My outrage

[Aimee30]

Ahh, a debate I don't want to get involved in, cool!
I guess my digress is only in the fact that I am supposed just sit back and accept that certain behavior is normal because a group tells me so. I am not an in your face person that tells people hey, you're wrong because.... I just advise them to read the Bible and what it says about being a Christian before actually claiming to be one or to claim to adhere to its policies. If they read it through and still are contentious to what others believe about the Bible and still believe they are right that makes it turned over to God's judgement. No longer do I have much to say about it. After all,l we are to live in love and I turn to 1 Corithians 13 for a definition of what love is or perhaps one of the gospels and see Jesus's mercy to all regardless of stature.
My viewpoint is rather, you can tell a person something you believe to be wrong, but you can't beat them over the head with a stick until they believe it.

 

[chalice_thunder]

Besides haven't you heard of "tough love"? Love isn't just about agreeing and being nice.

You are correct.

In Christ's love, I adjure you to quit judging others by a measure that God will not own!

 

[Chrysalis Kat]

Saying that speaking against Homosexuality is wrong is self-righteous. Because it comes from a human standard. The Bible condemns homosexuality and as Christians so should we.

Whoa!
Whether the bible condemns homosexuality or not or if it’s is a worse sin that any other kind of sin is a hot topic that gets discussed ad nauseaum in CF forums.
Regardless of your position on this, where do find support in any of Jesus’ teachings to go around condemning anyone for anything? You make it sound like this a sacred Christian duty to perform. Where does this come from? Where are you finding this biblical mandate in any of Jesus’ words ?

If God condemns something – fine, so beit – but let God do the condemning. That is not your mission nor mine.

 

[Shane Roach]

Whoa!
Whether the bible condemns homosexuality or not or if it’s is a worse sin that any other kind of sin is a hot topic that gets discussed ad nauseaum in CF forums.
Regardless of your position on this, where do find support in any of Jesus’ teachings to go around condemning anyone for anything? You make it sound like this a sacred Christian duty to perform. Where does this come from? Where are you finding this biblical mandate in any of Jesus’ words ?

If God condemns something – fine, so beit – but let God do the condemning. That is not your mission nor mine.

What a relief it would be to many a Christian if this were true at all.

2 Timothy 4:2 "Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine."

 

[Lokisdottir]

I love when teenagers act high and mighty.

At fifteen, you have a lot of learning to do. I see your state as common teenage rebellion. That's okay. God has plenty of time.

Say whatever else you want in this thread, but please, do not play the age card. There's nothing more frustrating than trying to make a cogent argument, only to have it brushed aside with "Oh, you're just a kid, you'll know better when you're older." It's rude and condescending.

 

[Matt Never Existed]

I love when teenagers act high and mighty.

I, son, am not the one who is blind. I once was, but now I see.

Don't refer to me as 'son' ever again. My father died of ALS 3 years ago, and you shall never be half the man he was.

Also, the whole 'you're just a kid, you'll learn' thing is a joke. I, a kid, have been through more **** in my life than some adults I know. Age does not equal wisdom. But hey, its not like you're going to listen anyways, right? You'd rather sit there with your eyes closed, covering your ears, trying to 'prove' a point, regardless of how many people you have to insult or offend, right? ~shrug~. I'm just calling it how I see it, sorry.

I'm rather glad I don't call myself a christian anymore. I'd hate to be in the same boat as you.

Anyways, This has been a fun flame-fest. I'd like to say I'm sorry to the OPer, and to everyone else who has read what went back and forth between BondSlave and myself. And no, I can't return the wasted time back to you.

 

[ChristianCenturion]

I am no common teenage rebell. This I gaurantee you. I'm not playing any persecution card... if that's what I implied, I apologize. I realize I'm a selfish, hypocritical buttwipe so don't shove it in my face, I get that enough from my parents, teachers and peers. I get it now, okay. I can't post in theist only areas, alright I'm sorry I made the mistake of not noticing that it WAS theist only! My mistake! And I don't want to bag on your faith, because I have no problems with your faith to a major extent. And if I did, I wouldn't post them anyway because I see that as common decency. I just have problems when others make comments without regard to how others might feel. Even the smallest little comment about the smallest little thing about someone can drive them to something drastic. And I'll point out again, I'm not a "common teenage rebel." I bet I fit the stereotype pretty well though, huh? Atheistic, completely non-religious, argumentative, a little creep... but no, there's nothing more I need to learn before my life ends. Hopefully, time will pass quickly until my fate catches up with me.

I would agree with you. You nor anyone else is 'common' anything. You like each individual was created uniquely and for a reason by God.
Placing blame on nobody, you nor anyone else should be made to feel that you are worthless. Despite any pain that may have been given here or by someone else earlier in your life, you are loved by God.

 

[Bond Slave]

Don't refer to me as 'son' ever again. My father died of ALS 3 years ago, and you shall never be half the man he was.

Good jab there, son.

 

[Lokisdottir]

Good jab there, son.

You really are just trying to offend, aren't you? You're just a troll trying to get people's hackles up.

You haven't shown even the slightest hint of Christian love and kindness. And you're obviously not trying to evangelize people, because everyone knows you don't win converts by being mean and nasty. So obviously, your goal is just to make people angry.

Folks, don't feed the troll. This guy isn't worth replying to.

 

[Chrysalis Kat]

What a relief it would be to many a Christian if this were true at all.

2 Timothy 4:2 "Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine."

Firstly, Jesus didn’t say this.

Secondly, I see nothing commanding Christians to go around condemning other people in this.

However, if I really wanted to believe this was true - for whatever purpose it might serve - if I squinted really really hard I could believe it were so.
I guess it’s official now. There is nothing that a person can’t find a biblical scripture that will support and justify their actions, regardless of how despicable those actions might be.

 

[crazyfingers]

Saying homosexuality is wrong can never be considered self-righteous because we are taking God's position not are own.

Correction, you are taking the position that you believe that your religion teaches. That belief is based on faith, (belief despite the lack of evidence).

There is no evidence that there is any god that has any opinion whatsoever regarding homosexuality. Your position is simply your opinion and does not rest on any evidence or demonstrated authority.

 

[ChristianCenturion]

Correction, you are taking the position that you believe that your religion teaches. That belief is based on faith, (belief despite the lack of evidence).

There is no evidence that there is any god that has any opinion whatsoever regarding homosexuality. Your position is simply your opinion and does not rest on any evidence or demonstrated authority.

Correction, you are taking a position that what you believe is what is true. That belief is based on faith, (belief despite the evidence).

There is no evidence that there is not a God and that He hasn't made known His judgments. Your position is simply opinion and does not rest on any evidence or demonstrated authority.

Thank you and have a nice day.

 

[crazyfingers]

Correction, you are taking a position that what you believe is what is true. That belief is based on faith, (belief despite the evidence).

There is no evidence that there is not a God and that He hasn't made known His judgments. Your position is simply opinion and does not rest on any evidence or demonstrated authority.

Thank you and have a nice day.

Please look into the definitions for Strong Atheist and Weak Atheist and then re-evaluate your comment. Note that I'm a weak atheist.

Please also investigate the concept of Burden of Proof and again re-evaluate your comments.

Thanks.

 

[ChristianCenturion]

Firstly, Jesus didn’t say this.

Firstly, Christianity doesn't equate ONLY acknowledging the red letters - that's why the Bible is the way it is.
Secondly, you may wish to reflect upon Jesus' very first words when He began preaching:
Matthew 4:17
From that time on Jesus began to preach, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near.”

And what exactly would someone repent from?

Secondly, I see nothing commanding Christians to go around condemning other people in this.

However, if I really wanted to believe this was true - for whatever purpose it might serve - if I squinted really really hard I could believe it were so.
I guess it’s official now. There is nothing that a person can’t find a biblical scripture that will support and justify their actions, regardless of how despicable those actions might be.

The use of the wide brush and stating that 'people' are going around condemning is only a useful tactic for non-believers to non-believers. Perhaps it would be the case if it were true for all and that there isn't a concerted effort by some to make claims that there is nothing wrong with certain actions, isn't a sin, that there is no accountability, or that people MUST support such behavior. To which, I see that those are not legitimate positions religious or secular.

I realize that it is frustrating when someone makes legitimate points without hostile or irrational backings, so do try to have a nice day regardless.

 

[ChristianCenturion]

Please look into the definitions for Strong Atheist and Weak Atheist and then re-evaluate your comment. Note that I'm a weak atheist.

Please also investigate the concept of Burden of Proof and again re-evaluate your comments.

Thanks.

I'm already familiar with that belief system. If you find that rewarding and Truth transcending various levels, so be it. I would be more honest with myself.

Yes indeed. You might wish to take note of my name for you will find me liking the rules of logic. By all means, being that you made the initial assertion to this discussion we are having, attempt to prove your negative.
Or perhaps you will logically admit that your assertion that there is no God was as I had reflected in your own words (paraphrased), illogical.

But for me in the mean time, I will reflect on more relevant thoughts...

Matthew 21:23-27
23Jesus entered the temple courts, and, while he was teaching, the chief priests and the elders of the people came to him. “By what authority are you doing these things?” they asked. “And who gave you this authority?”


24Jesus replied, “I will also ask you one question. If you answer me, I will tell you by what authority I am doing these things. 25John's baptism–where did it come from? Was it from heaven, or from men?”

They discussed it among themselves and said, “If we say, ‘From heaven,’ he will ask, ‘Then why didn't you believe him?’ 26But if we say, ‘From men’–we are afraid of the people, for they all hold that John was a prophet.”

27So they answered Jesus, “We don't know.” Then he said, “Neither will I tell you by what authority I am doing these things.

 

[crazyfingers]

I'm already familiar with that belief system. If you find that rewarding and Truth transcending various levels, so be it. I would be more honest with myself.

In what possible way am I being dishonest with myself when I expect that beliefs should be supported by evidence?

Yes indeed. You might wish to take note of my name for you will find me liking the rules of logic. By all means, being that you made the initial assertion to this discussion we are having, attempt to prove your negative.
Or perhaps you will logically admit that your assertion that there is no God was as I had reflected in your own words (paraphrased), illogical.

Please reread what I actually said. I said "There is no evidence that there is any god that has any opinion whatsoever regarding homosexuality." That is NOT a claim that no god exists.

It is a claim that to date, evidence to support the claim that there exists a god that cares about homosexuality does not exist. For that reason I lack belief in such a god. I do not claim that one does not exist. However I submit that given the total lack of evidence to support the claim that it does exist, it's illogical to believe in one.

But for me in the mean time, I will reflect on more relevant thoughts...

Matthew 21:23-27
23Jesus entered the temple courts, and, while he was teaching, the chief priests and the elders of the people came to him. “By what authority are you doing these things?” they asked. “And who gave you this authority?”


24Jesus replied, “I will also ask you one question. If you answer me, I will tell you by what authority I am doing these things. 25John's baptism–where did it come from? Was it from heaven, or from men?”

They discussed it among themselves and said, “If we say, ‘From heaven,’ he will ask, ‘Then why didn't you believe him?’ 26But if we say, ‘From men’–we are afraid of the people, for they all hold that John was a prophet.”

27So they answered Jesus, “We don't know.” Then he said, “Neither will I tell you by what authority I am doing these things.

And I'll be waiting for evidence that what is claimed above is true.

 

[Chrysalis Kat]

Firstly, Christianity doesn't equate ONLY acknowledging the red letters - that's why the Bible is the way it is.

Unfortuantly that is true for many, but not all, Christians.

Secondly, you may wish to reflect upon Jesus' very first words when He began preaching:
Matthew 4:17
From that time on Jesus began to preach, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near.”
And what exactly would someone repent from?

Repent = Commanding Christians to condemn people???

The use of the wide brush and stating that 'people' are going around condemning is only a useful tactic for non-believers to non-believers.

Er..not exactly.This claim was clearly stated by crusader for christ a few posts back. Read it and weep. No wide brush needed here at all.

Perhaps it would be the case if it were true for all and that there isn't a concerted effort by some to make claims that there is nothing wrong with certain actions, isn't a sin, that there is no accountability, or that people MUST support such behavior. To which, I see that those are not legitimate positions religious or secular.

I already wrote that the topic of homosexuality and it's relationship to sin, if any exists at all, is subject to interpertation but where people get off claiming that their constant condemation of the behavior of others is commanded by Christ is what I am questioning.

I realize that it is frustrating when someone makes legitimate points without hostile or irrational backings, so do try to have a nice day regardless.

Yes, I certainly see that.Obviously there is just something about being confronted with hypocrisy that makes people act hostile and irrational.

 

[ChristianCenturion]

In what possible way am I being dishonest with myself when I expect that beliefs should be supported by evidence?

That isn't what I said; but if you say that you see no evidence, then I suggest that you keep looking.

Please reread what I actually said. I said "There is no evidence that there is any god that has any opinion whatsoever regarding homosexuality." That is NOT a claim that no god exists.

I read your statement, I believe yours and my rephrased statement are synonomous. After all, you did not qualify your assertion with "I believe" or "I haven't found" - instead, you attempted to make a statement as if it were fact. I corrected that statement.

It is a claim that to date, evidence to support the claim that there exists a god that cares about homosexuality does not exist. For that reason I lack belief in such a god. I do not claim that one does not exist. However I submit that given the total lack of evidence to support the claim that it does exist, it's illogical to believe in one.

You seem to be somewhat dizzy trying to say evidence doesn't exist... which begs the question: what non-existant evidence are you trying to refute? Like I said, you should take care of placing opinion as if it were fact and reveling in the folly of trying to prove a negative. Just some friendly, logical, advice - you may take it or leave it.

And I'll be waiting for evidence that what is claimed above is true.

I would encourage you to do so.

 

[crazyfingers]

That isn't what I said; but if you say that you see no evidence, then I suggest that you keep looking.

I suggest that you look for evidence that there exist the Giant green blob creatures in the middle atmosphere of Jupiter who control all actions within the solar system.

I read your statement, I believe yours and my rephrased statement are synonomous.

You'd be wrong. I did not claim that no god exists but that is what you accuse me of claiming. I claimed that there is no evidence that a god exists. Would you like for me to qualify that? How about, "to date I have seen no evidence that would suggest that there is any evidence that a god exists".

You seem to be somewhat dizzy trying to say evidence doesn't exist... which begs the question: what non-existant evidence are you trying to refute?

I assure you that I'm not dizzy. I am not trying to refute any nonexistent evidence and I have no idea why you would ask me that.

I suggest that you provide evidence that a god exists before I view as even slightly credible any claim that one does exist.

 

[ChristianCenturion]

Unfortuantly that is true for many, but not all, Christians.

A true statement.

Repent = Commanding Christians to condemn people???

For one that speaks of 'interpretation', I would expect you to see the duplicity in your assertion here.

Er..not exactly.This claim was clearly stated by crusader for christ a few posts back. Read it and weep. No wide brush needed here at all.

I suppose that I should apologize, I must have missed that qualifying statement that your post only addressed Crusader.

I already wrote that the topic of homosexuality and it's relationship to sin, if any exists at all, is subject to interpertation but where people get off claiming that their constant condemation of the behavior of others is commanded by Christ is what I am questioning.

They are not to condemn and I submit that your assertion that that is what is transpiring would require more than simply "because I say it is". It also does not render the Christian helpless in speaking out against wickedness or pleading for repentance. And as I have stated before, one would not know what to repent from if it wasn't made known - exactly what some Christians are doing... repeating what has already been made known and already judged by God.

Yes, I certainly see that.Obviously there is just something about being confronted with hypocrisy that makes people act hostile and irrational.

I agree. I would also say that rebellion is also a common motivator.