My Problem with the Invisible Church

[Montalban]

Indeed, simply being moved by the Holy Spirit to seek out the truth was not enough.

Later in that same chapter we have the Ethiopian who wished the truth but needed a deacon to explain it to him

 

[11822]

I was just reading Acts 8 last night. It shows that people moved to join with God need the visible attention of the Apostles, through whom the Holy Spirit worked...

Acts 8:14 Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, 15 who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. 16 For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.


They had ONLY BEEN BAPTISED (which in theory anyone can do). But they needed the Apostles to lay hands on them.

Also, at the beginning of the chapter it talks of Paul persecuting the church.

If the church was 'invisible' I wonder how he knew whom to persecute?

The ones left standing after the dust settles get persecuted.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Indeed, simply being moved by the Holy Spirit to seek out the truth was not enough.

Later in that same chapter we have the Ethiopian who wished the truth but needed a deacon to explain it to him

I would have loved to been that Ethiopian, tho I don't think I would have relished the idea of being a eunuch

Young) Acts 8:27 And having arisen, he went on, and lo, a man of Ethiopia, a eunuch, a man of rank, of Candace the queen of the Ethiopians, who was over all her treasure, who had come to worship to Jerusalem;

 

[Rick Otto]

quote=Montalban;I was just reading Acts 8 last night. It shows that people moved to join with God need the visible attention of the Apostles, through whom the Holy Spirit worked...

Looks like you realize they were being moved by The Holy Spirit.

Also, at the beginning of the chapter it talks of Paul persecuting the church.
If the church was 'invisible' I wonder how he knew whom to persecute?

The devil can see us!

 

[Montalban]

Looks like you realize they were being moved by The Holy Spirit.

So you're commenting to say you see that I see something I've said Is this what you're saying?

As I never denied people are 'moved' by the Spirit I can't see what point you have.

My point being that even though they were 'moved' by the spirit they still needed the Apostles to lay hands on them



It's nice to feel loved.

 

[Montalban]

I would have loved to been that Ethiopian, tho I don't think I would have relished the idea of being a eunuch

Everyone's unique

 

[sunlover1]

A thought on the visible church, in special regard to people and communities lacking a private room:

Matthew 6:6


Visible churches provide a place for personal prayer to God the Father (among other things).

Nothing wrong with a physical church building.

I like to gather and worship together in one.

What about those tigers huh?

 

[Montalban]

What about those tigers huh?

They're very annoyed!

 

[Stryder06]

I said the USA is certainly visible; you said that I said otherwise.

I am totally sorry. I thought you were saying the USA wasn't visible. I do indeed apologize. I have no clue how I read that wrong.

Ah, well, I could show you one location, but that would not be in itself the entire entity.

The one location is a reflection of the whole however. So in essence if MackyD's is the place to be, and you show me one, you've shown me all of them, so to speak.

 

[Rdr Iakovos]

None of them claims to be THE church. Protestants are apt to believe that all Christians are PEOPLE - thus the gathering, assembly, coming together of people is apt to be people. I suppose if you could gather ALL believers (past, present and future) and ONLY believers - and if you had a REALLY wide angle lense - you could take a picture of them, but you'd still miss the the point. It's their FAITH in Christ that makes them Christians, not their bodies.


MY "problem" with your concept of the church as a physical/visible entity is no one can see it or identify it by sight - it seems your "visible" church... well.... isn't.

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Your conclusion is the last statement- a statement of opinion, predicated on your opinion, presented as fact.

Sounds like SELF affirming SELF, fact-checked by SELF.

Here's an actual picture of the visible church. See how visible they are?
(not pictured: millions)
http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT6YZ1gRfELW1QxV5Y6p9eDTj6016ZGqf8kj3TVLWxeCJ41T8UYhA

 

[ivebeenshown]

I am totally sorry. I thought you were saying the USA wasn't visible. I do indeed apologize. I have no clue how I read that wrong.

No problem, forums tend to... well, let's just say destroy human communication. XD

The one location is a reflection of the whole however. So in essence if MackyD's is the place to be, and you show me one, you've shown me all of them, so to speak.

Oh, is that so? In that case:

 

[JacktheCatholic]

Nothing wrong with a physical church building.

I like to gather and worship together in one.

What about those tigers huh?

Tigers? I do not watch baseball, never have been a fan of that sport. But I hope they do well.

 

[Searching_for_Christ]

New question, if your Church is indeed "visible" and by visible, I still hold to the idea that the whole "visibility" of your Church lays soly on the fact that you have a Pope. What are you proving by saying you are visible? Is it really something that needs to be argued about so fiercly? or is it just some lame qualifier thrown into the fray that attempts to separate your Church from ours? Because in the end, I don't see what it matters if your Church is physical or not.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

New question, if your Church is indeed "visible" and by visible, I still hold to the idea that the whole "visibility" of your Church lays soly on the fact that you have a Pope. What are you proving by saying you are visible? Is it really something that needs to be argued about so fiercly? or is it just some lame qualifier thrown into the fray that attempts to separate your Church from ours? Because in the end, I don't see what it matters if your Church is physical or not.

I believe Jesus did not leave a disorganized church that is only very loosely held together by some mystical spiritual truth of having the Holy Spirit dwelling in us. If that were the case then Jesus had no need of putting together the Twelve. The Twelve being the twelve Apostles that Jesus chose to establish the New Covenant. This is a very visible thing and not invisible. Because it is visible we also know from scripture that the Apostles taught and that Christians knew that the teachings were true because they came from a church where the Apostles taught. Having a visible and verifiable church is something that God gave us and is evident in scriptures. Paul's writings are the majority of the letters we still have and Paul says to remember all that he taught verbally and written and the way to do that is to learn from the churches where Paul and the other Apostles taught. Visible signs of God's church so we can test all things.

 

[Searching_for_Christ]

But our Churches have authority figures and we are bound by confessions and creeds too. We believe the Church WORLDWIDE is made up of all the believers, and I'm sure the Catholic Church believes this as well. I am still however unsure what you gain by claiming to be visible? If this is all a pope issue then discussions like this are better made about the pope

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

I believe Jesus did not leave a disorganized church that is only very loosely held together by some mystical spiritual truth of having the Holy Spirit dwelling in us.

1. IF the church is physical and visible - take a picture of it and post it here, and your point will be confirmed.

2. ALL denominations have organization, not just yours. Whether such has anything to do with being Christian is another issue, of course (yours just seems to be the mirror image of the Roman government that perhaps created it).




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[JacktheCatholic]

But our Churches have authority figures and we are bound by confessions and creeds too. We believe the Church WORLDWIDE is made up of all the believers, and I'm sure the Catholic Church believes this as well. I am still however unsure what you gain by claiming to be visible? If this is all a pope issue then discussions like this are better made about the pope

Even with some of these "invisible" claims we see the people and these people are not invisible. As Christians we are called to profess Jesus and about Jesus so Jesus will profess to the Father about us. If we are ashamed of Jesus then Jesus will not profess to the Father for us because we deny Him. So, in order to love Jesus we will do as He commanded and in doing so we will be heard and seen. Nothing invisible about that. Of course this line of thinking also covers the Roman Catholic theology on the invisible church.

So, the Church is visible in many ways.

As to which church group to belong and learn from I think scriptures tell us to learn from Apostolic churches, those churches established by the Apostles.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

1. IF the church is physical and visible - take a picture of it and post it here, and your point will be confirmed.

2. ALL denominations have organization, not just yours. Whether such has anything to do with being Christian is another issue, of course (yours just seems to be the mirror image of the Roman government that perhaps created it).




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1. A picture of the Earth should suffice.

2. What I think is important with this, is that we belong to a church founded by an Apostle. After all it is Paul that said to do this in his writings.

 

[Searching_for_Christ]

Even with some of these "invisible" claims we see the people and these people are not invisible.

Fair enough

As Christians we are called to profess Jesus and about Jesus so Jesus will profess to the Father about us. If we are ashamed of Jesus then Jesus will not profess to the Father for us because we deny Him. So, in order to love Jesus we will do as He commanded and in doing so we will be heard and seen.

Do you think its impossible to profess the Lord Jesus without being part of the Catholic Church?

Nothing invisible about that.

Yes this professing is being made by physical people, but are you saying in order for this profession of Christ to be TRULY visible, then we must be part of a Church that is supposedly "visible" ?

So, the Church is visible in many ways.

I would say protestant Churches are all visible in the same ways as the Catholic Church minus only a few things, and those things are only "minus" do to our belief that we don't need it (pope for example)

As to which church group to belong and learn from I think scriptures tell us to learn from Apostolic churches, those churches established by the Apostles.

I'm still on the fence on this one, pray for me.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

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Marriage, IMO, is real. But is it visible? Can you take a picture of it? Is IT - that institution - a visible, physical reality? You can take a picture of my parents (who are married); you can take a picture of their marriage license and certificate, you can take a picture of their rings, you can take a picture of the ceremony: but NONE of those are a picture of MARRIAGE.

I believe the church is real. And I believe the ancient creed is correct - that IT is the one, holy, catholic, communion of SAINTS (of believers) - thus, by definition, it is PEOPLE. IMO, all the authorizations and promises that Jesus gave were to PEOPLE. IMO, the gathering and assembly and commune and community of PEOPLE is, by definition, PEOPLE. Can you see people? Yes - and you can see what they do. But can you "see" the church? No more than you can "see" marriage. The comparison, of course, breaks down at one point: you can objectively confirm who is married because it is typically a LEGAL contract with a LEGAL document (regardless of what the two feel or practice or believe), such is not the case with being a Christian (and thus, part of His communion of believers).





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