know your gonna be on, so here is what I will do, you can be on, but not connected to the internet. My kids can live with that, so the law is set. Now you could say, that I made a law that my kids could play on the computer while I was gone, but to do so would totally miss the point. The point is that my law would say, no computer, but then, they would breaking a law I know they can't or won't hold to, so I give them grace and say, let me make it easier for you to hold to the law.

God, didn't make a law just to catch man, He made laws to protect man from himself. In fact, the bible tells us that all the laws, all the prophets are about love. (biblical love) If the law is temporing man's stubborn nature with love, most people would say that is a good thing, not a bad thing.
Lastly(Not of my objections but of what I am willing to type), I don't understand the significance of Jesus, God created himself in human form, sacrificed himself in human form, then resurrected himself for what? To take away the bad sins and allow people access to heaven? If he really wanted to, and if he was omnipotent, he would just forgive the sins and be a more reasonable God.
No, this goes back to understanding what sin is and what the consequence of sin is.

Let me see how streamline I can make this for the sake of a post...the consequences of sin is death, blood. That is what happens when you sin, death...but like I would do anything to save my child even when he runs into the street and gets hit by a car, God wants to save his creation. So blood is required. God gave man His own blood, like a blood transfusion if it helps, to save the child hit by the car.

In the OT we see that the people required blood sacrifices to pay for the sins of man, it is blood that is required and blood was sacrificed. In the NT the blood that satisfied the sin was Jesus Christ. It really all goes back to the Gen. understanding of sin and what the consequence of sin really is.
Hopefully, I posted in the right spot, and hopefully I don't get banned for "trolling"
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Hopefully this helps I really enjoy talking about these things and exploring with people who like to question them. Thanks so for the questions (no sarcasm, I really enjoy questions)
 
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Dondi

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But I don't see how anyone could ever convince me. Maybe proof, or even a compelling philosophy would be enough.

So, I would like you guys to try to convert me to Christianity. Here's a few of my problems with it..

No one here can convert you. All we can do is tell you what it has done for us.

Why Christianity? Why not Buddhism? Why not Islam?

Why not Buddhism or Islam? Have you tried them?

An omniscient being in a universe is incapable with freewill. If a being is omniscient then it already knows what I did before I did it and that would mean I had no choice in it at all.

You ever have kids? Did you ever tell them not to play in the street because of traffic? Now I know perfectly well that there is the possibility that they might go and play in the street. But I'm hoping that my authority and love for them is enough to keep them within the boundary of my yard. That they will trust in my wisdom not to play in the street.

I don't see your point with there being evil in the world because of Gods gift of freewill. When God made us he put in every fault into us, there is no random effect he can give us that will make us create faults on our own.

If I choose good actions i still am highly likely to get bad things to happen to me, what is the sense in that? Why wouldn't you reward the good people and make sure the sinners don't hurt the others.

Are you saying that freewill IS the fault He put in us? All freewill is, is the ability to obey or disobey. I believe God will judge us for our works. The bible plainly says so. But that's going to be in the next life.

Fact is, we all have our faults, our sins. Which is the result of the bad choices we made or make. We are also all prone to varying sins. Your premise is that there are good people and there are bad people. Where does one draw the line?

Heaven and hell also doesn't make sense to me. I can live a perfect life giving to charity, helping every person I can, and never hear of "God's word" and I would end up in hell. But, I could kill millions and millions of people and as long as I believe in Jesus and God I automatically go to heaven.

Who says? I believe that everyone has a conscience, including the conscience that there is a God or at least an accountability for one's life. If all you have is that conscience, then God will judge you in the light of what you know, not on what you don't know. If you know to do good and don't do it, then it is sin.

I have a problem with the laws put forth by the Lord. If I work on a Sabbath I should be stoned? If I am disobedient to my parents I shall be tied to a tree and stoned?

The Old Testament Law of Moses was for the nation of Israel who was (and is, I believe) in a covenant relationship with God. So most of what you read as law is within the cultural context of the time and place where the Israelites resided, and therefore is not universally applicable. But principally, the Ten Commandments provide basic guidelines for believers in God everywhere. The Law is good in that it breaks down to the two gtreatist commandments that Jesus taught in Matthew 22:37-40: Love God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength, and love your neighbor as yourself. If you don't have those two principles operating in you life, the law has absolutely no use for you.


Lastly(Not of my objections but of what I am willing to type), I don't understand the significance of Jesus, God created himself in human form, sacrificed himself in human form, then resurrected himself for what? To take away the bad sins and allow people access to heaven? If he really wanted to, and if he was omnipotent, he would just forgive the sins and be a more reasonable God.

The whole purpose for Christ's sacrifice is that while we ought to strive to do good, we are going to blow it. The Blood of Christ is that stop gap that prevents our condemnation before God. It is clearly taught that God is a holy God, and to try and approach God in a state of sin will not work. I suppose if He really wanted He could just forgive sins, but then there wouldn't be any justice. Justice demands that wrong be dealt with. If all He did was wink at our sins, we would go absolutely nowhere. We wouldn't grow spiritually toward the perfection or ideal He set before us. We need to know that for God to invest in our lives, it's going to cost something. One way or another, it will either cost us or cost God. Trying to redeem our own sins is akin to trying to wash the mud off our pants with more mud. Which way do you prefer? What God offers is Someone to take the penalty and consequences of our sin. Not that we can just callousely live in sin for the sake of Christ, but that we learn to love God and love one another for Kingdom Living.
 
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aiki

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So, I would like you guys to try to convert me to Christianity. Here's a few of my problems with it..

Well, this is a problem. You see, no person, no human being, can truly convert you; that is solely God's job. We can provide you with reasons to believe and be converted, but whether or not you will accept these reasons is up to God (and you - sort of).

Why Christianity? Why not Buddhism? Why not Islam?

I guess what you're really asking is why is Christianity preferable and/or better than any other religion. Am I right? Assuming that I am, I would simply point to what makes Christianity distinct from all other religions. All religions have things like prayer, sacred rituals, priests, and a moral code in common. In respect to these things it would be hard to prove that Christianity was superior to any other religion. Where Christianity differs from all other religions, however, is where one can see why it is preferable to any other religion. Here are a few points where CHristianity is distinct from other religions:

1. Not works based.

Christianity does not rely upon one's personal merit to secure a place in Heaven or a relationship with God.

2. Unlike Buddha or Mohammed, Jesus claimed to be God and proved through miracles, his fulfillment of prophecy, and his resurrection from the dead that he was truly divine.

3. Christianity is not Self-centered, it is not about Self improvement, but about putting Self to death that the character of God may grow in its place.

An omniscient being in a universe is incapable with freewill. If a being is omniscient then it already knows what I did before I did it and that would mean I had no choice in it at all.

How so?

I don't see your point with there being evil in the world because of Gods gift of freewill. When God made us he put in every fault into us, there is no random effect he can give us that will make us create faults on our own.

How do you know this?

If I choose good actions i still am highly likely to get bad things to happen to me, what is the sense in that? Why wouldn't you reward the good people and make sure the sinners don't hurt the others.

If God prevented us from doing evil things we would be nothing more than puppets. If God allowed us to do evil things but negated the destructive consequences of our evil actions, He would be enabling us to do evil, which would make Him evil, too. Neither of these two possibilities is preferable to what we presently have.

You and I suffer because this is always the result of Sin. Sin is so horrible, in part, because it reaches out beyond the sinner to harm others.

Heaven and hell also doesn't make sense to me. I can live a perfect life giving to charity, helping every person I can, and never hear of "God's word" and I would end up in hell. But, I could kill millions and millions of people and as long as I believe in Jesus and God I automatically go to heaven.

No one - except Jesus Christ - has ever lived a perfect life. Every human being sins. Doing good deeds, then, is not enough to enable us to stand before a perfectly holy God uncondemned. We need the perfect, sinless life of Christ covering us in order to gain acceptance with a perfect, sinless God.

Salvation has nothing to do with our deserving it. God saves us because He is merciful and kind and loving. No one can point to another and say, "I deserve Heaven more than him!" As far as God is concerned, we all deserve Hell; it is a testament to the great graciousness of God that we do not all get what we deserve.

The Bible says that every person has some idea that there is a God. All of Creation reveals Him. What's more, every person has a basic sense of right and wrong, a conscience, that justifies or condemns that person. Each of us has an innate "moral law" given to us by the "Moral Law Giver." It is because these things are so that no one will be able to stand before God and say, "I had no idea you existed!"

I have a problem with the laws put forth by the Lord. If I work on a Sabbath I should be stoned? If I am disobedient to my parents I shall be tied to a tree and stoned?

Much of what Paul the apostle wrote in the New Testament is an explanation of why the OT laws are no longer in force. I would suggest reading, in particular, his letters to the Hebrews, to the Galatians, and to the Romans.

Lastly(Not of my objections but of what I am willing to type), I don't understand the significance of Jesus, God created himself in human form, sacrificed himself in human form, then resurrected himself for what? To take away the bad sins and allow people access to heaven? If he really wanted to, and if he was omnipotent, he would just forgive the sins and be a more reasonable God.

So, what makes you a better judge of how things ought to be done, than God Himself? Are you omniscient? Are you omnipotent? Do you exist outside of time? Did you make the Universe?

Peace to you.
 
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FutureAndAHope

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My thread got deleted before, and I don't know why. I'm not debating, because if these problems got adequitly answered, I would convert. I would love to convert back, I was before a much happier individual.


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But I don't see how anyone could ever convince me. Maybe proof, or even a compelling philosophy would be enough.

I will share with you a true story that keeps me a Christian. Then I will answer your other questions.

One morning I got up an walked into the hall an I heard a voice say "How would you like to be stabbed in the valley?" This scared me a little as the "valley" was the rough end of town. I was planning to go there to ask people out to church, and I wondered if God was displeased with me because of the strange question. I decided to go any way. I walked up to the first person I met and asked him out to church. He said "No I am an atheist". I just said fine but hoped to change his mind. He then proceeded to unbutton his shirt and showed me scar marks up and down his middle section. He said to me "This is from a knife attack that occurred to me in the valley some time ago, I spent months recovering in hospital, how could God really love me?". I was able to tell him how God had spoken to me in the morning letting me know God understood why he did not believe. He came out to church some weeks latter and became a Christian.

So, I would like you guys to try to convert me to Christianity. Here's a few of my problems with it..

Why Christianity? Why not Buddhism? Why not Islam?
Because it comes with evidence, both historical and current day. See www.johnmellor.org to see healings happening today.

An omniscient being in a universe is incapable with freewill. If a being is omniscient then it already knows what I did before I did it and that would mean I had no choice in it at all.

The bible does not say that God knows the future to the finest detail, he has the power to control it, but he has given the earth to man.

I don't see your point with there being evil in the world because of Gods gift of freewill. When God made us he put in every fault into us, there is no random effect he can give us that will make us create faults on our own.
The bible says God does not tempt any one to sin but each one is lead astray by their own desire.

Jas 1:13 When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone;

If I choose good actions i still am highly likely to get bad things to happen to me, what is the sense in that? Why wouldn't you reward the good people and make sure the sinners don't hurt the others.

Read the true story at the top. God understands people frustrations at unfair things that happen. He also grants believers wisdom to avoid places and situations that are potentially dangerous. I.e. a person at a drunken night spot is more likely to be bashed than some one watching a movie.

Heaven and hell also doesn't make sense to me. I can live a perfect life giving to charity, helping every person I can, and never hear of "God's word" and I would end up in hell. But, I could kill millions and millions of people and as long as I believe in Jesus and God I automatically go to heaven.
I think you are asking here how can a person live a good life and goto hell because they were not made aware of Jesus. See this website it is a testimony of a man who was dead but came back to life. God himself witnessed Jesus to the man, no one does not get a chance. Sadly not every one is willing to listen. Ian McCormack - Heaven Hell and the Box Jellyfish


I have a problem with the laws put forth by the Lord. If I work on a Sabbath I should be stoned? If I am disobedient to my parents I shall be tied to a tree and stoned?

The penalties are harsh to prevent people from performing crimes against Gods law. There is a story of a woman who was caught in adultery in the New Testiment, of which the penalty was death by stoning. The religious leaders came to Jesus and put the woman in front of him and said "the law commands we kill this woman what do you say"? Jesus said to the crowd, he who is with out sin should cast the first stone. The crowd one by one left until there was only Jesus and the woman. He said "Woman where are your accusers?". Jesus just said to her go and sin no more. God's heart is to maintain order by the harsh law, but he rarely carries it out in practice.

Lastly(Not of my objections but of what I am willing to type), I don't understand the significance of Jesus, God created himself in human form, sacrificed himself in human form, then resurrected himself for what? To take away the bad sins and allow people access to heaven? If he really wanted to, and if he was omnipotent, he would just forgive the sins and be a more reasonable God.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

The bible says God is just - meaning we have a right to forgiveness and he is willing to forgive. Those who refuse to recieve his forgiveness, because they want to keep sinning and are not willing to receive purification deserve to go to hell and will spend eternity there regretting every moment of their betrayal. But you must remember confession to a faithful God today while we have breath brings forgiveness. Once we die it is too late to confess. God will not strive forever with a man or woman who consistently refuses him.
 
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If Not For Grace

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Oceleus:

What DO you believe? Did man evolve from a gas and this is where we are? Is there no reason to chose between good and evil, or is there no choice at all? Is this life the end?

I believe in Christianity because of the resurrection. JESUS...
That's why not Islam, or Buddha etc. Either Jesus is who He said He was or He was a Liar or a poor misguided mental case.
I believe He rose from the dead like He said He would and then the rest is not so hard. What do you think?
 
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[serious]

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My thread got deleted before, and I don't know why. I'm not debating, because if these problems got adequitly answered, I would convert. I would love to convert back, I was before a much happier individual.


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But I don't see how anyone could ever convince me. Maybe proof, or even a compelling philosophy would be enough.

So, I would like you guys to try to convert me to Christianity. Here's a few of my problems with it..

Why Christianity? Why not Buddhism? Why not Islam?
Are you looking into those as potential religions? You currently are marked as atheist so if you are honestly seeking faith, let's back off a step and leave it as is there a God/afterlife/spiritual world. No sense in arguing about what the right model of car is before you've decided to stop biking everywhere. If you are convinced of a higher power, then you can start looking at what religion you feel has it most right.
An omniscient being in a universe is incapable with freewill. If a being is omniscient then it already knows what I did before I did it and that would mean I had no choice in it at all.
Not at all. We can be fully aware of the outcome of things we do not control. likewise, even assuming an omniscient God we don't get away from free will. There are some potential issues with the tri-omni God concept and the existance of evil, but that's a separate issue which I'll address after you bring it up below.
I don't see your point with there being evil in the world because of Gods gift of freewill. When God made us he put in every fault into us, there is no random effect he can give us that will make us create faults on our own.
The tri omni God is something I myself have issues with, especially when calvinists argue also for preselection. If need be, reject one of the omnis. Heck, reject all the omnis and leave it as a very knowledgeable, very powerful, kind God.
If I choose good actions i still am highly likely to get bad things to happen to me, what is the sense in that? Why wouldn't you reward the good people and make sure the sinners don't hurt the others.
If God/an afterlife exists, then all debts can be settled at the end. This may require a rejectiono of ctain views of the afterlife to mesh with the concept of a just God though.
Heaven and hell also doesn't make sense to me. I can live a perfect life giving to charity, helping every person I can, and never hear of "God's word" and I would end up in hell. But, I could kill millions and millions of people and as long as I believe in Jesus and God I automatically go to heaven.
That is one specific view of the afterlife. Even within the judeo christian religions there are a multitude of views of the afterlife. Sme Christian groups take a rather agnostic view of the afterlife and just leave it as "I'll find out when I get there". That's my view. Others reject the idea of an afterlife and some believe in a heaven but no hell. Others believe hell exists as a kid of purgatory where sins are paid for beore enterance to heaven.
I have a problem with the laws put forth by the Lord. If I work on a Sabbath I should be stoned? If I am disobedient to my parents I shall be tied to a tree and stoned?
These are not contemporary laws within Christianity. Not all christian denominations are sola scriptura anyway.
Lastly(Not of my objections but of what I am willing to type), I don't understand the significance of Jesus, God created himself in human form, sacrificed himself in human form, then resurrected himself for what? To take away the bad sins and allow people access to heaven? If he really wanted to, and if he was omnipotent, he would just forgive the sins and be a more reasonable God.
Again, I'd say leave that until you've settled the "is there a god/spiritual world"
Hopefully, I posted in the right spot, and hopefully I don't get banned for "trolling"
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Looks like the right spot.
 
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Dark_Lite

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My thread got deleted before, and I don't know why. I'm not debating, because if these problems got adequitly answered, I would convert. I would love to convert back, I was before a much happier individual.

You appear to be having an existential crisis. It is my guess that it has been caused by the sudden realization that, from your perspective, everything you believed to be true is no longer true. That which gave you meaning no longer does, as it does not exist. You will need to seek your meaning elsewhere. The goodness that humanity is capable of producing, despite its evil tendencies, is a good place to start.

The alternative (one of them, anyway) is to conclude nihilism, which I find to be a dangerous stance if improperly applied. It is the idea that life is inherently meaningless. We live. We die. The end. But even in the realm of nihilism, you can create meaning for yourself. You're here, might as well enjoy it.

An omniscient being in a universe is incapable with freewill. If a being is omniscient then it already knows what I did before I did it and that would mean I had no choice in it at all.
That depends on how you define omniscience as well as how you view the flow of time and how the world is actualized. The best answer I've been able to think of is that God is able to view all possibilities that will happen on an infinite scale. Whether you want to accept the many worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics (where there are many parallel realities to cover different choices) or not is another topic, albeit related.

If I choose good actions i still am highly likely to get bad things to happen to me, what is the sense in that? Why wouldn't you reward the good people and make sure the sinners don't hurt the others.
The best answer to the problem of evil that I know of is the Irenaen theodicy: God intends the world as a place of "soul-making" and suffering is a necessary component of it. Objections include such things like "well why not just remove suffering and create us all to be complete, moral creatures?" Answer: Would violate free will. If free will is to be part of the human experience, creating us with already-formed perfect morals etc etc would not make us very free.

Heaven and hell also doesn't make sense to me. I can live a perfect life giving to charity, helping every person I can, and never hear of "God's word" and I would end up in hell. But, I could kill millions and millions of people and as long as I believe in Jesus and God I automatically go to heaven.
And who says, aside from the extreme fundamentalist evangelical Christians, that this is how it really goes? Catholicism defines a doctrine called invincible ignorance which covers situations such as people who have never heard of Jesus being able to go to heaven should they lead good lives. As for the genocidal maniac in your second example, is someone who does things like that really living the true Christian message? God's forgiveness may be infinite, but salvation is not a "flip on the switch" process, it's a life-long kind of thing. Plus, only God would know if such a conversion (like on a deathbed) was even genuine.

Keep in mind these answers come from a Catholic perspective, and are not representative of all Christian views on the subject(s).

I have a problem with the laws put forth by the Lord. If I work on a Sabbath I should be stoned? If I am disobedient to my parents I shall be tied to a tree and stoned?
Sup old testament.

Lastly(Not of my objections but of what I am willing to type), I don't understand the significance of Jesus, God created himself in human form, sacrificed himself in human form, then resurrected himself for what? To take away the bad sins and allow people access to heaven? If he really wanted to, and if he was omnipotent, he would just forgive the sins and be a more reasonable God.
Something to do with the law being bound in blood or something to that effect.

----------------------------

If you were to convert back to Christianity, the liberal strain of it would probably be best. It has a wide variety of theological bases that allow for many different types of belief.

By the way, if you're looking for evidence for God, you'll never find it. In the end, it will always come down to a choice of faith.

The answers you receive to these questions will always have a hole or two (or maybe more depending on how robust it is...), no matter how small. But in the realm of critical religious discussion, nothing is ever really able to be answered to 100% satisfaction whether it be a question supporting theism or atheism. Those holes in the answers are where faith comes into play. You either have it or lack it.

In my opinion, the best stance for you to take would probably be something of a non-nihilistic existentialist philosophy: humanity creates its meaning through existing.
 
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liftmeup

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Some very studious answers, but you know, no-one got converted by cold reason and studious arguments... Jesus appeals to your heart.

Jesus said "seek and ye shall find, ask and ye shall receive, knock and the door shall be opened unto you."

You are here, and profess that you were happier before when you were a Christian! I don't know why you need anything more at this point....!

But anyway, remember Christ's promises to us. He meant them. Open your heart to Him - take the plunge and see how He answers you. If you are earnest He most certainly will. He loves a seeker. Jesus demands foremost our trust, and that we obey him, but the trust has to come first. Trust...

What is at risk? You might be happy again!
 
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Hydrangea

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Wow, everyone has done a great job on answering.

Here are my two cents.



Why do we have freewill if God knows what we'll do?

My rich friend's father gives her the freewill to use her bank account money however she sees fit. He HOPES that she will use it wisely, but in the end, he sadly knows she will spend it on clothes and shoes. He knows her, lived with her, raised her and nurtured her, and he has given her the freewill to use the money as she sees fit, but knowing his daughter, knowing her heart, he knows what the end result will be. To have the free will to do something does not necessarily mean it must CONFLICT with MY KNOWLEDGE as to what you will DO with that free will.



To give a reasonable argument on why God exists is difficult when matched alongside scientific ones with not full proof, but at least more physical proof.

Ppl don't like to hear that knowing God's existence is a FEELING and about having FAITH because of evidences u urself see. What is coincidence to some, like you for the first time getting a flat tire on the very night that if you had gone home any earlier you would have met up with those gun-toting thugs that robbed your house, is God-intervention to others. Some want to call u seeing an angel as a mental disorder. Some want to say that the demon u saw was just a figment of your imagination. :crossrc: It's not an easy thing to have faith all the time.


We don't always need concrete, scientific evidence to know that something is wrong or that something exists. POINT IN CASE. My father was having intestinal discomfort. They did every test known to man and gave him every x-ray, and said that ALL IS WELL. YOU ARE IMAGINING THINGS. But he KNEW they were wrong. One day, he can't keep ANYTHING down. Rushed to the hospital. There's a SEVERE blockage all the way up to his chest practically, then they realize, heck, there's a growth/tumour in the intestines that has obstructed the food. Thankfully :bow:, his response to the blockage made them find out what they couldn't with their machines. He's fine now, praise the Lord. But I guess if ppl want to say there are flaws in God and Christianity, then obviously and inarguably the same can be said for medicine and science.


:blush:
 
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Dharma Wheel

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Heaven and hell also doesn't make sense to me. I can live a perfect life giving to charity, helping every person I can, and never hear of "God's word" and I would end up in hell. But, I could kill millions and millions of people and as long as I believe in Jesus and God I automatically go to heaven.

Yes, this idea is one of things I find both absurd and illogical about Christianity. How can a supposedly good and just being find it just and good to send people to be tortured for an eternity in hell? How can a God expect his followers to be happy in heaven knowing that people they loved but didn't believe in God roast in hell for an eternity? It is harsh, unreasonable and illogical.

No one deserves to be punished for an eternity but shouldn't good-hearted non-believers be freed from hell rather than murderous christians?

I personally believe in heaven but I believe that all creatures will get there in the end after being freed from samsara. All souls will get purified, maybe spend some time in naraka but in the end all souls will reach nirvana.
 
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razzelflabben

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Yes, this idea is one of things I find both absurd and illogical about Christianity. How can a supposedly goood and just being find it just and good to send people to be tortured for an eternity in hell? How can a God expect his followers to be happy in heaven knowing that people they loved but didn't believe in God roast in hell for an eternity? It is harsh, unreasonable and illogical.

No one deserves to be punished for an eternity but shouldn't good-hearted non-believers be freed from hell rather than murderous christians?

I personally believe in heaven but I believe that all creatures will get there in the end after being freed from samsara. All souls will get purified, maybe spend some time in naraka but in the end all souls will reach nirvana.
but according to scripture, hell isn't a punishment of sin, but rather the consequence of sin, which means your whole objections is based on tradition, not what the "religion" teaches.
 
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