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LswaN

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That's quite a list of resurrections. You'd think there'd be more documentation if someone rose from the dead...

These resurrections are recorded in the most widely read book in the history of the world. This same book is statistically the most reliable historic document in existence. Of course, one of your objections may be that you meant a wider range of documentation. Just because we don't have copies of these documents does not mean that they do not or have not existed. They may be sitting in an ancient Israeli house waiting to be discovered. Citing a lack of documentation doesn't really prove anything.
 
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Nathan Poe

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These resurrections are recorded in the most widely read book in the history of the world.

So it's popular.

This same book is statistically the most reliable historic document in existence.

Statistically how? because what is predicted in chapter 3 comes true in chapter 11?

That's called "foreshadowing."

Of course, one of your objections may be that you meant a wider range of documentation. Just because we don't have copies of these documents does not mean that they do not or have not existed.

Including the documents that show without a doubt that the Bible is a complete and utter fiction?

Remember, just because we don't have copies of these documents...

They may be sitting in an ancient Israeli house waiting to be discovered.

They may be in my Aunt Millie's sock drawer.

Citing a lack of documentation doesn't really prove anything.

True, but neither does assuming they exist.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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These resurrections are recorded in the most widely read book in the history of the world. This same book is statistically the most reliable historic document in existence.
I would disagree with that assertion.

Of course, one of your objections may be that you meant a wider range of documentation. Just because we don't have copies of these documents does not mean that they do not or have not existed. They may be sitting in an ancient Israeli house waiting to be discovered. Citing a lack of documentation doesn't really prove anything.
Sure, but at the end of the day, we don't have these documents. They may exist, but that's just pure speculation. We expect to find them, but we don't - if there's an elephant in my garden, I expect to see certain facts (including the beast itself!); if I don't, it's not unreasonable to conclude that said elephant does not, in fact, reside in my garden.

The same is true for these resurrection events. Given the furore over Jesus' resurrection, and given the general attitude people would have about a genuine resurrection, and given the existence of the various historians around that time documenting religious and political phenomena (Josephus, etc)... well, it's quite telling.
 
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AV1611VET

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Indeed, look at Lazarus -- four Gospels and only John thinks to mention that one (not counting Luke including it as just a parable). You'd think resurrection from the dead would've caused a little more brouhaha.
Where does Luke call it a 'parable'?

And you do realize that some think (as do I) the parables that Jesus told were real events that He witnessed, do you not?
 
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LifeToTheFullest!

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These resurrections are recorded in the most widely read book in the history of the world. This same book is statistically the most reliable historic document in existence. Of course, one of your objections may be that you meant a wider range of documentation. Just because we don't have copies of these documents does not mean that they do not or have not existed. They may be sitting in an ancient Israeli house waiting to be discovered. Citing a lack of documentation doesn't really prove anything.
Of course this is your opinion, and there may be a chance it's wrong.
 
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Nathan Poe

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Where does Luke call it a 'parable'?

Context, context, context -- I'd love for you to find a Biblical scholar who says it wasn't.

And you do realize that some think (as do I) the parables that Jesus told were real events that He witnessed, do you not?

Of course we realize it, AV -- and it's a neverending source of amusement and laughter that you consider Jesus to be so lacking in creativity that he cannot tell a story to make a point unless it's a bland factual recitiation of something he personally witnessed.

It's a testament to literalist hubris that in order to elevate themselves, they must first drag Jesus himself down to their own dim and unimaginative level.

Not realize it? It's the heart and soul of what you people are about -- you guys are so bent on twisting the Bible to glorify yourselves that you wring out anything potentially useful to be gained from it.

After all, who else but you (and it is just you, AV) could think that the parables are descriptions of actual events when Jesus himself says that he uses parables as stories so that those who don't get it still won't get it? (Matthew 13:10-15)

But you, AV -- not only are your ears of dull hearing and your eyes closed -- exactly as Jesus knew you would be -- but you're so far from "getting it," that you don't even get that you don't get it!

I really don't know whether to laugh or cry at you sometimes, AV -- but laughing is more fun.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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And don't even get me started on the other resurrection stories -- all of them ripped off-- ahem, I mean "lovingly reinterpreted" from the OT.

Just more of the same -- NT writers using OT mythology to "prove" Jesus as the Messiah.
My favourite is when Matthew states that Jesus 'is Immanuel', for the sole purpose to fulfil the prophecy that states that the Messiah will be called 'Immanuel'.

Self-fulfilling prophecies ftw.
 
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Nathan Poe

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My favourite is when Matthew states that Jesus 'is Immanuel', for the sole purpose to fulfil the prophecy that states that the Messiah will be called 'Immanuel'.

Self-fulfilling prophecies ftw.

Indeed -- the closest you can get to holding up a big neon sign saying, "FYI: We've got the Old Testament right in front of us as we write this!"
 
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LifeToTheFullest!

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My favourite is when Matthew states that Jesus 'is Immanuel', for the sole purpose to fulfil the prophecy that states that the Messiah will be called 'Immanuel'.

Self-fulfilling prophecies ftw.
Or when Matthew has Jesus riding on an ass and a colt to fulfill OT 'prophecy.'
 
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Supreme

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Where does Luke call it a 'parable'?

And you do realize that some think (as do I) the parables that Jesus told were real events that He witnessed, do you not?

Why on Earth would you believe that, though? I've always thought the Son of God more than capable of creating the parables, which I consider the highest degree of moral teaching in human literature.
 
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Supreme

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It's a testament to literalist hubris that in order to elevate themselves, they must first drag Jesus himself down to their own dim and unimaginative level.

Not realize it? It's the heart and soul of what you people are about -- you guys are so bent on twisting the Bible to glorify yourselves that you wring out anything potentially useful to be gained from it.

After all, who else but you (and it is just you, AV) could think that the parables are descriptions of actual events when Jesus himself says that he uses parables as stories so that those who don't get it still won't get it? (Matthew 13:10-15)


I agree with this. Completely.
 
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LswaN

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"Statistically how?" "I would disagree with that assertion." "Of course, this is just your opinion."

When I said statistically, I actually meant it;)
The stats I use here are from a paper I got about a year ago, so the numbers may have changed by 1 or 2 since then, but unless there have been some major findings this year, they should be good enough.

"Historians evaluate the textual reliability of ancient literature according to two standards: (1) what the time interval is between the original and the earliest copy; and (2) how many manuscripts are available"

For anyone who doesn't understand the reasoning behind this, the time interval is important because the longer the interval between the original writing and the first copy we have, the more time there was for mistakes and for details to be changed. The number of manuscripts is also a good indicator of reliability because if someone wrote a history book that everyone
knew was fake, nobody would have made copies.

I can post the whole chart if I have to, but for the sake of saving time, I will just list a few key stats. According to the chart, one of the best (historically reliable) works of ancient literature is Homer's Iliad. We have 643 manuscipts, the earliest of which was written a mere 400 years after the Iliad. Other more literal histories actually pale in comparison; for example we have one partial copy of Livy's History of Rome that was witten 400 years after the original, our other 19 copies were written over 1000 years after Livy. Pliny Secundus wrote his Natural History from 61-113 A.D., and the earliest of seven known copies was written c.850 A.D. And our seven copies of the works of Plato, that famed philosopher whose Wikipedia page is nearly endless, were written over 1,300 years after Plato.

Now compare that to the New Testament. We have fragments of these books written just over 50 years after the recorded events happened. Not 500, just 50. We have full books from about 200 A.D. (100 years after the N.T. was finished) and most of the New Testament by 250. There are over 5600 Greek manuscripts from 325 A.D., only 225 years after the original. In other words, over 8 times the number of manuscripts of the Iliad in almost half the time. The Latin Vulgate translation was completed in 384 (284 years after) and we have +19,000 translated N.T.s from 400-500 A.D. When added up, there are more than 24,600 known manuscripts of the New Testament ranging from 50-400 years after it was completed. Remember, the earliest Iliad was written 400 years after the original, and we have 643 copies from then on. The Iliad is, to the extent of my limited knowledge on the subject, considered an authouritative history on the Trojan war. 643 copies of a book written at least four centuries after the original (and although I may have no idea what I'm talking about, I think that the original was written a very long time after the events took place), and it is considered a legitimate source of history. So why do people doubt the Bible as a historical document? Why? 24,600 copies written less, not more, less than 400 years after the original, and people suggest it is a matter of opinion? Statistically (that's the word that started this long-winded rant), the New Testament is more than 38 times as reliable as the Iliad, way more than 2,460 times as reliable as Julius Caesar's Gallic wars, once again way more than 3514 times the reliability Pliny's Natural History, and even more than that many times as reliable as Plato. As I said before, these resurrections are recorded in the book that is statistically the most reliable historic document in existence.:amen:



"Give thanks to the lord for he is good, his faithful love endures forever" Psalms 107:1:bow:
 
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AV1611VET

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Why on Earth would you believe that, though? I've always thought the Son of God more than capable of creating the parables, which I consider the highest degree of moral teaching in human literature.
Jesus isn't a Confucian -- that is, He didn't just sit under a tree and think up stuff to say.

Just like the book of Proverbs, where the [mundane] authors (Solomon, King Lemuel, et al.) actually experienced the advice they gave, Jesus did the same.

Yes, Jesus could create His own parable -- (like when He cursed the fig tree) -- but He used events that He, Himself actually witnessed.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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Jesus isn't a Confucian -- that is, He didn't just sit under a tree and think up stuff to say.

Just like the book of Proverbs, where the [mundane] authors (Solomon, King Lemuel, et al.) actually experienced the advice they gave, Jesus did the same.

Yes, Jesus could create His own parable -- (like when He cursed the fig tree) -- but His preference was to use events that He, Himself actually witnessed.
How on Earth do you know what he preferred?
 
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Wiccan_Child

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*cracks fingers*

"Statistically how?" "I would disagree with that assertion." "Of course, this is just your opinion."

When I said statistically, I actually meant it;)
The stats I use here are from a paper I got about a year ago, so the numbers may have changed by 1 or 2 since then, but unless there have been some major findings this year, they should be good enough.

"Historians evaluate the textual reliability of ancient literature according to two standards: (1) what the time interval is between the original and the earliest copy; and (2) how many manuscripts are available"

For anyone who doesn't understand the reasoning behind this, the time interval is important because the longer the interval between the original writing and the first copy we have, the more time there was for mistakes and for details to be changed. The number of manuscripts is also a good indicator of reliability because if someone wrote a history book that everyone
knew was fake, nobody would have made copies.
The presumes the people would know it was fake. It's entirely possible that those who made new Bibles genuinely believed it was an accurate book - which has yet to be proven.

I can post the whole chart if I have to, but for the sake of saving time, I will just list a few key stats. According to the chart, one of the best (historically reliable) works of ancient literature is Homer's Iliad. We have 643 manuscipts, the earliest of which was written a mere 400 years after the Iliad. Other more literal histories actually pale in comparison; for example we have one partial copy of Livy's History of Rome that was witten 400 years after the original, our other 19 copies were written over 1000 years after Livy. Pliny Secundus wrote his Natural History from 61-113 A.D., and the earliest of seven known copies was written c.850 A.D. And our seven copies of the works of Plato, that famed philosopher whose Wikipedia page is nearly endless, were written over 1,300 years after Plato.

Now compare that to the New Testament. We have fragments of these books written just over 50 years after the recorded events happened. Not 500, just 50. We have full books from about 200 A.D. (100 years after the N.T. was finished) and most of the New Testament by 250. There are over 5600 Greek manuscripts from 325 A.D., only 225 years after the original. In other words, over 8 times the number of manuscripts of the Iliad in almost half the time. The Latin Vulgate translation was completed in 384 (284 years after) and we have +19,000 translated N.T.s from 400-500 A.D. When added up, there are more than 24,600 known manuscripts of the New Testament ranging from 50-400 years after it was completed. Remember, the earliest Iliad was written 400 years after the original, and we have 643 copies from then on. The Iliad is, to the extent of my limited knowledge on the subject, considered an authouritative history on the Trojan war. 643 copies of a book written at least four centuries after the original (and although I may have no idea what I'm talking about, I think that the original was written a very long time after the events took place), and it is considered a legitimate source of history. So why do people doubt the Bible as a historical document? Why? 24,600 copies written less, not more, less than 400 years after the original, and people suggest it is a matter of opinion? Statistically (that's the word that started this long-winded rant), the New Testament is more than 38 times as reliable as the Iliad, way more than 2,460 times as reliable as Julius Caesar's Gallic wars, once again way more than 3514 times the reliability Pliny's Natural History, and even more than that many times as reliable as Plato. As I said before, these resurrections are recorded in the book that is statistically the most reliable historic document in existence.:amen:
There are several fundamental flaws in your calculus.

First, a book arbitrarily collated from many texts becomes more reliable than the individual texts themselves - there are by necessity 'more manuscripts'.

Second, your measure of reliability seems to be a simple measure of manuscripts - the more there are, the more reliable it is, to the extent that you begin quoting 'factors' of reliability. This is not how historians ascertain a text's reliability. For example, consider three documents written by an unknown man in 1500BCE. One states: "Some humans are called Pharaohs", while the other two state "Unicorns physically appear before you if you clap your hands four times". According to you, the latter document is more reliable than the former, when it's obviously not.
In other words, the sheer number of times a statement is made is no indication of how true it is.

Third, you attempt to hoist the Bible's veracity by comparing it to 'known' texts like the works of Plato and the stories of Troy. Unfortunately, there is considerable doubt as to whether Troy even existed, let alone was involved in the archetypal war. The same is true for Plato: we only know of Socrates through the works of Plato, and there is doubt as to whether Plato himself even existed.
In other words, even if the Bible is more reliable than the works of Plato (which it's not), that doesn't mean very much at all.

There is also a flaw in your conclusion: Hindu and Buddhist texts, being of greater variety and literary richness than post-CE texts, are even more reliable than the Bible... according to your calculus. Thus, you should immediately convert to Hinduism :)

"Give thanks to the lord for he is good, his faithful love endures forever" Psalms 107:1:bow:
"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things" - Isaiah 45:7
 
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Nostromo

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Yes, Jesus could create His own parable -- (like when He cursed the fig tree) -- but He used events that He, Himself actually witnessed.
Was he hiding behind a rock when the man travelling to Jericho was robbed and left for dead, and waited for the Samaritan just so he could tell a story about it later?
 
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Cabal

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I'm probably oversimplifying the historicity argument here, but doesn't it imply that something like Star Wars (lots of copies made in a very short space of time after the original's inception) is factual history?

If so, I want my darn lightsabre.
 
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