My Problem with the Invisible Church

[Searching_for_Christ]

...but all of the individual churches are not united under one and the same visible head.

Why does that matter?

 

[razeontherock]

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C'mon, you got a funnier picture of them than that!

 

[Montalban]

The problem with not seeing it is one can't go out into the world and say "Join this church which we're not entirely sure who's in it, or exacrtly what we believe"

 

[Montalban]

Why does that matter?

God desires unity

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

God desires unity

I agree, but is what He desires a political, structual, institutional unity? As long as we're all officially registered in congregations legally affiliated with the same corporate entity? I don't think so....


Here in GT, the usual emphasis is on doctrinal AGREEMENT: a mental, cognative, brain thing. I don't doubt that it would be nice if 100% of Christians agrees on 100% of all issues 100% of the time - but that's never been the case and I dobut ever will. And of course, your denomination is no better than most - it agrees with NONE but itself, it has "agreement" ONLY and exclusively and solely and uniquely with ITSELF. And even that is only official, formal, institutional, and in those matters that itself alone currently regards as good to agree upon. IF it's doctrinal unity you seek - start with your own denomination - it has as much work to do in this regard as just about any other denomination you might mention; "those in glass houses shouldn't throw rocks."





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[CaliforniaJosiah]

The problem with not seeing it is one can't go out into the world and say "Join this church which we're not entirely sure who's in it, or exacrtly what we believe"

Of course, who knows who is Catholic or Othodox? Yes, I suppose one can often check to see if they are officially registered in a congregation which is legally a member of a corporate entity (and no other), a POLITICAL association. But, obviously, that says very little (or nothing) about their faith, heart, belief or life; pretty meaningless. My brother is a registered Republican but typically votes for Democrates - is he thus Republican?

I think you, like the Pharisees, are focused on the external, the political, the institutional. What matters is what's inside, what's in our heart and soul.



That's my perspective....


Pax


- Josiah




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[Rdr Iakovos]

Of course, who knows who is Catholic or Othodox? Yes, I suppose one can often check to see if they are officially registered in a congregation which is legally a member of a corporate entity (and no other), a POLITICAL association. But, obviously, that says very little (or nothing) about their faith, heart, belief or life; pretty meaningless. My brother is a registered Republican but typically votes for Democrates - is he thus Republican?

I think you, like the Pharisees, are focused on the external, the political, the institutional. What matters is what's inside, what's in our heart and soul.



That's my perspective....


Pax


- Josiah




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It's not the building that matters- it's the blue print. Wrap yourself in it and stay warm.

Inside of the EO communion there are wheat and tares- the Lord said there would be. Your 'logic' is as follows:

There may be tares in your field. Therefore, fields are quite unnecessary. Plant in the road, on your roof- whatever YOU think seems good...in the process of arbitration, of course.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

I agree, but is what He desires a political, structual, institutional unity? As long as we're all officially registered in congregations legally affiliated with the same corporate entity? I don't think so....


Here in GT, the usual emphasis is on doctrinal AGREEMENT: a mental, cognative, brain thing. I don't doubt that it would be nice if 100% of Christians agrees on 100% of all issues 100% of the time - but that's never been the case and I dobut ever will. And of course, your denomination is no better than most - it agrees with NONE but itself, it has "agreement" ONLY and exclusively and solely and uniquely with ITSELF. And even that is only official, formal, institutional, and in those matters that itself alone currently regards as good to agree upon. IF it's doctrinal unity you seek - start with your own denomination - it has as much work to do in this regard as just about any other denomination you might mention; "those in glass houses shouldn't throw rocks."

It's not the building that matters- it's the blue print.

Please copy this physical, visible blueprint here - the blueprint that is Christianity and is the communion of saint.

Inside of the EO communion there are wheat and tares- the Lord said there would be.

Yes, so you have no basis to say that 100% of Christians not agreeing 100% of the time on 100% of all issues thus indicates that it is not the church. Whether you look at just your singular denomination or at the whole of the church.


IMO, you are similar to the Pharisees: focused on the OUTSIDE, the appearances, the institutions, on politics and the power of men. I think what matters is what is in our heart, soul and lives; it may not be as outwardly "visible" by being able to reflect light in a way that our human sense of vision can detect, but I think it is far more important and is the issue that matters.




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[ivebeenshown]

IMO, you are similar to the Pharisees: focused on the OUTSIDE, the appearances, the institutions, on politics and the power of men. I think what matters is what is in our heart, soul and lives; it may not be as outwardly "visible" by being able to reflect light in a way that our human sense of vision can detect, but I think it is far more important and is the issue that matters.

A city on a hill cannot be hidden. You know, the New Jerusalem -- the Church.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

A city on a hill cannot be hidden. You know, the New Jerusalem -- the Church.

I would agree with that. I just can't picture it being strictly in Rome for some reason ehehe

Young) Hebrews 12:22 But ye came to Mount Zion, and to a city of the living God, to the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of messengers,
23 to the company and assembly of the first-born in heaven enrolled, and to God the judge of all, and to spirits of righteous men made perfect,
24 and to a mediator of a new covenant--Jesus, and to blood of sprinkling, speaking better things than that of Abel!

 

[sunlover1]

God desires unity

Where the brothers dwell in unity...
He commands His blessing there


And when we work as one:
The LORD said, "Behold, they are one people, and they all have the same
language. And this is what they began to do, and now nothing which they
purpose to do will be impossible for them.

Nothing we can't do as one!

 

[brinny]

I would agree with that. I just can't picture it being strictly in Rome for some reason ehehe

Young) Hebrews 12:22 But ye came to Mount Zion, and to a city of the living God, to the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of messengers,
23 to the company and assembly of the first-born in heaven enrolled, and to God the judge of all, and to spirits of righteous men made perfect,
24 and to a mediator of a new covenant--Jesus, and to blood of sprinkling, speaking better things than that of Abel!

is that gloriously BEAUTIFUL, or what???? Great Bible verses, by the way.

 

[brinny]

Ok, thinkin' out loud here......loving God with all that is in us....well there ya go...got that, n' ev'rything else just falls into place, by His inexplicable grace.....reminds me of this verse, this gloriously beautiful verse:

"And above all things have fervent love for one another, for “love will cover a multitude of sins." ~I Peter 4:8

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

is that gloriously BEAUTIFUL, or what???? Great Bible verses, by the way.

I felt that pic of the NJ looked too much like the Gold Dome of the Muslims, but when I saw that pic, it reminded me of Matt 7/Reve22....I am losing my mind!

Matt 7:13 Enter ye thru the cramped Gate, that broad the Gate and spacious the Way the one leading-away into the destruction and many are the ones entering thru it.
14 That cramped the Gate and having been constricted the Way, the one leading-away into the Life and few are the ones finding it.

Revelation 22:14 Happy the ones rinsing the robes of them,
that it shall be the authority of them on the wood of the Life and to the Gates they may be entering into the City.

 

[brinny]

LOL love it! A gate wif attitude

 

[Rdr Iakovos]

Please copy this physical, visible blueprint here - the blueprint that is Christianity and is the communion of saint.






Yes, so you have no basis to say that 100% of Christians not agreeing 100% of the time on 100% of all issues thus indicates that it is not the church. Whether you look at just your singular denomination or at the whole of the church.

Sure. It is found here blueletterbible.org
The blueprint is there.
Your pastor can explain it to you, if it seems confusing.

IMO, you are similar to the Pharisees: focused on the OUTSIDE, the appearances, the institutions, on politics and the power of men. I think what matters is what is in our heart, soul and lives; it may not be as outwardly "visible" by being able to reflect light in a way that our human sense of vision can detect, but I think it is far more important and is the issue that matters.

Interesting.All of this ad hominem reveals the true poverty of your argument.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Sure. It is found here blueletterbible.org
The blueprint is there.
.

I couldn't make much out it and I couldn't find your denomination mentioned there. Just copy/paste this visible church to here. If it's visible and physical, that should be very simple. Just give a post - and show us the Church - so we can see it.




.

 

[WarriorAngel]

What Churches should have to run efficiently and conducive to the members.

Altars [obviously]
Space [to congregate]
Doctrines [to have truth]
Leaders [as Christ chose 12]

IF these things are repulsive, and anarchy sounds better - and your comfortable with confusion and meanderings...then dont join a Church which is organized and knows what she has always believed.

 

[Dorothea]

Ok, thinkin' out loud here......loving God with all that is in us....well there ya go...got that, n' ev'rything else just falls into place, by His inexplicable grace.....reminds me of this verse, this gloriously beautiful verse:

"And above all things have fervent love for one another, for “love will cover a multitude of sins." ~I Peter 4:8

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

.

How does one see a corporation? Can you see Microsoft? Yeah - you can see the founder, you can see it's article of incorporation, you can see its products, you can see its headquarters, you can see all its people - but can you see Microsoft?

How does one "see" the LDS? Yeah - you can see pictures of its founder, you can see it's article of incorporation (even the first one, from with 10 years or so of when it claims Jesus founded it via His Apostle Smith), you can see its products and publications, you can its headquarters, you can see all its people - but can you see The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints?

I don't think it's POSSIBLE to see the RCC denomination. So, how does that make IT the "visible" denomination (unlike the other 49,999)? What is unique about the RCC one that makes it more "visible" than the LDS denomination (or any other one might name)?

And why does what really matter all external, visible things - such as photographs, legal documents, identifiable leaders (such as the president of my denomination), membership lists, etc. - why is THAT what's important (and evidently NOT faith or love or Christ)? Why the Pharisical emphasis on EXTERNALS, the OUTSIDE?



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