My Problem with the Invisible Church

[tadoflamb]

Then those of the invisible church will have to use invisible ink in their post

Either way, it makes just about as much sense.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Either way, it makes just about as much sense.

Hmmm....I suppose

http://www.christianforums.com/t7440920/
The "Visible Church," where is it?

 

[ForceofTime]

Presto Changeo?

Gen 45:3 And Joseph said unto his brethren, I am Joseph; doth my father yet live? And his brethren could not answer him; for they were troubled at his presence.

 

[heymikey80]

Either way, it makes just about as much sense.

I'm good with that. As the Roman Catholic church -- ekklesia -- congregation -- is not itself congregated in one place, it's not visible.

Therefore it doesn't exist.

(Yes, I know -- but the reification argument of this thread has reached a similar extent of implausibility.)

 

[Searching_for_Christ]

I personally want to know what makes the Catholic Church different? The Protestants and their "invisible" Church which we claim is made up of all the believers on this earth. NOW..The Catholic Church wouldn't disagree that the Church is made up of its believers..what I don't understand, is how is yours visible yet ours isn't? is it the Church's themselves? well we got Churches too. Is it purly defined as the Church that has the pope? the pope being the visible symbol of the Church? how does that change anything? I could point to John McArthur (as an example) and say "There is a leader of Protestant Christianity..our Church is visible" so I ask what is it that the Catholic Church has that makes it so visible, yet the Protestant Church is lacking that makes it invisible?

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

It's invisible. I can't see it.

... kind of like RCC "Tradition" and "authority."

... kind of like Christ.


In MY opinion, the church that is one, holy, catholic, communion of saints is made up of saints, of believers, of people. All the believers I personally know are people, thus the "gathering" "assembly" of such is also people. As far as I can tell, all the promises and authorizations Jesus gave were to people - never once to an invisible denomination such as the RCC or LDS (claims of such alone for self alone notwithstanding).





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[tadoflamb]

I personally want to know what makes the Catholic Church different? The Protestants and their "invisible" Church which we claim is made up of all the believers on this earth. NOW..The Catholic Church wouldn't disagree that the Church is made up of its believers..what I don't understand, is how is yours visible yet ours isn't? is it the Church's themselves? well we got Churches too. Is it purly defined as the Church that has the pope? the pope being the visible symbol of the Church? how does that change anything? I could point to John McArthur (as an example) and say "There is a leader of Protestant Christianity..our Church is visible" so I ask what is it that the Catholic Church has that makes it so visible, yet the Protestant Church is lacking that makes it invisible?

I also believe in an invisible Church which is similar in definition as the protestant one. However, I believe that Christ instituted a visible, authoritive Church which is easy to recognize and approach.

To wit, there is no such thing as the 'Protestant Church' which exists as a visible and authoritive institution. To use your example of Jmac, he could only be considered a leader or authority figure to a small segment of protestantism.

If there is such thing as the Protestant Church, then where is it? Where can I access their deposit of faith?

 

[tadoflamb]

...


In MY opinion, the church that is one, holy, catholic, communion of saints is made up of saints, of believers, of people. All the believers I personally know are people, thus the "gathering" "assembly" of such is also people. As far as I can tell, all the promises and authorizations Jesus gave were to people - never once to an invisible denomination such as the RCC or LDS (claims of such alone for self alone notwithstanding).

Behold, the triumph of the individual!

 

[ivebeenshown]

I personally want to know what makes the Catholic Church different?

The Catholic Church boasts a hierarchical organization. While the Body of Christ is united spiritually and invisibly, it is also united physically and visibly in its governmental structure.

 

[Searching_for_Christ]

The Catholic Church boasts a hierarchical organization. While the Body of Christ is united spiritually and invisibly, it is also united physically and visibly in its governmental structure.

the Eastern Orthodox boast the same thing, is their Church visible or invisible?

 

[Searching_for_Christ]

I also believe in an invisible Church which is similar in definition as the protestant one. However, I believe that Christ instituted a visible, authoritive Church which is easy to recognize and approach.

Protestant Churches can be easy to recognize and approach as well.

To wit, there is no such thing as the 'Protestant Church' which exists as a visible and authoritive institution. To use your example of Jmac, he could only be considered a leader or authority figure to a small segment of protestantism.

There may not be a thing actually called "The protestant Church" There are however Churches within the protestant tradition, and just because they are "small" doesn't mean that they can't be recognized in the form the Catholic Church is.

 

[ivebeenshown]

the Eastern Orthodox boast the same thing, is their Church visible or invisible?

All I can say is that they are not united under one visible head and that is doubtful to me.

 

[Searching_for_Christ]

All I can say is that they are not united under one visible head and that is doubtful to me.

But they have a hierarchy. A Heirarchy is one of those things pointed out to me as something needed for a visible Church. However if the Orothodox having a Hierarchy isn't good enough, then what it LITERALLY seems to boil down to, is that you have a pope, and we don't....no?

 

[sunlover1]

All I can say is that they are not united under one visible head and that is doubtful to me.

God is their head?

 

[ivebeenshown]

God is their head?

God is, since the ascension, invisible.

 

[Searching_for_Christ]

God is, since the ascension, invisible.

Despite the the whole pope thing, even your Church is headed by the Lord. His being "invisible" shouldn't mean anything.

 

[ivebeenshown]

Despite the the whole pope thing, even your Church is headed by the Lord. His being "invisible" shouldn't mean anything.

It means he is invisible. The churches you mentioned are not united under a visible head. That is all I was saying.

 

[Searching_for_Christ]

It means he is invisible. The churches you mentioned are not united under a visible head. That is all I was saying.

Sure they are. Every Church is united under a pastor, preacher ect. But like I have asked, is this all boiling down to "we got a pope and you don't" argument?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Sure they are. Every Church is united under a pastor, preacher ect. But like I have asked, is this all boiling down to "we got a pope and you don't" argument?

I think their pope and how he is elected is rather kewl

http://www.christianforums.com/t7430430-9/#post53868229
election of Pope and smoke

Black smoke rises from the chimney of the Sistine Chapel meaning that cardinals failed to elect a new pope in the first ballot of their secret conclave at the Vatican City.[AFP]

 

[ivebeenshown]

Sure they are. Every Church is united under a pastor, preacher etc.

...but all of the individual churches are not united under one and the same visible head.