My Problem with the Invisible Church

[11822]

Talking to people with works and those without at the same time and condemning both.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

It actually sounds like Hes also talking to people who don't lack good works, but them who justify themselves by works and not faith maybe. But faith without works is dead. Its like a two edged sword or something.

Yeah, something like that.

Scripture also says to do all things with love. Works without love amount to nothing. AND, our salvation is a gift that is freely given and cannot be earned. But we know each other by the love we show others and how we too will carry a Cross even though we be persecuted for being His.

 

[11822]

Yeah, something like that.

Scripture also says to do all things with love. Works without love amount to nothing. AND, our salvation is a gift that is freely given and cannot be earned. But we know each other by the love we show others and how we too will carry a Cross even though we be persecuted for being His.

Goes to show how deep the word goes, one teaching just scratches the surface. And one teaching can cover multiple things. And love sums it up. Yet love takes many lessons.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

My problem with the invisible church? It's invisible. I can't see it.

My problem with the visible church? If it was, someone would take a picture of it - and batta bing, batta bang - proof! It's visible (and we'd all know what/which it is!). But it seems the "visible" church is invisible (go figure).




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[Thekla]

Not "invisible", but visible over a wide area.
(Across space and time.)

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Awesome LLOJ!!!! I haven't seen it yet.....plan to

*i've often wondered about the interpretations of "iron" in the Bible.....such as "iron gate", etc.*

Yeah, tis perplexing to me also

Search for 'Genesis 1:1' in the version

Rotherham) Proverbs 27:17 Let iron by iron become sharp, and let a man sharpen the face of his friend.

 

[ivebeenshown]

My problem with the visible church? If it was, someone would take a picture of it - and batta bing, batta bang - proof! It's visible (and we'd all know what/which it is!). But it seems the "visible" church is invisible (go figure).

I can give you a picture of a parish church but the Church as a whole spans across the whole world and one cannot capture it in one picture, much like one cannot capture the entire corporate entity that is Starbucks in one picture. Is Starbucks invisible?

 

[Rdr Iakovos]

My problem with the visible church? If it was, someone would take a picture of it - and batta bing, batta bang - proof! It's visible (and we'd all know what/which it is!). But it seems the "visible" church is invisible (go figure).

.

Yeah- Take a picture of "The American" for me. He should encompasse and entail everything that is America. It's not enough that our fellow is AN AMERICAN- nope, he has to be everything that is America. He has to have the Grand Canyon built into his abdomen. He must be the entire Congress.

OTOH, since you asked, here's a picture of the visible Church
http://ts4.mm.bing.net/images/thumb...les.wordpress.com/2010/01/st-moses-chapel.jpg

And another angle of the front
http://ts4.mm.bing.net/images/thumb...daylife.com/imageserve/0aMjfqx5OCcDy/610x.jpg
guess what?
It's not a building.

Since you say you can't see it, you must not catch a glimpse of it in the mirror, either- by your own words you speak your own judgement.

Any other nonsenical questions?

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Is Starbucks invisible?

Yes, the corporation is.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Yeah- Take a picture of "The American" for me.

AMERICANS are visible. Is the legal entity of The United States of America? No.


Is the Christian church is physical and visible - take a picture of it, post it here.




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[Rdr Iakovos]

Not "invisible", but visible over a wide area.
(Across space and time.)

Clear to me- but beyond the capacity of some to grasp.

 

[ivebeenshown]

Yes, the corporation is.

How? The CEO is visible. The employees are visible. There are official company documents and procedures. These are some of what makes up the corporation.

 

[Montalban]

I agree, but is what He desires a political, structual, institutional unity? As long as we're all officially registered in congregations legally affiliated with the same corporate entity? I don't think so....

Even Protestants have churches that are organised!

 

[Montalban]

Of course, who knows who is Catholic or Othodox?

It's to do with beliefs.

In Protestantism one can argue all matters at once. For instance one can argue that individual differences in belief do not matter, and hence the fracturing into denominations does not matter, but the fact people adhere to those denominations show that they do indeed matter.

Baptists don't follow all the same beliefs as Anglicans.

You have differences over baptism, forms of communion, who can be ordained clergy, etc.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

A thought on the visible church, in special regard to people and communities lacking a private room:

Matthew 6:6

But when you pray, go to your inner room, close the door, and pray to your Father in secret.

Visible churches provide a place for personal prayer to God the Father (among other things).

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by CaliforniaJosiah Of course, who knows who is Catholic or Othodox?

It's to do with beliefs.

In Protestantism one can argue all matters at once.

Ya just had to bring up Protestism didn't ya

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Even Protestants have churches that are organised!

None of them claims to be THE church. Protestants are apt to believe that all Christians are PEOPLE - thus the gathering, assembly, coming together of people is apt to be people. I suppose if you could gather ALL believers (past, present and future) and ONLY believers - and if you had a REALLY wide angle lense - you could take a picture of them, but you'd still miss the the point. It's their FAITH in Christ that makes them Christians, not their bodies.


MY "problem" with your concept of the church as a physical/visible entity is no one can see it or identify it by sight - it seems your "visible" church... well.... isn't.





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[Montalban]

None of them claims to be THE church.

That's a different matter.

Your objecting to a church because it has a system. Each Protestant church does too; a hierarchy

However now you're saying that a church's claims to be 'the' church can't be right. Why? An appeal to incredulity doesn't help me understand your position

Protestants are apt to believe that all Christians are PEOPLE - thus the gathering,
assembly, coming together of people is apt to be people. I suppose if you could gather ALL believers (past, present and future) and ONLY believers - and if you had a REALLY wide angle lense - you could take a picture of them, but you'd still miss the the point. It's their FAITH in Christ that makes them Christians, not their bodies.

Except in Protestantism you divide on issues such as whom to baptise, ordinations, etc. Some even handle snakes.

MY "problem" with your concept of the church as a physical/visible entity is no one can see it or identify it by sight - it seems your "visible" church... well.... isn't.

I don't get this. Anyone can look up what Orthodox believe.

 

[Montalban]

A thought on the visible church, in special regard to people and communities lacking a private room:

Matthew 6:6


Visible churches provide a place for personal prayer to God the Father (among other things).

I was just reading Acts 8 last night. It shows that people moved to join with God need the visible attention of the Apostles, through whom the Holy Spirit worked...

Acts 8:14 Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, 15 who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. 16 For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.


They had ONLY BEEN BAPTISED (which in theory anyone can do). But they needed the Apostles to lay hands on them.

Also, at the beginning of the chapter it talks of Paul persecuting the church.

If the church was 'invisible' I wonder how he knew whom to persecute?

 

[JacktheCatholic]

I was just reading Acts 8 last night. It shows that people moved to join with God need the visible attention of the Apostles, through whom the Holy Spirit worked...

Acts 8:14 Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, 15 who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. 16 For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.


They had ONLY BEEN BAPTISED (which in theory anyone can do). But they needed the Apostles to lay hands on them.

Also, at the beginning of the chapter it talks of Paul persecuting the church.

If the church was 'invisible' I wonder how he knew whom to persecute?

IMO these are excellent points being made and I see their value for evidence of a visible church. I also know the scripture have more examples of a visible church.

I also like how you show that baptism was something any lay person could perform but other things like laying on of hands needed an Apostle. Someone with a charism that baptism does not confer.