My problem with Evangelical Christianity

[bling]

After such replies by the fire and brimstone brigade, I have certainly had reservations about contributing any more to this site.

I think I explained in post 14?

 

[Mequa]

Furthermore, you've had a friend die. Not to take away from that, but I have had family members die, even some that were at best lapsed in their faith. Where they are right now, I don't know. I don't know what happened in that last 30 seconds of their conscious lives. One was even younger than me - it's a trip to remember when someone was kicking inside of her mother's womb, when you heard about the birth, when you saw her being baptized, when you remember growing up together, when you remember how you felt when she started taking the wrong path, when you saw her take first communion, when you see her son at holidays, and you don't see her. Please do not make me out to be someone who does not know the pain of loss, or someone who does not take other people's losses to heart. You carry the memory of your friend. This is one of the memories that I carry.

And yet, you seem strangely nonchalant at not only the prospect of your "lost" loved ones facing conscious eternal torture, but also at the value judgement that that is somehow totally right and just.

Be honest with me: Does that belief really bring you peace in your soul? Can you place your hand on your heart and affirm the above without feeling pain and anguish?

Or are you so deadened of human compassion by dogma that the prospect of the conscious eternal torture of a deceased loved one doesn't fill you with inner turmoil and strife, and that you honestly have no qualms whatsoever concerning the rightness and justness of such a judicial process?

 

[Sketcher]

And yet, you seem strangely nonchalant at not only the prospect of your "lost" loved ones facing conscious eternal torture, but also at the value judgement that that is somehow totally right and just.

Be honest with me: Does that belief really bring you peace in your soul? Can you place your hand on your heart and affirm the above without feeling pain and anguish?

Or are you so deadened of human compassion by dogma that the prospect of the conscious eternal torture of a deceased loved one doesn't fill you with inner turmoil and strife, and that you honestly have no qualms whatsoever concerning the rightness and justness of such a judicial process?

And you accuse me of not having empathy. I at least have the decency to not press the topic when I know someone is hurting.

Like I said, I don't know where she is. Wherever she is, I can't do anything about it. I'll either see her again after my time has come, or I will not. God is right in all his ways, so wherever she is, God didn't make a mistake.

 

[Mequa]

Like I said, I don't know where she is. Wherever she is, I can't do anything about it. I'll either see her again after my time has come, or I will not. God is right in all his ways, so wherever she is, God didn't make a mistake.

So you admit God bears the responsibility for overseeing a system whereby all atheists face conscious eternal torture, including any friends who died young as atheists, and you consider this to be completely right and just?

Hand on heart?

 

[Messy]

So you admit God bears the responsibility for overseeing a system whereby all atheists face conscious eternal torture, including any friends who died young as atheists, and you consider this to be completely right and just?

Hand on heart?

I think noone can deal with it. How I deal with it, I just pray for souls and believe God showes them in time, even just before they die, that they need Him. There's a lot of NDE's of atheists who became a christian after the experience. One from Ian McCormack, his mother prayed, he died and just before he died he heard a Voice that taught him the sinner's prayer and he went to heaven. Since I saw that movie I pray for souls on the edge of eternity and believe they get saved. I was in a very extreme evangelical church for a year where we went on the street and they'd just tell people: repent or you go to hell, now I told you, my task is done, if you don't accept Him, not my fault, what do I care? Buh bye! I really got problems with all that hell preaching. When I saw Ian McCormack it helped me. It is terrible, but God is able to save people. I had a collegue, he made fun of me being a christian. I Always ate with him with lunch and all of a sudden I heard he got shot and later it turned out he committed suicide. One christian collegue was like: but luckily he's in heaven now and I thought: hmmmm and just blocked him out of my head. Even thinking it might be different is too extreme. 2 years later I got a dream and he came to the office and he held my hand and he had new clothes and he told me he was a christian, he got saved two years ago and I cried and said: Why didn't they tell me? I thought you were dead. I woke up, I didn't remember when he died, had to look it up, it was exactly two years ago. That's what keeps me sane. If Hitler is in hell I don't care, all other people 1 Timothy says pray for all man for God wants them all saved, so that's what I do.
Saying something like that about your friend is heartless. I never heard something like that in the normal evangelical churches where I have come.

 

[oi_antz]

I was traumatised by Evangelical Christians in my early 20s, [...]

They showed me very little empathy or compassion in their dogmatic attitudes, especially considering my grief. [...]

I personally find beliefs like the above and the associated bigotry quite toxic, myself. [...]

It is really horrible and hurtful to clearly be told that [...]

I do consider it quite a mean-spirited idea though, personally, to suppose that [...]

I was deeply wounded by Evangelical Christians, [...]

My experience with Evangelicals/Fundamentalists (they called themselves both) definitely left a scar though. [...]

I will not be converting to Christianity (in any form) any time soon though. I am quite confident as an atheist myself now.

I thought I would share my experiences here, to get a different perspective.


Kind regards,

Mequa

Hello Mequa,

I hope it is ok for me to show you this. It is a pattern I see. "They said things that hurt me, they did not show love or compassion, or seem to care about me or the people I care about, and because they said this is God's opinion, now I don't believe in God".

Seriously, these people are probably some sort of [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]. Jesus warns us this, and it is not authentic Christian teaching. But I am not saying I am less of a sinner than them for trying to avoid making such judgements. You only wanted to see another point of view, and I think you should. Christian's aren't better than non-Christians, they have generally only accepted their faultiness at the same time as being confronted by the message of salvation in Christ. This is really not a good reason to think their sin is any more forgiven than someone who has not been there and done that.

You sound like a competent thinker. You should stop inflicting yourself for their sake. Accept that they have issues and what they do with preaching is done to gratify them, but look into why you aren't able to sort this out with God. You can't really blame anyone else for that. If you had a weak mentality, I would have a different opinion. But I am observing you have sufficient mentality to rise above it and I think you would achieve better things by concentrating on that.

 

[Sketcher]

So you admit God bears the responsibility for overseeing a system whereby all atheists face conscious eternal torture, including any friends who died young as atheists, and you consider this to be completely right and just?

Hand on heart?

It is completely right and just for the damned to be damned. It is better for people to turn from their sins, accept the means of God's forgiveness, and not be damned.

 

[aiki]

My problem with Evangelical Christianity

I was traumatised by Evangelical Christians in my early 20s, at my university's Student Union. They told me a friend who died age 20 is going to Hell. And that not believing in their doctrines will lead to conscious eternal torture.

This isn't just what "evangelical Christianity" teaches, it is what the Bible teaches. Evangelical Christians are merely communicating what is revealed in Scripture. If you don't like this teaching, your problem is with the divine Author of it, not just evangelical Christians.

Evangelical Christians told me my atheist friend who died in a car accident age 20 is facing conscious eternal torment for his lack of faith. They showed me very little empathy or compassion in their dogmatic attitudes, especially considering my grief.

That's really unfortunate. It can be hard to balance fidelity to the hard truths of God's Word with a sensitivity to people's pain when part of the pain they feel comes from the hard truths of God's Word. But a follower of Christ shows no real love when they carry on as though the hard truths can be ignored or set aside just because a person is hurting. A person's pain must never trump God's truth - especially if their eternal destiny hangs in the balance.

I heard that Elaine Pagels left Evangelical Christianity for the exact same reason. A non-Christian friend died (in his case Jewish), and she was told they are in Hell, so she left Evangelicalism. That belief no longer resonated with her, nor seemed reasonable.

It happens.

I am now an atheist myself. I personally find beliefs like the above and the associated bigotry quite toxic, myself. The notion of conscious eternal torture based on a thought crime is effectively positing and glorifying a cosmic tyrant. It is really horrible and hurtful to clearly be told that a friend of mine who died young is now going to spend eternity in an infinity of pain. No matter how irrational that belief may be.

Well, you're entitled to your opinion, of course. Do you have a struggle about which you wanted Christian advice? Or did you just come here to bash evangelical Christians?

As an atheist I derive immense comfort from the idea that all pain and suffering ends at death, no matter what morally evil deeds a person committed during their lifetime, or whatever their belief system. This is also a Biblical principle, though: "The wages of sin is death" (Romans 6:23).

As a Christian, I find the atheist idea of life ending at the grave obscene and a cause for profound moral apathy and despair. The atheist's view of death means there is no ultimate justice, that some evil people really do "get away with it." Their view means also that the end of a moral, self-sacrificing, good life is identical to the end of an immoral, selfish, and evil life. Whether one is a Mother Theresa or a Hitler, the final end is the same. How repugnant! And what a cause for moral apathy and philosophical despair!

My view is, as Epicurus taught, true salvation is found through abandoning the fear and desire of an afterlife reward and punishment and fear of a wrathful deity, which weighs heavily on the psyche (mind/soul), and embracing a naturalistic worldview, together with following an ideal of life, health and inner peace in which terror of divine judgement and punishment (and the need for afterlife hopes) need have no place.

No surprise here...

Thus I cannot accept the fear of Hell as rational, given its lack of empirical grounding combined with obvious use to control, manipulate and emotionally blackmail people, stirring up neurotic fears of Hell which conflict with genuine imperturable inner peace, or ataraxia.

So, basically you're saying the doctrine of hell is irrational because it makes you uncomfortable. This is not good reasoning, I'm afraid.

As far as empirical grounding is concerned, well, I wonder if you're aware that science itself rests on several brute assumptions for which there is no "empirical grounding." In light of this being true, you can't legitimately point a critical finger at the Christian believer in regard to a lack of empirical grounding for their belief in hell since empirical science, the ironically philosophical refuge of the naturalist, is not empirically grounded, either.

I thus derive comfort from a naturalistic worldview in which the horrifying prospect concerning my friend's proposed infinity of pain, as put forward by Evangelical Christian dogma, is confidently viewed as an improbable hypothesis.

All I see is bias and Strawman argument in operation here, not reason. You seem to me to have little reason to be comfortable with atheistic naturalism.

I do consider it quite a mean-spirited idea though, personally, to suppose that a person not following their faith gets conscious eternal torture and this is somehow right and just.

Again, a Strawman at work here. It isn't the evangelical Christian with whom you have a problem; it is the Bible from which the doctrine of hell is derived that is your real opponent. It isn't the evangelical Christian who is "mean-spirited" but the God who punishes unrepentant sinners with eternal punishment.

No one is forcing you to accept the Christian worldview. If it is repulsive to you, ignore it.

In my view, infinite punishment for finite sins (including inherited Original Sin) makes no sense and feels quite evil, is rooted in vengeance and hatred not corrective justice, and would in fact not be justice by any reasonable standard.

Uh, yeah... Well, for one, God does not punish people with eternal hell because they sinned against another person, but because their sin is always ultimately against their infinite Creator. No sin is every merely "finite" when it is committed against the infinite God of the universe.

God has created all that exists and sustains it moment-by-moment. Every human being is utterly dependent upon God for their existence. Yet, most are determined to live as though this is not so. God transcends the universe; He is infinite in being and His power and knowledge is vastly beyond our understanding. Yet, we think we should be free to do as we want and God should mind His own business. What impossible hubris! What dumbfounding vanity! What deep wickedness to think that the God upon whom we totally depend for our existence should do as we think He ought to do! Truly, such thinking (and the rebellious, sinful behaviour it spawns) deserves the terrible punishment God renders upon it.

It always makes me shake my head when a person suggests God's justice is not truly justice. How do these people arrive at this conclusion? It seems God's justice is not justice only because it doesn't agree perfectly with the person's own idea of justice. By itself, this reason for objecting to God's justice is entirely unreasonable.

Not even so much vengeance as some malevolent sadism, for a God to oversee the existence of such a Hell for all non-believers as he sits on his throne - almost like a sadistic kid with an ant farm enjoying roasting his ants live over a fire.

Oh, brother! STRAWMAN! I get that you are offended by the doctrine of hell, but this is just getting silly. Why not just slough off the idea of hell as the nonsense you say it is and move on. Why make the investment of time and energy to deride a belief you think is groundless? What difference does it make if a Christian thinks you are going to hell? There is no hell, right? So who cares?! Eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow you die! Don't waste your time on here venting against a religious illusion!

Anyway, I hope my views do not cause too much offence here. I was deeply wounded by Evangelical Christians, and they did seem to be very heavy on dogma and light on compassion, in my unfortunate experience. Some of them have attempted to shut down dialogue before when I mentioned the issues I raise on this thread, such as my experience with my friend, in a way I felt lacked integrity. I hope I will not have such issues here.

You reap what you sow. If you want a civil, pleasant exchange, you might want to ease up on the nasty characterizations of Christians and their beliefs.

I do hope I can still get on with people of different beliefs here, despite my issues, and not allow religion to come between friendships.

You haven't created with this antagonistic post of yours fertile ground upon which to do so.

My experience with Evangelicals/Fundamentalists (they called themselves both) definitely left a scar though. Although I must admit, I am wary of considering myself personal friends with a person who thinks it is right and just that I face conscious eternal torture in Hell. Even if I personally consider that belief to be absurd, the value judgement that me being tortured forever is right, and that of friends too, does feel hateful. It seems quite a source of bigotry.

Talk like this doesn't foster positive dialogue. If you truly want good interactions, you can't plead for it in one breath and then slam those with whom you want such interaction in your next breath.

I will not be converting to Christianity (in any form) any time soon though. I am quite confident as an atheist myself now.

I thought I would share my experiences here, to get a different perspective.

Uh huh.

Kind regards,

Mequa

 

[Mequa]

You reap what you sow. If you want a civil, pleasant exchange, you might want to ease up on the nasty characterizations of Christians and their beliefs.

And yet Jesus teaches to turn the other cheek and not retaliate against apparent insult. Particularly when you are representing the faith, as you clearly are now.

It seems you are offended and insulted by my frank rejection of your belief system, and are thus behaving in an unchristian manner through a complete absence of empathy or compassion. This is typical for fundamentalists in my experience.

To be honest, you don't seem to be a sincere disciple of Christ in your conduct. Christ taught to rejoice when persecuted and bless those you feel persecuted by, to turn the other cheek and not return evil for evil, and to manifest humility, love and compassion to all fellow sinners.

I won't bother responding to the numerous straw men in the above post. I don't reject Hell because it's an unpleasant idea, I reject such claims due to finding them not credible. The same goes for the authority and inerrancy of the Bible.

You did say though that the idea of evil people getting away with it in the end is more horrifying to you than the idea of some humans being tortured forever. I find that idea a product of impotent vengefulness and hatred as Nietzsche pointed out, which is ironic as Jesus condemned taking revenge.

If you sincerely hate your fellow human beings so much that you think it would be benevolent for a deity to oversee their conscious eternal torture, then I honestly feel sorry for you and the hate and bitterness in your soul.

If you think everyone who isn't a Christian rightly gets tortured forever and this is right and deserved for the evil thought crime of rejecting Christ (plus inherited sin), then you are a bigot. What a horrifying, disgusting doctrine of hatred, to devalue human lives that much to think a person deserves an infinity and eternity of pain and suffering for being naughty and not blindly believing in unsubstantiated dogmas.

Now, I've certainly hated other humans before enough to want them to die, but to fantasise about their eternal torture to get a satisfying sense of justice - that sounds quite neurotically hateful, a product of a mind absolutely simmering in resentment and envy towards "evil" people. To enjoy the prospect of other people burning in Hell. As quotes from theologians have demonstrated, such a perverse sense of Schadenfreude from pondering the conscious eternal torture of people you don't like is very much a part of the Christian tradition of fire and brimstone.

 

[aiki]

And yet Jesus teaches to turn the other cheek and not retaliate against apparent insult. Particularly when you are representing the faith, as you clearly are now.

And Jesus was also the one who called people on their sin and described the Pharisees as hypocrites, vipers, white-washed tombs, sons of hell and so on. Clearly, if we are following Jesus' example, there is a place for calling a spade and spade and shining the light on what is evil - even if it offends. This is exactly what I did with your post (and very gently, I might add).

It seems you are offended and insulted by my frank rejection of your belief system,

Not really. I am, though, concerned about your abuse of this forum, making it a platform for venting your vitriolic antagonism toward evangelical Christianity rather than using it for its stated purpose, which is to share your struggles with Christians in order that they may offer Christian support to you (ie prayer, biblical advice, etc).

and are thus behaving in an unchristian manner through a complete absence of empathy or compassion. This is typical for fundamentalists in my experience.

Yeah, this show-me-empathy-or-compassion-by-my-definition-or-you-aren't-a-Christian stuff is a rather transparent attempt to control and manipulate the conversation to suit yourself. Its a typical but illegitimate strategy for atheists, in my experience.

To be honest, you don't seem to be a sincere disciple of Christ in your conduct.

Well, fortunately, your opinion isn't the one that counts. God sees my heart and knows what my true intentions are (quite unlike you who has a bitter agenda coloring his perception).

Christ taught to rejoice when persecuted and bless those you feel persecuted by, to turn the other cheek and not return evil for evil, and to manifest humility, love and compassion to all fellow sinners.

Yes, he did. He also threw the money-changers out of the temple, he publicly and severely castigated the religious leaders of his day, he went about telling people to "go and sin no more," he taught of a hell to shun and a heaven to gain, and warned the wicked to flee God's wrathful judgement. From what you've written in this thread, you'd have been one of the people to whom Christ offered his warnings and criticisms.

I won't bother responding to the numerous straw men in the above post. I don't reject Hell because it's an unpleasant idea, I reject such claims due to finding them not credible. The same goes for the authority and inerrancy of the Bible.

Well, you're an avowed atheist so you would, wouldn't you. "Finding them not credible" is a far cry from proving they are not credible.

You did say though that the idea of evil people getting away with it in the end is more horrifying to you than the idea of some humans being tortured forever. I find that idea a product of impotent vengefulness and hatred as Nietzsche pointed out, which is ironic as Jesus condemned taking revenge.

See, this is the problem you run into when, as an atheist, you try to use the Bible as a tool in your arguments. You just end up showing how little you know of the Bible.

Hebrews 10:30-31
30 For we know Him who said, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay," says the Lord. And again, "The Lord will judge His people."
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Nietsche (and you) hold to a philosophy that is very anti-justice and that promotes moral apathy and despair. Nietsche decries hatred and vengefulness and offers the futility and emptiness of nihilism instead. He's not the sort I would cite as a good foil to Christianity.

If you sincerely hate your fellow human beings so much that you think it would be benevolent for a deity to oversee their conscious eternal torture, then I honestly feel sorry for you and the hate and bitterness in your soul.

See, here is another of your attempts to argue in Strawman fashion. I don't hate my fellow man at all. I urge them as often as I can to take the way of salvation, the way of escape, God offers them in the Saviour, Jesus Christ. No one has to go to hell. As C.S. Lewis pointed out, the door to hell is locked from the inside. Anyone who wishes to be saved from the eternal consequences of their sin may be. Where is the mean spirit in this? Where is the maniacal torturer you would paint God to be in the truth of salvation? God was under no obligation to save any of us from our sin, but, at great cost to Himself, He made a way for us all to live in eternal, joyful fellowship with Himself. Rather puts a serious crimp in the dark picture of God you're wanting to paint. Monstrous torturers don't offer salvation.

If you think everyone who isn't a Christian rightly gets tortured forever and this is right and deserved for the evil thought crime of rejecting Christ (plus inherited sin), then you are a bigot.

Throwing pejorative labels around doesn't help your position any. In your own way, you are just as bigoted against Christians as you want to assert that I am toward all non-believers. But you don't see me throwing that fact at you, do you?

What a horrifying, disgusting doctrine of hatred, to devalue human lives that much to think a person deserves an infinity and eternity of pain and suffering for being naughty and not blindly believing in unsubstantiated dogmas.

LOL! Your bias is showing - and your ignorance. See above.

Selah.

 

[Mequa]

You reap what you sow. If you want a civil, pleasant exchange, you might want to ease up on the nasty characterizations of Christians and their beliefs.

A person is responsible for their own hostility, to behave in a reactive manner and then pin the blame on me for your and others' own hostile behaviour is not only lacking in personal accountability, but not Christ-like either, and thus not really demonstrating the fruits of the spirit you claim to prize.

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven." - Matthew 7:21

If you take seriously what Jesus says about Hell, then I also suggest you take seriously what he says to the Pharisees.

I get the sense you are trying hard to make me feel unwelcome here. Not really the Christ-like spirit in representing the faith either.

Throwing pejorative labels around doesn't help your position any. In your own way, you are just as bigoted against Christians as you want to assert that I am toward all non-believers. But you don't see me throwing that fact at you, do you?

That is incorrect. I do not assert that "Christians" (by which you mean fundamentalists) rightly and justly get conscious eternal torture as a consequence of the thought crime of disagreeing with me. To consider my stance as bigoted against "Christians" makes little sense in light of the fact that fundamentalists really do think it is right and just that I and others get conscious eternal torture as a consequence of the thought crime of disagreeing with them.

My stance is not bigoted, but that stance is. To recognise it as bigotry does not consist of bigotry. The fact that pointing out bigotry might inflict narcissistic injury does not justify hostility in response, particularly from one claiming to follow the ethics of Jesus.

I prefer the Gospel of Thomas to fundamentalist Christianity. This quote, for example, is something I would say makes far more sense in terms of a form of salvation than relying on someone bleeding on a cross:

"If you bring forth what is within you, what you bring forth will save you. If you do not bring forth what is within you, what you do not bring forth will destroy you."

Jungian psychology has interpreted that as facing the Shadow self, one's dark side which is cut off from one's conscious awareness. "Salvation" consists of knowing yourself and acting wisely, not blind belief in dogmas and dependence on dogmas of substitutionary atonement.

Interpreted as a framework, the fundamentalist Christian model is one of Middle Eastern barbarism, one of rancour and authoritarian tyranny. God sacrificing himself to himself as a loophole to get his creation off the hook for disproportionate punishment for breaking rules he created, while only giving this benefit to people based on belief in a proposition, makes no rational sense I am afraid.


Anyway, I do bless you for your faith. Stay true to your principles as I will to mine.

 

[oi_antz]

I get the sense you are trying hard to make me feel unwelcome here.

It doesn't look that way to me. Aiki is quite direct, he is correcting you.

God sacrificing himself to himself as a loophole to get his creation off the hook for disproportionate punishment for breaking rules he created, while only giving this benefit to people based on belief in a proposition, makes no rational sense I am afraid.

I agree. I don't think that is the reason it happened, I think it is a popular way to understand the effect of what happened, as a simple abstraction. Here is what the facts say:

53 Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels? 54 But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way?”

55 In that hour Jesus said to the crowd, “Am I leading a rebellion, that you have come out with swords and clubs to capture me? Every day I sat in the temple courts teaching, and you did not arrest me. 56 But this has all taken place that the writings of the prophets might be fulfilled.” Then all the disciples deserted him and fled.

What this shows is that Jesus had to choose how to respond to this attack. I see He could have defeated with brute force, as He said here. He also could have fled. But He chose to undergo the treatment which the mob determined to inflict. You should also see in Matthew 26:39 that it was not something that He actually wanted.

So I suggest that you should think about the alternatives that He could have chosen at any time, that would have brought about the desired effect in a better way, and then if you believe that His decisions are not the wisest, then I would like to see how you will express that opinion. As it is, I don't think your view is producing a correct opinion, which means that perhaps your opinion is not correct, or perhaps you can relate your opinion to me so I can see it is correct.

 

[aiki]

A person is responsible for their own hostility,

Does this include the hostility that you've shown evangelical Christians in this thread? Doesn't look like it to me...

to behave in a reactive manner and then pin the blame on me for your and others' own hostile behaviour

But this is exactly what you did with those Christians who told you your friend was in hell! You behaved in a "reactive manner" and then blamed the evangelical Christians for your hostility.

...is not only lacking in personal accountability,

I hope you're taking note of your own words here...

...but not Christ-like either, and thus not really demonstrating the fruits of the spirit you claim to prize.

See my last post.

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven." - Matthew 7:21

If you take seriously what Jesus says about Hell, then I also suggest you take seriously what he says to the Pharisees.

LOL! I'm sorry, but you have absolutely no idea from the very brief exchange we've had in this thread how I live my life. You are in no position whatever to suggest that I am not living according to the commands of my Saviour. And you are well beyond the bounds when you threaten me with hell because I am not kowtowing to your rather obnoxious and manipulative posts. Good grief! Do you really think you can threaten me with my own faith? LOL! You understand it so poorly!

I get the sense you are trying hard to make me feel unwelcome here. Not really the Christ-like spirit in representing the faith either.

You are completely welcome here! It is your nasty comments about evangelical Christians and your mischaracterizations of the doctrines of the faith that are not. I'm sure the Pharisees felt much like you do toward me when Jesus took them to task about their words and deeds but that didn't stop Jesus from saying what he said. Likewise, I am not going to cower from confronting you just because you think being Christ-like means letting you be both disrespectful and false in your posts without challenge.

I do not assert that "Christians" (by which you mean fundamentalists)...

No, I don't mean "fundamentalists," I mean Christians. Please don't put words in my mouth.

...rightly and justly get conscious eternal torture as a consequence of the thought crime of disagreeing with me.

This isn't what is required for you to have a bigoted attitude toward them. Comments like the following are what expose your bigotry:

"I am now an atheist myself. I personally find beliefs like the above and the associated bigotry quite toxic, myself. The notion of conscious eternal torture based on a thought crime is effectively positing and glorifying a cosmic tyrant."

So, Christianity is toxic, it is bigoted, and the God that Christians love and serve is a cosmic tyrant. You sound kinda' bigoted to me...

"It is really horrible and hurtful to clearly be told that a friend of mine who died young is now going to spend eternity in an infinity of pain. No matter how irrational that belief may be."

According to you, Christians hold irrational beliefs, which would, by extension, make them irrational, too, for holding them. This sounds bigoted to me...

"Thus I cannot accept the fear of Hell as rational, given its lack of empirical grounding combined with obvious use to control, manipulate and emotionally blackmail people, stirring up neurotic fears of Hell which conflict with genuine imperturable inner peace, or ataraxia."

Again, you charge Christians with irrationality for believing in hell, and you suggest it is a manipulative tool intended to blackmail people through fear of hell. No, you don't sound bigoted at all...

"I do consider it quite a mean-spirited idea though, personally, to suppose that a person not following their faith gets conscious eternal torture and this is somehow right and just."

Here, by implication, you indicate that Christians are mean-spirited, and that their belief in hell is unjust. Shall I go on? It looks pretty clear to me that you suffer from some fairly significant bigotry when it comes to the Christian faith.

To consider my stance as bigoted against "Christians" makes little sense in light of the fact that fundamentalists really do think it is right and just that I and others get conscious eternal torture as a consequence of the thought crime of disagreeing with them.

A Strawman again. This isn't what Christians think at all. Hell has nothing to do with whether or not you agree with Christians but whether or not you agree with the God they serve.

Jungian psychology has interpreted that as facing the Shadow self, one's dark side which is cut off from one's conscious awareness. "Salvation" consists of knowing yourself and acting wisely, not blind belief in dogmas and dependence on dogmas of substitutionary atonement.

Hey, if you want to believe Jung, go ahead. I prefer the God of the Universe myself.

Interpreted as a framework, the fundamentalist Christian model is one of Middle Eastern barbarism, one of rancour and authoritarian tyranny.

Fortunately, your saying so doesn't make it so.

God sacrificing himself to himself as a loophole to get his creation off the hook for disproportionate punishment for breaking rules he created, while only giving this benefit to people based on belief in a proposition, makes no rational sense I am afraid.

Then it's a good thing this isn't what Christianity teaches. Maybe you should actually try reading the Bible without the lens of your bigotry clouding its message. Just a thought.

Anyway, I do bless you for your faith. Stay true to your principles as I will to mine.

Uh huh.

Selah.

 

[Deidre32]

The answer to that is really quite simple. Demonstrate an ability to place yourself in my shoes, such as in the scenario mentioned in the OP. How would you feel if you were personally told that a friend 1) is in Hell, 2) forever, 3) that is right and just? Not coming from your own frame of reference but from mine, having been told that about a personal friend by Evangelical Christians. How would you feel?

Are you able to sincerely place yourself in the frame of reference of someone having such experiences with Evangelical Christianity, and thus how I do not personally perceive it as loving and compassionate?

Or would such an exercise of empathy be both painful and devastating to one's Evangelical faith, and does maintaining such a faith (and in my view, bigotry) therefore depend on not placing oneself in other people's shoes?

The truth of the matter is, NO ONE knows who is in heaven or hell. If a god exists, I was raised to believe (when I was a Christian) that his love is unfathomable. So, even if a god exists, we as mere mortals have no earthly idea as to who could be in heaven or hell.

I scrolled through this entire thread, and I think that what often happens in these debates, is that atheists are interested in objective truths, while theists believe faith is an objective truth. It's not. Faith is based on believing in something of which no actual evidence exists. But, I was once a theist, and I didn't require evidence that would please non-believers, I was happy to believe that a deity who loved me, existed. That's the trouble with these debates, they will always be circular...because atheists and theists are arguing from different points of view.

The thing about this thread that doesn't make sense to me, is that Mequa was merely sharing an experience, and I highly doubt he broad brushes all fundamentalist Christians as being condemning and judgmental. Somehow, it veered off into atheists vs. theists....but such are these debates.

Logically, I'm an atheist, but emotionally, I do sometimes miss the comfort that faith gave to me. But, as a Christian, and I was fervent in my prayer life, I never believed that my faith was based on logic, or objective truths. I just believed, because I felt the Bible was enough for me, at that time.

In the end, no one knows with certainty if a god exists or does not. If the Bible brings you that type of certainty, so be it. It doesn't for atheists. And that is probably the best way I could clarify the differences between the two groups. Mudslinging won't ever change that main difference.

 

[Mequa]

The thing about this thread that doesn't make sense to me, is that Mequa was merely sharing an experience, and I highly doubt he broad brushes all fundamentalist Christians as being condemning and judgmental.

The reason I have such issues with fundamentalists is because of their insulting and condescending reactions to having their ideas challenged. I'm with Korzybski on this one: The map is not the terrain. Criticising ideas purporting to describe the God of the Universe, does not constitute insulting God. Criticising ideas held by believers (their "map") does not imply a personal criticism of the believer. So catty remarks in retaliation are uncalled for.

I was very deeply hurt by the comments here, and so declined to comment further. It seems some people are really not being Christ-like on this thread and displaying very little empathy and compassion. I am a highly vulnerable person and the insults, disrespect and hostility here put me in a very bad place. Shall I assume that was intentional? I wouldn't put such sadistic bullying behaviour past anyone who sincerely believes everyone else justly gets eternal torture.

It's not surprising that some fundamentalists who have a worldview based on hate (disguised as love), today's Pharisees, act in a hateful, hostile, insulting, hurtful, and aggressive un-Christlike manner. After all, as Christ said, by their fruits you will know them. This thread is a perfect case in point.

Christ taught not to retaliate insult (real or imagined), to have compassion for people who persecute you (real or imagined), and he condemned religious hypocrites like the Pharisees in the strongest terms, who used faith as a stick to bludgeon others with.

What I see here are bigots projecting their own bigotry onto me, making personal attacks, acting like a mob of bullies and kicking me around like a playtoy until I am highly distraught, with no empathy and compassion, merely going on the attack due to a criticism of ideas. If this is Christianity then I want no part of it.

All the disrespectful, condescending, insulting, attacking posters here have done is deepen my personal hatred for bigoted fundamentalists. I am wondering if that was the intention. If the intention instead was to give a positive witness to the God of the Bible, then this behaviour is folly. On the other hand, if you wish to provide evidence for Nietzsche's notion that (fundamentalist) Christians are essentially a sugar-coated gang dressing up hatred and revenge as false "love", then such hypocritical behaviour does seem to fit.

I have certainly been made to feel extremely unwelcome here, and that this forum is a very inhospitable and hostile place, subject to mobbing and bullying behaviour with no empathy and compassion. I have been made to feel profoundly psychologically and emotionally unsafe signing in here, with sweaty palms, a sickness in my stomach, and the insulting and hostile interaction weighing heavily on my mind. I cannot have such hurtful interaction in my life.

Again, I am not sure if that was the intention, and given the ethics taught by Jesus, the behaviour of some members here makes little sense either from a Christian or a purely pragmatic perspective.

If such disrespectful, insulting and hurtful personal attacks are the outcome for my sharing a heartfelt experience here, and expressing my profound issues with certain ideas, then this really is not a positive, safe, spiritually nurturing and loving environment. I was actually interested in having another look at certain aspects of Christianity, however my experiences on this thread with Evangelical believers has made me decide to steer well clear.

 

[oi_antz]

The reason I have such issues with fundamentalists is because of their insulting and condescending reactions to having their ideas challenged. I'm with Korzybski on this one: The map is not the terrain. Criticising ideas purporting to describe the God of the Universe, does not constitute insulting God. Criticising ideas held by believers (their "map") does not imply a personal criticism of the believer. So catty remarks in retaliation are uncalled for.

I was very deeply hurt by the comments here, and so declined to comment further. It seems some people are really not being Christ-like on this thread and displaying very little empathy and compassion. I am a highly vulnerable person and the insults, disrespect and hostility here put me in a very bad place. Shall I assume that was intentional? I wouldn't put such sadistic bullying behaviour past anyone who sincerely believes everyone else justly gets eternal torture.

It's not surprising that some fundamentalists who have a worldview based on hate (disguised as love), today's Pharisees, act in a hateful, hostile, insulting, hurtful, and aggressive un-Christlike manner. After all, as Christ said, by their fruits you will know them. This thread is a perfect case in point.

Christ taught not to retaliate insult (real or imagined), to have compassion for people who persecute you (real or imagined), and he condemned religious hypocrites like the Pharisees in the strongest terms, who used faith as a stick to bludgeon others with.

What I see here are bigots projecting their own bigotry onto me, making personal attacks, acting like a mob of bullies and kicking me around like a playtoy until I am highly distraught, with no empathy and compassion, merely going on the attack due to a criticism of ideas. If this is Christianity then I want no part of it.

All the disrespectful, condescending, insulting, attacking posters here have done is deepen my personal hatred for bigoted fundamentalists. I am wondering if that was the intention. If the intention instead was to give a positive witness to the God of the Bible, then this behaviour is folly. On the other hand, if you wish to provide evidence for Nietzsche's notion that (fundamentalist) Christians are essentially a sugar-coated gang dressing up hatred and revenge as false "love", then such hypocritical behaviour does seem to fit.

I have certainly been made to feel extremely unwelcome here, and that this forum is a very inhospitable and hostile place, subject to mobbing and bullying behaviour with no empathy and compassion. I have been made to feel profoundly psychologically and emotionally unsafe signing in here, with sweaty palms, a sickness in my stomach, and the insulting and hostile interaction weighing heavily on my mind. I cannot have such hurtful interaction in my life.

Again, I am not sure if that was the intention, and given the ethics taught by Jesus, the behaviour of some members here makes little sense either from a Christian or a purely pragmatic perspective.

If such disrespectful, insulting and hurtful personal attacks are the outcome for my sharing a heartfelt experience here, and expressing my profound issues with certain ideas, then this really is not a positive, safe, spiritually nurturing and loving environment. I was actually interested in having another look at certain aspects of Christianity, however my experiences on this thread with Evangelical believers has made me decide to steer well clear.

Thanks for sharing this observation While it is observable, the attitudes you describe here of Christians often being terrible perpetrators of Christian behaviours, keep in mind that what is received is often much different than what is sent. Once you have formed such a belief, as you did wrt aiki here, it is natural to, and you will feel right to, see it as having been sent that way. I feel your reception of his message on this thread has suffered that problem, which is misunderstanding. But in time, if you are ready to see it in a new light, you may see the message he intended to send and you may be willing to receive it. Best wishes and enjoy the season!

 

[TheyCallMeDavid]

I was traumatised by Evangelical Christians in my early 20s, at my university's Student Union. They told me a friend who died age 20 is going to Hell. And that not believing in their doctrines will lead to conscious eternal torture.

Evangelical Christians told me my atheist friend who died in a car accident age 20 is facing conscious eternal torment for his lack of faith. They showed me very little empathy or compassion in their dogmatic attitudes, especially considering my grief.

I heard that Elaine Pagels left Evangelical Christianity for the exact same reason. A non-Christian friend died (in his case Jewish), and she was told they are in Hell, so she left Evangelicalism. That belief no longer resonated with her, nor seemed reasonable.

I am now an atheist myself. I personally find beliefs like the above and the associated bigotry quite toxic, myself. The notion of conscious eternal torture based on a thought crime is effectively positing and glorifying a cosmic tyrant. It is really horrible and hurtful to clearly be told that a friend of mine who died young is now going to spend eternity in an infinity of pain. No matter how irrational that belief may be.

As an atheist I derive immense comfort from the idea that all pain and suffering ends at death, no matter what morally evil deeds a person committed during their lifetime, or whatever their belief system. This is also a Biblical principle, though: "The wages of sin is death" (Romans 6:23).

My view is, as Epicurus taught, true salvation is found through abandoning the fear and desire of an afterlife reward and punishment and fear of a wrathful deity, which weighs heavily on the psyche (mind/soul), and embracing a naturalistic worldview, together with following an ideal of life, health and inner peace in which terror of divine judgement and punishment (and the need for afterlife hopes) need have no place.

Thus I cannot accept the fear of Hell as rational, given its lack of empirical grounding combined with obvious use to control, manipulate and emotionally blackmail people, stirring up neurotic fears of Hell which conflict with genuine imperturable inner peace, or ataraxia.

I thus derive comfort from a naturalistic worldview in which the horrifying prospect concerning my friend's proposed infinity of pain, as put forward by Evangelical Christian dogma, is confidently viewed as an improbable hypothesis.

I do consider it quite a mean-spirited idea though, personally, to suppose that a person not following their faith gets conscious eternal torture and this is somehow right and just. In my view, infinite punishment for finite sins (including inherited Original Sin) makes no sense and feels quite evil, is rooted in vengeance and hatred not corrective justice, and would in fact not be justice by any reasonable standard. Not even so much vengeance as some malevolent sadism, for a God to oversee the existence of such a Hell for all non-believers as he sits on his throne - almost like a sadistic kid with an ant farm enjoying roasting his ants live over a fire.

Anyway, I hope my views do not cause too much offence here. I was deeply wounded by Evangelical Christians, and they did seem to be very heavy on dogma and light on compassion, in my unfortunate experience. Some of them have attempted to shut down dialogue before when I mentioned the issues I raise on this thread, such as my experience with my friend, in a way I felt lacked integrity. I hope I will not have such issues here.

I do hope I can still get on with people of different beliefs here, despite my issues, and not allow religion to come between friendships. My experience with Evangelicals/Fundamentalists (they called themselves both) definitely left a scar though. Although I must admit, I am wary of considering myself personal friends with a person who thinks it is right and just that I face conscious eternal torture in Hell. Even if I personally consider that belief to be absurd, the value judgement that me being tortured forever is right, and that of friends too, does feel hateful. It seems quite a source of bigotry.

I will not be converting to Christianity (in any form) any time soon though. I am quite confident as an atheist myself now.

I thought I would share my experiences here, to get a different perspective.


Kind regards,

Mequa

Thank you for sharing. Did you know that MOST people whether inside Evangelical Christianity or outside of it, have had at least one bad experience ? Most people within Christian Churches have a bad experience or a conflict from time to time with another. Many times people in churches say or do things that are tactless or don't represent Christs character at all. All people in Christian Churches are in a process of growing and getting molded from their sinful nature to one of more purity and Christlikeness..but with some...it takes quite some time . It depends on how willing the Person is to be changed and molded, where they have come from in their past experiences in life, what their basic temperament is , and their level of pride, strongwill, and arrogance to want to call their own shots in life. I hope you can understand that Christians don't automatically become Divine by nature when they start trusting Christ for their sin payment ; they don't. Christian Churches are essentially a Hospital for People who realize they are sinners against God and other people yet desire to change that. Along the way, people who come in contact with them might get their toes stepped on. If you did, then im sorry it occurred. It can also occur outside of Christian Churches and in fact, it is more likely too because outside of Christianity are people following Secular Humanism where THEY are the center of authority...and that leads to a lot of stepping others toes due to the spirit of self centeredness , narcissism , quest for hedonism, and desire for no morals based on urges at the time.

Finally, Id like to politely challenge your assertion that you are an 'Atheist' , because I don't believe you have enough blind faith to truly believe everything just happened by chance, for no reason, from nothing, by nothing, and when you look around , you find the evidence of mass compilations of chaos and mistakes. So, Id like to suggest you don't label yourself as 'an Atheist' , but rather, a "Discouraged Seeker" which is congruent with your testimony of disdain toward Christians . This way, you haven't closed the door on THE most important of all issues which is our Creators existence / what his purpose for your life is / and how you can find it and own it so you can have maximum fulfillment, purpose, meaning, and joy from this short interlude we call earthly life. I trust you find this label more appropriate to you (?).

Lastly, because there is an infinite moral, righteous, holy, sacred Creator who gave us a definitive Moral Conscience to live by and the free will to choose to return the Creators love back to him or not.....there will and must be moral culpability for everyone who ever lived otherwise our Creator is not Just . Therefore, for him to remain loving as well as Just, he simply grants us whatever we wanted while on earth concerning himself --- if we wanted more of him then we get it for all of eternity ; if we wanted to play the atheist charade so we could continue to justify rejecting him then we get greater distance from him later . Its a simple case of : We choose and he grants. Each of us are responsible for themselves ; if your deceased Friends made a bad choice then im afraid they will be assigned to live with it as they wanted . You however, don't need to. Regards, Dave.

 

[Ellwood3]

I was traumatised by Evangelical Christians in my early 20s, at my university's Student Union. They told me a friend who died age 20 is going to Hell. And that not believing in their doctrines will lead to conscious eternal torture.

Evangelical Christians told me my atheist friend who died in a car accident age 20 is facing conscious eternal torment for his lack of faith. They showed me very little empathy or compassion in their dogmatic attitudes, especially considering my grief.

I heard that Elaine Pagels left Evangelical Christianity for the exact same reason. A non-Christian friend died (in his case Jewish), and she was told they are in Hell, so she left Evangelicalism. That belief no longer resonated with her, nor seemed reasonable.

I am now an atheist myself. I personally find beliefs like the above and the associated bigotry quite toxic, myself. The notion of conscious eternal torture based on a thought crime is effectively positing and glorifying a cosmic tyrant. It is really horrible and hurtful to clearly be told that a friend of mine who died young is now going to spend eternity in an infinity of pain. No matter how irrational that belief may be.

As an atheist I derive immense comfort from the idea that all pain and suffering ends at death, no matter what morally evil deeds a person committed during their lifetime, or whatever their belief system. This is also a Biblical principle, though: "The wages of sin is death" (Romans 6:23).

My view is, as Epicurus taught, true salvation is found through abandoning the fear and desire of an afterlife reward and punishment and fear of a wrathful deity, which weighs heavily on the psyche (mind/soul), and embracing a naturalistic worldview, together with following an ideal of life, health and inner peace in which terror of divine judgement and punishment (and the need for afterlife hopes) need have no place.

Thus I cannot accept the fear of Hell as rational, given its lack of empirical grounding combined with obvious use to control, manipulate and emotionally blackmail people, stirring up neurotic fears of Hell which conflict with genuine imperturable inner peace, or ataraxia.

I thus derive comfort from a naturalistic worldview in which the horrifying prospect concerning my friend's proposed infinity of pain, as put forward by Evangelical Christian dogma, is confidently viewed as an improbable hypothesis.

I do consider it quite a mean-spirited idea though, personally, to suppose that a person not following their faith gets conscious eternal torture and this is somehow right and just. In my view, infinite punishment for finite sins (including inherited Original Sin) makes no sense and feels quite evil, is rooted in vengeance and hatred not corrective justice, and would in fact not be justice by any reasonable standard. Not even so much vengeance as some malevolent sadism, for a God to oversee the existence of such a Hell for all non-believers as he sits on his throne - almost like a sadistic kid with an ant farm enjoying roasting his ants live over a fire.

Anyway, I hope my views do not cause too much offence here. I was deeply wounded by Evangelical Christians, and they did seem to be very heavy on dogma and light on compassion, in my unfortunate experience. Some of them have attempted to shut down dialogue before when I mentioned the issues I raise on this thread, such as my experience with my friend, in a way I felt lacked integrity. I hope I will not have such issues here.

I do hope I can still get on with people of different beliefs here, despite my issues, and not allow religion to come between friendships. My experience with Evangelicals/Fundamentalists (they called themselves both) definitely left a scar though. Although I must admit, I am wary of considering myself personal friends with a person who thinks it is right and just that I face conscious eternal torture in Hell. Even if I personally consider that belief to be absurd, the value judgement that me being tortured forever is right, and that of friends too, does feel hateful. It seems quite a source of bigotry.

I will not be converting to Christianity (in any form) any time soon though. I am quite confident as an atheist myself now.

I thought I would share my experiences here, to get a different perspective.


Kind regards,

Mequa

Hello Mequa,
I am not offended by your perspective, or by anything you have written on this thread.



I’ll begin with telling you how I see your situation, this post first dealing with Christian evangelicals, and then the philosophies you have pointed out as being more helpful in a later post.


You are bothered by the absence of kindness you received from a segment of people who are Christians. Not all Christians will agree with them about your friend being in hell or going to hell. I do not. Did God tell them your friend was not saved? The Bible says Jesus will be the Judge, and that will be at a future time. It says He will winnow the grain from the chaff, that He will separate the sheep from the goat, and the wheat from the tares. I do not understand who your friend was, or know your friend’s heart. Did the atheism come from a desire for truth and lack of understanding, or from willfulness? I can’t know that. I’m not the Judge.


God sees the heart.


1 Samuel 16:7: 1 Samuel 16:7 But the LORD said to Samuel, "Do not consider his appearance or his height, for I have rejected him. The LORD does not look at the things people look at. People look at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart."


YouVersion: https://www.bible.com/bible/42/1sa.16.cpdv


But the LORD said to Samuel, “Do not look on his appearance or on the height of his stature, because I have rejected him. For the LORD sees not as man sees: man looks on the outward appearance, but the LORD looks on the heart.”


I believe God (Jesus, the Son) will judge perfectly. Is there hope for your friend? There could be.



I want to be clear that there is a sadist who views all humans with hate, but he is the devil, and not the God of the Bible. Hell (the Lake of Fire) was created for the devil, not for people. Those people who are lost to God will be there. The details of that are not understood fully by me or by anyone else.



As the Saviour, Jesus paid a very high price for everyone, individually, and it is not God’s HOPE desire to have any person be lost.
Evangelicals are not all alike.



In his book Faith Beyond Reason, A.W. Tozer has a chapter called “Revelation is Not Enough.” In it, he says the real division among Christians is between evangelical rationalists and evangelical mystics. The rationalists claim, ‘I believe the text, so if I have the text I have the truth.’


Is it kind to say to someone, your friend who died (who didn’t believe as I do) is going to hell? No. More than that, it is presumptuous. God, in the Person of Jesus Christ, He and He alone will do the judging. Is there a place for the lost? Yes. God alone knows who goes there.



Many Evangelicals, could be like those you encountered and who were brutal is telling you what they believed is the truth, have a kind of list of beliefs. They think, “There are 17 things I am to believe in order to have salvation. I can give intellectual agreement to all 17. So I am ‘in.’ If you believe 12 of the 17? Then you are ‘out.’ So what? Who cares about you?” They are very proud of how good their beliefs seem to be. But they are proud.


If you see the word “believe,” it looks as if it comes from “be live.” Actually it comes from (by) (life); what I believe is “what I live by my life.” The journey of faith is more than giving mere intellectual consent to something. Real beliefs are not just ideas or thoughts about something, they are lived out through our individual lives.


Consider the creed: I believe in God the Father ….
Here is a musical version (Rich Mullins doing his song Creed):


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVTop7pzqcM

Let me ask you, is there anything in that Creed that the devil would not, if he could be honest, admit is true?



The devil knows God the Father, knows about Jesus but he doesn’t follow, or believe by his life. He doesn’t live in faith or in obedience.



In Faith Beyond Reason A. W. Tozer also says this in his chapter “Revelation Is Not Enough”:


“But the evangelical rationalist today is still wearing our uniform. He comes right in wearing our uniform and says what the Pharisees said while Jesus was on earth (and they were His worst enemies). “Well, truth is truth, and if you believe the truth, you’ve got it.”
In His day or in our day, such people see no beyond and no mystic depth, no mysterious heights, nothing supernatural or divine. They see only:
I-believe-in-God-the-Father-Almighty-
Maker-of-Heaven-and-earth-and-in-
Jesus-Christ-His-only-Son-our-Lord.
They have the text and the code and the creed, and to them that is the truth. So they pass it on to others. The result is we are dying spiritually.”


“Now, what about the evangelical mystic? I do not really like the word mystic because you think of a fellow with long hair and a little goatee who acts dreamy and strange. Maybe it is not a good word at all, bit I am talking about the spiritual side of things—that the truth is more than the text. There is something that you must get through to. The truth is more than the code. There is a heart beating in the middle of the code and you must get there.”



Tozer ends that chapter with this:
“I would rather be part of a small group with inner knowledge than part of a vast group with only intellectual knowledge. In that great day of Christ’s coming, all that will matter is whether or not I have been inwardly illuminated, inwardly regenerated, inwardly purified.



The question is: Do we really know Jesus in the way?”



I invite you, Mequa, to consider forgiving the shortsighted people who were so unkind and unfriendly when they said your friend is going to Hell.



The Judgment hasn’t happened yet, and God loves and has invested more in your friend than you have. Jesus told the Pharisees the sinners were entering the kingdom of heaven before the Pharisees. He also said the first would be last and the last first. The Bible also tells us the only true religion as taking care of the widows and the orphans. God looks at the heart. He understands both actions and motives. I don’t have the answer about your friend and neither did they.


There is a person who goes to church. Who seems to be a believer. God knows, and I don’t whether that person is saved, and what their rewards, if any should be. That (rewards) is another topic, but not everyone will have the same experience of heaven.


There is a person who says he can’t believe in the God of the Bible. He gives to the poor, and helps his neighbors without any belief in an afterlife. Did that person follow truth (who is Jesus) and did he follow love (who is God)? Jesus who bore his sins on the cross, and crucifixion was (still is) a horrible way to die—will be sitting in the Judgment seat. We aren’t saved by good deeds but by grace. He is God and will not see only the outward appearance, but will see the genuine nature of the heart.



Salvation is only through Jesus. But there is much we don't know about His judgments. We do know they will be righteous.



Perhaps there is more to the Christian faith than its outward appearance of personally unpleasant Evangelicals.

 

[Ellwood3]

Mequa, you brought up some other philosophers and ideas I want to look at. Please be aware you do not need to post anything in response unless you want to. I will not assume that you will brave this site and come here again (not always easy). But your question matters to others who, like you, haven't seen in Christians what they were hoping for, if Biblical Christianity is true. Maybe is will help someone else. Now turning to your philosophers and authors.



You mention (post #31), choosing instead Elaine Pagels and The Gospel of Thomas.

Pagels uses portions of The Gospel of Thomas (which wasn't written by the disciple Thomas. Pagels does not give the whole text, but she uses the sayings she likes and comments on them. The quote you have you is one she is known for in particular. You said,

“I prefer the Gospel of Thomas to fundamentalist Christianity. This quote, for example, is something I would say makes far more sense in terms of a form of salvation than relying on someone bleeding on a cross:”

"If you bring forth what is within you, what you bring forth will save you. If you do not bring forth what is within you, what you do not bring forth will destroy you."


Consider its truth: If there is rage in you and you let it out, does that save you? How would that rescue a person?


If there is hate in you and you let it out, will that be your salvation?
What is evidence that whatever is in you, will be your salvation if your bring it out, and your destruction if you don’t?



There is no evidence for this. It is not true, though it may sound good on the surface. It is actually teaching people to do (bring out) whatever comes naturally to them, and the person doing that can become their own salvation. “If it feels good do it” would be a like philosophy. And also, “You can be your own salvation.”


But is it true?



And saved from what?



The Gospel of Thomas you say you like, is a compilation of over 110 supposed sayings of the historical Jesus. It is a mix of sayings similar to what’s in the Bible combined with Gnosticism. Thomas, the disciple never read it much less wrote it.



In his book, What Have They Done with Jesus?: Beyond Strange Theories and Bad History—Why We Can Trust the Bible by Ben Witherington lll, Witherington there's a chapter called “The Mary Magdalene of Myth and Legend” and in it he points out The Gospel of Thomas’s saying #22:


“When you make the two into one, and when you make the inner like the outer and the outer like the inner, and the upper like the lower, and when you make male and female into a single one, so that the male will not be male and the female be female, when you make eyes in place of an eye, a hand in place of a hand, a foot in place of a foot, an image in place of an image, then you will enter [the kingdom].


“It is frankly hard to keep a straight face and say that this sounds anything like the historical Jesus …” Witherington says.




To enter the kingdom of heaven (the place where God rules) the Biblical requirement is love of God and other forms of obedience. But from The Gospel of Thomas, I must … make the male and female into something neither male nor female and make the upper lower and the inner outer and outer inner and a hand in place of a hand and … -- it sounds like someone was drunk when they wrote that.



That and other sayings in the Gospel of Thomas are therefore usually ignored by Pagels and others, but even the one most often mentioned is not true.


Here's another:


#32: “If you do not fast from this world, you will not find the Kingdom. If you do not make the Sabbath the <true> Sabbath, you will not see the Father.”

Err in failing to fast or in reaching the <true> Sabbath and you will not see the Father, that says.


In Christianity, we fail. We come as broken, busted up people who are saved not through our efforts, but by grace; God's gift to us.





The last saying in “The Gospel of Thomas” is:


“Simon Peter says to them: Let Mary go out from our midst, for women are not worthy of life! “Jesus says: “See I will draw her do as to make her male so that she also may become a living spirit like you males. For every woman who has become male will enter the Kingdom of heaven.”


The true Jesus in the Bible revealed Himself to women and did not treat them with contempt.


Mequa--or whoever else reads this--especially the atheists and agnostics, and those calling The Gospel of Thomas a great book, this is what I think:




Apply the same degree of thought to exploring alternatives to Christianity as you do to Christianity, and honestly challenge your assumptions and previous conclusions about all things. Is God a sadist? Is He vengeful? Or could it appear like that to someone who does not understand what else is there that is still deeper and richer?

 

[Ellwood3]

Again, I'm not writing this to attack you. You can believe whatever you want. You can also waste a lot of time going down some bad alleys into strange philosophies too. Here is something on Epicureanism.



Epicureanism


In your Post #14 you wrote this:


"A happy and eternal being has no trouble himself and brings no trouble upon any other being; hence he is exempt from movements of anger and partiality, for every such movement implies weakness." "Don't fear God." - Epicurus, c. 300 B.C.E.

The above quote was a good ancient argument against the fear of divine judgement and Hell. For a God to get angry with you because your behaviour is somehow threatening to such a God, does show he is not all-powerful but is demonstrating weakness by showing both anger and partiality, and seeking to reward and punish.

Epicurus was an an atomic physicalist polydeist himself, who accepted an infinite number of immortal gods/extraterrestrials/aliens made of purely physical atoms in an infinite and eternal universe, all of which were indifferent towards human life. Although this is probably not a cosmology which is acceptable today, it's not really theistic or religious.

But for a God to get angry or partial, and seek to punish humans after death, would conflict with divine strength and self-sufficiency. A God who created humans and is angry at how they behave is not all-powerful but is displaying weakness, for such an otherwise powerful being to display anger, hate and sadism, with his eternal torture chamber. That also doesn't seem a particularly virtuous thing for such a ruler to do. I don't expect Hell would have a good record for human rights violations, even our flawed secular legal systems do not permit cruel and unusual punishment - which eternal torture for finite offences seems to be.

Furthermore, a naturalistic, empiricist and materialist/physicalist worldview discredits the notion of an immortal soul which can survive death and face conscious eternal torture and infinite and eternal pain, by a very petty God for the thought crime of not believing in him."



Here is the quote:


"A happy and eternal being has no trouble himself and brings no trouble upon any other being; hence he is exempt from movements of anger and partiality, for every such movement implies weakness." "Don't fear God."




The question here is, however serene or good it appears, is it true? Why would a “happy and eternal being have no trouble? Who says (besides Epicurus)? Where is your evidence? Why would anger (for example, against deplorable injustice) “imply weakness”? God’s wrath is can’t be divided from His mercy and His love.


The God I know grieves over those who do not receive Him, He grieves when people are led astray and spend their lives in a place He never intended, not because His ego can’t take it but because He had something better planned for those He loves. And God loves people.


You wrote:


"Epicurus was an an atomic physicalist polydeist himself, who accepted an infinite number of immortal gods/extraterrestrials/aliens made of purely physical atoms in an infinite and eternal universe, all of which were indifferent towards human life."


Again, go from Christianity if you dislike the way many Christians behave. But go in an honest direction. Follow truth. Not despair.



So ask yourself, is what he said, true?



Immortal gods/extraterrestrials/aliens with no spiritual aspects in an infinite universe? We know our universe is expanding and it did have a start, and is not infinite and eternal, so we know Epicurus was wrong about that.



How can purely physical atoms exist eternally?


What about entropy?


How can there be an “infinite” number of gods?


If they are indifferent to us why should we concern ourselves with them?


Is there any evidence for them?


In my opinion, Epicurus is simply one more person who, like Pagels, created their own set of faith rules, their own religion. Their religions, their creations, have nothing in them. Both are empty. They are trying to sell something, but neither have truth. That's empty.



In Post #1 you, Mequa wrote:


[FONT=&quot]"My view is, as Epicurus taught, true salvation is found through abandoning the fear and desire of an afterlife reward and punishment and fear of a wrathful deity, which weighs heavily on the psyche (mind/soul), and embracing a naturalistic worldview, together with following an ideal of life, health and inner peace in which terror of divine judgement and punishment (and the need for afterlife hopes) need have no place."

Salvation comes from not believing there is a God, and having freedom to do what you will in good conscience for there will be no afterlife, Epicurus said. The book of Ecclesiastes would say “vanity, vanity, all is vanity.” Epicurus planned for people to live their lives in vain, on his assumption there is no future world.
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I think he was wrong.






https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2KOCgC8DnU&index=4&list=RD9LR2hFP1yb4