My problem with Evangelical Christianity

[Mequa]

I was traumatised by Evangelical Christians in my early 20s, at my university's Student Union. They told me a friend who died age 20 is going to Hell. And that not believing in their doctrines will lead to conscious eternal torture.

Evangelical Christians told me my atheist friend who died in a car accident age 20 is facing conscious eternal torment for his lack of faith. They showed me very little empathy or compassion in their dogmatic attitudes, especially considering my grief.

I heard that Elaine Pagels left Evangelical Christianity for the exact same reason. A non-Christian friend died (in his case Jewish), and she was told they are in Hell, so she left Evangelicalism. That belief no longer resonated with her, nor seemed reasonable.

I am now an atheist myself. I personally find beliefs like the above and the associated bigotry quite toxic, myself. The notion of conscious eternal torture based on a thought crime is effectively positing and glorifying a cosmic tyrant. It is really horrible and hurtful to clearly be told that a friend of mine who died young is now going to spend eternity in an infinity of pain. No matter how irrational that belief may be.

As an atheist I derive immense comfort from the idea that all pain and suffering ends at death, no matter what morally evil deeds a person committed during their lifetime, or whatever their belief system. This is also a Biblical principle, though: "The wages of sin is death" (Romans 6:23).

My view is, as Epicurus taught, true salvation is found through abandoning the fear and desire of an afterlife reward and punishment and fear of a wrathful deity, which weighs heavily on the psyche (mind/soul), and embracing a naturalistic worldview, together with following an ideal of life, health and inner peace in which terror of divine judgement and punishment (and the need for afterlife hopes) need have no place.

Thus I cannot accept the fear of Hell as rational, given its lack of empirical grounding combined with obvious use to control, manipulate and emotionally blackmail people, stirring up neurotic fears of Hell which conflict with genuine imperturable inner peace, or ataraxia.

I thus derive comfort from a naturalistic worldview in which the horrifying prospect concerning my friend's proposed infinity of pain, as put forward by Evangelical Christian dogma, is confidently viewed as an improbable hypothesis.

I do consider it quite a mean-spirited idea though, personally, to suppose that a person not following their faith gets conscious eternal torture and this is somehow right and just. In my view, infinite punishment for finite sins (including inherited Original Sin) makes no sense and feels quite evil, is rooted in vengeance and hatred not corrective justice, and would in fact not be justice by any reasonable standard. Not even so much vengeance as some malevolent sadism, for a God to oversee the existence of such a Hell for all non-believers as he sits on his throne - almost like a sadistic kid with an ant farm enjoying roasting his ants live over a fire.

Anyway, I hope my views do not cause too much offence here. I was deeply wounded by Evangelical Christians, and they did seem to be very heavy on dogma and light on compassion, in my unfortunate experience. Some of them have attempted to shut down dialogue before when I mentioned the issues I raise on this thread, such as my experience with my friend, in a way I felt lacked integrity. I hope I will not have such issues here.

I do hope I can still get on with people of different beliefs here, despite my issues, and not allow religion to come between friendships. My experience with Evangelicals/Fundamentalists (they called themselves both) definitely left a scar though. Although I must admit, I am wary of considering myself personal friends with a person who thinks it is right and just that I face conscious eternal torture in Hell. Even if I personally consider that belief to be absurd, the value judgement that me being tortured forever is right, and that of friends too, does feel hateful. It seems quite a source of bigotry.

I will not be converting to Christianity (in any form) any time soon though. I am quite confident as an atheist myself now.

I thought I would share my experiences here, to get a different perspective.


Kind regards,

Mequa

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I was traumatised by Evangelical Christians in my early 20s, at my university's Student Union. They told me a friend who died age 20 is going to Hell. And that not believing in their doctrines will lead to conscious eternal torture.

Evangelical Christians told me my atheist friend who died in a car accident age 20 is facing conscious eternal torment for his lack of faith. They showed me very little empathy or compassion in their dogmatic attitudes, especially considering my grief.

I heard that Elaine Pagels left Evangelical Christianity for the exact same reason. A non-Christian friend died (in his case Jewish), and she was told they are in Hell, so she left Evangelicalism. That belief no longer resonated with her, nor seemed reasonable.

I am now an atheist myself. I personally find beliefs like the above and the associated bigotry quite toxic, myself. The notion of conscious eternal torture based on a thought crime is effectively positing and glorifying a cosmic tyrant. It is really horrible and hurtful to clearly be told that a friend of mine who died young is now going to spend eternity in an infinity of pain. No matter how irrational that belief may be.

As an atheist I derive immense comfort from the idea that all pain and suffering ends at death, no matter what morally evil deeds a person committed during their lifetime, or whatever their belief system. This is also a Biblical principle, though: "The wages of sin is death" (Romans 6:23).

My view is, as Epicurus taught, true salvation is found through abandoning the fear and desire of an afterlife reward and punishment and fear of a wrathful deity, which weighs heavily on the psyche (mind/soul), and embracing a naturalistic worldview, together with following an ideal of life, health and inner peace in which terror of divine judgement and punishment (and the need for afterlife hopes) need have no place.

Thus I cannot accept the fear of Hell as rational, given its lack of empirical grounding combined with obvious use to control, manipulate and emotionally blackmail people, stirring up neurotic fears of Hell which conflict with genuine imperturable inner peace, or ataraxia.

I thus derive comfort from a naturalistic worldview in which the horrifying prospect concerning my friend's proposed infinity of pain, as put forward by Evangelical Christian dogma, is confidently viewed as an improbable hypothesis.

I do consider it quite a mean-spirited idea though, personally, to suppose that a person not following their faith gets conscious eternal torture and this is somehow right and just. In my view, infinite punishment for finite sins (including inherited Original Sin) makes no sense and feels quite evil, is rooted in vengeance and hatred not corrective justice, and would in fact not be justice by any reasonable standard. Not even so much vengeance as some malevolent sadism, for a God to oversee the existence of such a Hell for all non-believers as he sits on his throne - almost like a sadistic kid with an ant farm enjoying roasting his ants live over a fire.

Anyway, I hope my views do not cause too much offence here. I was deeply wounded by Evangelical Christians, and they did seem to be very heavy on dogma and light on compassion, in my unfortunate experience. Some of them have attempted to shut down dialogue before when I mentioned the issues I raise on this thread, such as my experience with my friend, in a way I felt lacked integrity. I hope I will not have such issues here.

I do hope I can still get on with people of different beliefs here, despite my issues, and not allow religion to come between friendships. My experience with Evangelicals/Fundamentalists (they called themselves both) definitely left a scar though. Although I must admit, I am wary of considering myself personal friends with a person who thinks it is right and just that I face conscious eternal torture in Hell. Even if I personally consider that belief to be absurd, the value judgement that me being tortured forever is right, and that of friends too, does feel hateful. It seems quite a source of bigotry.

I will not be converting to Christianity (in any form) any time soon though. I am quite confident as an atheist myself now.

I thought I would share my experiences here, to get a different perspective.


Kind regards,

Mequa

Ok. Well, thank you for sharing your experiences, Mequa. It sounds like you've faced a lot of inner turmoil about these things. I'm sorry to hear that it's been painful.

Peace,
2PhiloVoid

 

[ananda]

I'm sorry to hear about your experiences, Mequa.

I was in evangelical Christianity as well, and I could not resolve their interpretations with the issues you brought up either.

Since then, I believe that Jesus taught correctly, but I disbelieve in the evangelical interpretation of His sayings. I don't believe that Jesus was teaching eternal life or eternal torture, nor that He was teaching that all we needed to do was to believe. Instead, I believe that He actually taught that all who followed after Him and His footsteps, in the manner of love, peace, etc. are His true children.

 

[Deidre32]

I grew up in a Catholic home, and when I went off to college, I was following a quasi watered down version of Catholicism, and non-denominational Christianity. The evangelical way of faith is quite different from what I had been exposed to, and I'm so sorry to hear of your plight. I have felt it odd for a long time, that there are so many denominations of Christianity...why all the division?

 

[Mequa]

Thank you all for your kind words.

Humans tend to have a tendency to want to be "right" as a kind of ego thing. I saw that with young fundamentalist Evangelical Christians in the context of their dogmatic approach to faith.

Perhaps that also partly explains some of the answer to the question above, in terms of there being so many denominations of Christianity, "why all the division?".

 

[Sketcher]

So . . . what sort of dialogue were you hoping for with an Evangelical Christian who disagrees with this view of yours? You don't want to get hurt further, yet you posted it here of all places for a reason. If you don't compromise the belief that you have shared, and if I don't compromise my beliefs that contradict yours, how do you want me to show love to you?

 

[James Is Back]

So sorry you were exposed to that. That's the problem with some churches and Christians is that they don't proper witness or do proper evangelism. They go right to the fire and brimstone with no love and respect towards anyone. Yes there comes a point where you need to do the fire and brimstone preaching but when that time comes you need to do it delicately and with loving care and not say "ok so and so is in Hell right now because he/she wasn't saved" that type of evangelising is wrong and can drive one away from God instead towards Him.

I pray that you find God the right way and not the wrong way which you received.

 

[Mequa]

So . . . what sort of dialogue were you hoping for with an Evangelical Christian who disagrees with this view of yours? You don't want to get hurt further, yet you posted it here of all places for a reason. If you don't compromise the belief that you have shared, and if I don't compromise my beliefs that contradict yours, how do you want me to show love to you?

That's the Evangelicalism I remember. Light on empathy and compassion, heavy on dogma. No attempt to place oneself in the shoes of a non-believer in a situation similar to that I described.

Just self-righteous narcissistic dogmatism, happy for all others of different views to be tortured forever and seeing that as fair and right.

Is it really possible to love a person one believes to deserve eternal torture due to not agreeing with you? I think not, and I'm not the only one to find such "love" incredibly creepy, which is so distorted through dogmatism that it manifests itself purely in a desire for the other person to convert to avoid conscious eternal torture. What an ugly superstition and source of bigotry in my view.

 

[Mequa]

An interesting list of quotes I have found on this topic:

Quotes from "Christian Perpetuators of the Mythology of Hell"
(Cannot give links as post count is too low, however Google the above and check cache if it's down.)


Here are a few lovely quotes from the above:

“Therefore the elect shall go forth…to see the torments of the impious, seeing which they will not be grieved, but will be satiated with joy at the sight of the unutterable calamity of the impious.” - Peter Lombard

"In order that the happiness of the saints may be more delightful to them and that they may render more copious thanks to God for it, they are allowed to see perfectly the sufferings of the damned." - Thomas Aquinas

“The view of the misery of the damned will double the ardour of the love and gratitude of the saints of heaven.” - Jonathan Edwards

"God shall not pity them but laugh at their calamity. The righteous company in heaven shall rejoice in the execution of God's judgment, and shall sing while the smoke riseth up for ever." - Thomas Boston

“The door of mercy will be shut and all bowels of compassion denied, by God, who will laugh at their destruction; by angels and saints, who will rejoice when they see the vengeance' by their fellow-suffer the devil and the damned rejoicing over their misery.” - Bishop Newcomb

“…the Blessed will see their friends and relations among the damned as often as they like but without the least of compassion.” - Gerhard


Is the above a loving and compassionate belief system, or a sadistic one?

 

[Receiver]

I was traumatised by Evangelical Christians .. .

Hi Mequa,

you have listened to what calls itself "evangelical Christianity" and atheism (because it offered comforting thought), now you are here.

Eternal torment assumes the human soul is immortal, but the bible says that only God has immortality (+ those that receive it from him). It also teaches that it is the love of God that draws man and his goodness that leads to repentance. I have gone into detail on what I find the bible actually teaches about hell on post #38 here.

It is highly likely that you have never experienced Christianity as it really is.
I and all my friends have received "the comforter", we have become children of God, not religious fanatics.

"The wages of sin is death" (Romans 6:23).

Yes, clearly, if you are writhing in agony you are not dead!

 

[Mequa]

"A happy and eternal being has no trouble himself and brings no trouble upon any other being; hence he is exempt from movements of anger and partiality, for every such movement implies weakness." "Don't fear God." - Epicurus, c. 300 B.C.E.

The above quote was a good ancient argument against the fear of divine judgement and Hell. For a God to get angry with you because your behaviour is somehow threatening to such a God, does show he is not all-powerful but is demonstrating weakness by showing both anger and partiality, and seeking to reward and punish.

Epicurus was an an atomic physicalist polydeist himself, who accepted an infinite number of immortal gods/extraterrestrials/aliens made of purely physical atoms in an infinite and eternal universe, all of which were indifferent towards human life. Although this is probably not a cosmology which is acceptable today, it's not really theistic or religious.

But for a God to get angry or partial, and seek to punish humans after death, would conflict with divine strength and self-sufficiency. A God who created humans and is angry at how they behave is not all-powerful but is displaying weakness, for such an otherwise powerful being to display anger, hate and sadism, with his eternal torture chamber. That also doesn't seem a particularly virtuous thing for such a ruler to do. I don't expect Hell would have a good record for human rights violations, even our flawed secular legal systems do not permit cruel and unusual punishment - which eternal torture for finite offences seems to be.

Furthermore, a naturalistic, empiricist and materialist/physicalist worldview discredits the notion of an immortal soul which can survive death and face conscious eternal torture and infinite and eternal pain, by a very petty God for the thought crime of not believing in him.

 

[xTx]

I was traumatised by Evangelical Christians in my early 20s, at my university's Student Union. They told me a friend who died age 20 is going to Hell. And that not believing in their doctrines will lead to conscious eternal torture.

Evangelical Christians told me my atheist friend who died in a car accident age 20 is facing conscious eternal torment for his lack of faith. They showed me very little empathy or compassion in their dogmatic attitudes, especially considering my grief.

I heard that Elaine Pagels left Evangelical Christianity for the exact same reason. A non-Christian friend died (in his case Jewish), and she was told they are in Hell, so she left Evangelicalism. That belief no longer resonated with her, nor seemed reasonable.

I am now an atheist myself. I personally find beliefs like the above and the associated bigotry quite toxic, myself. The notion of conscious eternal torture based on a thought crime is effectively positing and glorifying a cosmic tyrant. It is really horrible and hurtful to clearly be told that a friend of mine who died young is now going to spend eternity in an infinity of pain. No matter how irrational that belief may be.

As an atheist I derive immense comfort from the idea that all pain and suffering ends at death, no matter what morally evil deeds a person committed during their lifetime, or whatever their belief system. This is also a Biblical principle, though: "The wages of sin is death" (Romans 6:23).

My view is, as Epicurus taught, true salvation is found through abandoning the fear and desire of an afterlife reward and punishment and fear of a wrathful deity, which weighs heavily on the psyche (mind/soul), and embracing a naturalistic worldview, together with following an ideal of life, health and inner peace in which terror of divine judgement and punishment (and the need for afterlife hopes) need have no place.

Thus I cannot accept the fear of Hell as rational, given its lack of empirical grounding combined with obvious use to control, manipulate and emotionally blackmail people, stirring up neurotic fears of Hell which conflict with genuine imperturable inner peace, or ataraxia.

I thus derive comfort from a naturalistic worldview in which the horrifying prospect concerning my friend's proposed infinity of pain, as put forward by Evangelical Christian dogma, is confidently viewed as an improbable hypothesis.

I do consider it quite a mean-spirited idea though, personally, to suppose that a person not following their faith gets conscious eternal torture and this is somehow right and just. In my view, infinite punishment for finite sins (including inherited Original Sin) makes no sense and feels quite evil, is rooted in vengeance and hatred not corrective justice, and would in fact not be justice by any reasonable standard. Not even so much vengeance as some malevolent sadism, for a God to oversee the existence of such a Hell for all non-believers as he sits on his throne - almost like a sadistic kid with an ant farm enjoying roasting his ants live over a fire.

Anyway, I hope my views do not cause too much offence here. I was deeply wounded by Evangelical Christians, and they did seem to be very heavy on dogma and light on compassion, in my unfortunate experience. Some of them have attempted to shut down dialogue before when I mentioned the issues I raise on this thread, such as my experience with my friend, in a way I felt lacked integrity. I hope I will not have such issues here.

I do hope I can still get on with people of different beliefs here, despite my issues, and not allow religion to come between friendships. My experience with Evangelicals/Fundamentalists (they called themselves both) definitely left a scar though. Although I must admit, I am wary of considering myself personal friends with a person who thinks it is right and just that I face conscious eternal torture in Hell. Even if I personally consider that belief to be absurd, the value judgement that me being tortured forever is right, and that of friends too, does feel hateful. It seems quite a source of bigotry.

I will not be converting to Christianity (in any form) any time soon though. I am quite confident as an atheist myself now.

I thought I would share my experiences here, to get a different perspective.


Kind regards,

Mequa

Hi Mequa, guess what, certain christians told me the same thing. That if I do not become like them I am headed to hell.

What I did? I just totally IGNORED them and went on my happy day.

Yes, I humoured them by attending their absolutely noisy service.

With hands waving like monkeys. - I was an atheist at that time.

I just thought it was all ridiculous.

Even though I was an atheist at that time I was miserable.

In my late teens and early twenties I found God through Mother Mary.

I love the Catholic Church because when I did the RCIA, the person-in-charge said there is no obligation to become catholic and he never said anyone will go to hell if they do not become catholic.

That is one of the wonderful aspects of the Holy Roman Catholic Church.

I never left

Trust me, no Roman Catholic will ever tell an atheist that they will go to hell.

If they do, please report the person to the priest

 

[Receiver]

... For a God to get angry with you because your behaviour is somehow threatening to such a God, ...

So, you have rejected a strawman.
You have found fault with a false version of the real God.

Time to face reality or happy hiding in atheism?

 

[bling]

"A happy and eternal being has no trouble himself and brings no trouble upon any other being; hence he is exempt from movements of anger and partiality, for every such movement implies weakness." "Don't fear God." - Epicurus, c. 300 B.C.E.

The above quote was a good ancient argument against the fear of divine judgement and Hell. For a God to get angry with you because your behaviour is somehow threatening to such a God, does show he is not all-powerful but is demonstrating weakness by showing both anger and partiality, and seeking to reward and punish.

Epicurus was an an atomic physicalist polydeist himself, who accepted an infinite number of immortal gods/extraterrestrials/aliens made of purely physical atoms in an infinite and eternal universe, all of which were indifferent towards human life. Although this is probably not a cosmology which is acceptable today, it's not really theistic or religious.

But for a God to get angry or partial, and seek to punish humans after death, would conflict with divine strength and self-sufficiency. A God who created humans and is angry at how they behave is not all-powerful but is displaying weakness, for such an otherwise powerful being to display anger, hate and sadism, with his eternal torture chamber. That also doesn't seem a particularly virtuous thing for such a ruler to do. I don't expect Hell would have a good record for human rights violations, even our flawed secular legal systems do not permit cruel and unusual punishment - which eternal torture for finite offences seems to be.

Furthermore, a naturalistic, empiricist and materialist/physicalist worldview discredits the notion of an immortal soul which can survive death and face conscious eternal torture and infinite and eternal pain, by a very petty God for the thought crime of not believing in him.

Scripture does not say: “Those not in heaven also have an eternal life”. The fires of hell cannot be “put out”, but God could stop providing them, especially if there is nothing left to burn.

It is truly unfortunate, but “hell” has a purpose for those who accept its existence.

God takes no pleasure in sending people to hell, but without a hell would people that are not going through a hardship on earth and come to believe in a benevolent creator decide as quickly to humbly accept God’s help/forgiveness/salvation/avoidance of hell?

If God said: “Sin is deserving of a slap on the hand”, would you think sin is hugely significant?

If man’s objective is to obtain Godly type Love so man can Love like God “Love others with all his heart, soul, mind and energy”, the only way initially for humans to obtain such unbelievable Love is automatically through as Christ tells us “…he that is forgiven much will Love much…” Sin has to be unbelievable significant, so God can forgives man of an unbelievable huge debt so man can have an unbelievable huge Love (Godly type Love). Hell is that unbelievable huge debt, which is easily forgiven by God if man will just accept God’s charity of forgiveness.

 

[Mequa]

So, you have rejected a strawman.
You have found fault with a false version of the real God.

Time to face reality or happy hiding in atheism?

So what you bring to the table here is a dogmatic certainty that you are right and I am wrong, and I get to face eternal torture in Hell unless I come round to your position, as my friend will.

I don't really feel much love and compassion in your stance. As other members on this thread have stated, "all who followed after Him and His footsteps, in the manner of love, peace, etc. are His true children."

The follow quotes are relevant here:

"Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Therefore by their fruits you will know them." - Matthew 7:15-20

"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law." - Galatians 5:22-23

The Bible says "The wages of sin is death" (Romans 6:23), that is, death is the penalty for any sins we may commit. So eternal punishment after death makes little sense in this context, when dying pays for your sins.

Being tortured in Hell for inherited sin makes God look quite unjust too, kind of like someone who tortures you for a crime your parents committed. So does letting people off the hook largely due to assenting to a proposition on faith and thanks to the sacrifice of the innocent, while everyone else burns! That feels quite unjust to me.

When such torture in Hell is also viewed as the product of a thought crime, such as not accepting certain points of Christian dogma, such a God looks like an Orwellian nightmare too.

 

[Receiver]

So what you bring to the table here is a dogmatic certainty that you are right and I am wrong, and I get to face eternal torture in Hell unless I come round to your position, as my friend will.

That comment shows that you havn't even read my introductory comments.

Ignorance isn't a problem, willing ignorance is.

I don't really feel much love and compassion in your stance.

There is no love in lies, I have provided deailed proofs for you.

Please don't reply until you have understood what I have provided.

If you still don't "feel" it, guess where the insensitivty lies?

 

[Mequa]

After such replies by the fire and brimstone brigade, I have certainly had reservations about contributing any more to this site.

 

[Sketcher]

That's the Evangelicalism I remember. Light on empathy and compassion, heavy on dogma. No attempt to place oneself in the shoes of a non-believer in a situation similar to that I described.

Just self-righteous narcissistic dogmatism, happy for all others of different views to be tortured forever and seeing that as fair and right.

Is it really possible to love a person one believes to deserve eternal torture due to not agreeing with you? I think not, and I'm not the only one to find such "love" incredibly creepy, which is so distorted through dogmatism that it manifests itself purely in a desire for the other person to convert to avoid conscious eternal torture. What an ugly superstition and source of bigotry in my view.

I was just trying to open up a constructive dialogue here. If you simply came here to argue and accuse, I don't see what that does for you. If we were neighbors or coworkers and you came to me for help with something, you would see how much compassion I truly have, because I would help you just as much and just as readily as I would help a fellow Christian. Unfortunately, Internet interactions take that out of the picture so all we can do is type to each other. If there is a way you want me to show love to you by typing to you, please state it.

 

[Mequa]

If there is a way you want me to show love to you by typing to you, please state it.

The answer to that is really quite simple. Demonstrate an ability to place yourself in my shoes, such as in the scenario mentioned in the OP. How would you feel if you were personally told that a friend 1) is in Hell, 2) forever, 3) that is right and just? Not coming from your own frame of reference but from mine, having been told that about a personal friend by Evangelical Christians. How would you feel?

Are you able to sincerely place yourself in the frame of reference of someone having such experiences with Evangelical Christianity, and thus how I do not personally perceive it as loving and compassionate?

Or would such an exercise of empathy be both painful and devastating to one's Evangelical faith, and does maintaining such a faith (and in my view, bigotry) therefore depend on not placing oneself in other people's shoes?

 

[Sketcher]

The answer to that is really quite simple. Demonstrate an ability to place yourself in my shoes, such as in the scenario mentioned in the OP. How would you feel if you were personally told that a friend 1) is in Hell, 2) forever, 3) that is right and just? Not coming from your own frame of reference but from mine, having been told that about a personal friend by Evangelical Christians. How would you feel?

I'd wonder what their deal is, and probably think it's BS. I don't see myself being emotionally devastated by that so much as being annoyed.

Are you able to sincerely place yourself in the frame of reference of someone having such experiences with Evangelical Christianity, and thus how I do not personally perceive it as loving and compassionate?

I've had experiences with jerks who claim the Christian faith (and belong to different denominations, naturally), and jerks who have other faiths. I've also met decent folks from the other Christian denominations, and also some of those other faiths.

Or would such an exercise of empathy be both painful and devastating to one's Evangelical faith, and does maintaining such a faith (and in my view, bigotry) therefore depend on not placing oneself in other people's shoes?

Nope. I like to go by what an Evangelical pastor of mine said when encountering people who are suffering. "If you haven't suffered as much, shut up." I keep silent when it is not appropriate to speak. Especially if someone is grieving a death, I tread carefully. This is an act of empathy. It has not killed my faith at all, and I doubt it has harmed it.

Furthermore, you've had a friend die. Not to take away from that, but I have had family members die, even some that were at best lapsed in their faith. Where they are right now, I don't know. I don't know what happened in that last 30 seconds of their conscious lives. One was even younger than me - it's a trip to remember when someone was kicking inside of her mother's womb, when you heard about the birth, when you saw her being baptized, when you remember growing up together, when you remember how you felt when she started taking the wrong path, when you saw her take first communion, when you see her son at holidays, and you don't see her. Please do not make me out to be someone who does not know the pain of loss, or someone who does not take other people's losses to heart. You carry the memory of your friend. This is one of the memories that I carry.