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My only problem with hard determinism

elman

elman
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Perhaps you're just not cut out for it. That's fine, but please don't be so arrogant as to dismiss entire schools of thought without bothering to learn the first foreign thing about them.
OK I will admit there is a possibility I am incorrect. Do you admit the same thing?
P.S. your new point in the post was that a computer is programmed and humans and fish are not.
The difference between humans and a computer is not new to this discussion. I have been refering to it constantly.

"Programmed" implies a programmer. If "not programmed" is your criterion for freedom then fine - we're free, but still determined.
Tell me again your defintiion of determined because that statemnet does not make sense.

If determinism is not your default assumption then what is? Free will? So you assume free will until you find evidence to the contrary? I find that hard to believe - but that is what you would do if it were your default assumption.
Yes I would say my default position would be that it is really as it appears and we make decisions that originate with us.
Programmers do not "predecide" things in the vast majority of cases. They merely determine the parameters with which the machine makes the decision.
I suspect this is not entirely correct.

If I decide to only buy shoes that are under £35, then I could still find a pair I liked for more and buy those.
But a machine could not do that.

That's because deciding parameters is not the same as making a decision.
That is not entirely true. Deciding parameters is a part of making the decison.

I could program a computer to go out and buy shoes for me - I could give it all my preferences in colour and design, my size, my price range and so on. Yet I would not have decided which pair of shoes to buy, would I? The robot would make that decision, although it was absolutely constrained by my parameters. Likewise, no philosopher has any trouble in using the word choice when only one option is actually possible - that is a purely artificial problem.
Explain slowly so I will understand how only one option is a choice. Even the word option is not appropreate if there is only one path to take.
If you ever decided to do some reading on the subject, the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy is an excellent resource. It is reliable, written by world class philosophers and is generally presented extremely well - laid out in a sensible fashion and easy to understand.

You might want to think about questioning what you read more.

Thank you for the references.
 
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levi501

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Expect in every thread involving freewill or determinism ad nauseum spam of baseless assertions to the point of derailment.
People bite every time while the last thing this person is interested in is honest debate.
Don't get me wrong, their intentions aren't insidious. This person just can't help themself.
 
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elman

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OK, never mind then. You can't be bothered to learn and use precise language, I can't be bothered to debate it.

Perhaps you're just not cut out for it. That's fine, but please don't be so arrogant as to dismiss entire schools of thought without bothering to learn the first foreign thing about them.

P.S. your new point in the post was that a computer is programmed and humans and fish are not. "Programmed" implies a programmer. If "not programmed" is your criterion for freedom then fine - we're free, but still determined. If determinism is not your default assumption then what is? Free will? So you assume free will until you find evidence to the contrary? I find that hard to believe - but that is what you would do if it were your default assumption.
Programmers do not "predecide" things in the vast majority of cases. They merely determine the parameters with which the machine makes the decision. If I decide to only buy shoes that are under £35, then I could still find a pair I liked for more and buy those. That's because deciding parameters is not the same as making a decision. I could program a computer to go out and buy shoes for me - I could give it all my preferences in colour and design, my size, my price range and so on. Yet I would not have decided which pair of shoes to buy, would I? The robot would make that decision, although it was absolutely constrained by my parameters. Likewise, no philosopher has any trouble in using the word choice when only one option is actually possible - that is a purely artificial problem.

If you ever decided to do some reading on the subject, the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy is an excellent resource. It is reliable, written by world class philosophers and is generally presented extremely well - laid out in a sensible fashion and easy to understand. Here are the articles most relevant:If you want to carry on with this, read at least some of one or more of those articles. I'm quite happy to answer questions on the articles, but I am not willing to spend hours trying to reason with someone who doesn't appear to understand a word I'm saying.

"Determinism is deeply connected with our understanding of the physical sciences and their explanatory ambitions, on the one hand, and with our views about human free action on the other. In both of these general areas there is no agreement over whether determinism is true (or even whether it can be known true or false), and what the import for human agency would be in either case."

"The majority view, however, is that we can readily conceive willings that are not free. Indeed, much of the debate about free will centers around whether we human beings have it, yet virtually no one doubts that we will to do this and that. The main perceived threats to our freedom of will are various alleged determinisms: physical/causal; psychological; biological; theological. For each variety of determinism, there are philosophers who (i) deny its reality, either because of the existence of free will or on independent grounds; (ii) accept its reality but argue for its compatibility with free will; or (iii) accept its reality and deny its compatibility with free will. (See the entries on compatibilism; causal determinism; fatalism; arguments for incompatibilism; and divine foreknowedge and free will.) There are also a few who say the truth of any variety of determinism is irrelevant because free will is simply impossible." You appear to be one of the few.

This sounds familiar: "I grant, then, that an effect uncaused is a contradiction, and that an event uncaused is an absurdity. The question that remains is whether a volition, undetermined by motives, is an event uncaused. This I deny. The cause of the volition is the man that willed it. (Letter to James Gregory, in 1967, 88) "
 
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FishFace

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"Determinism is deeply connected with our understanding of the physical sciences and their explanatory ambitions, on the one hand, and with our views about human free action on the other. In both of these general areas there is no agreement over whether determinism is true (or even whether it can be known true or false), and what the import for human agency would be in either case."

"The majority view, however, is that we can readily conceive willings that are not free. Indeed, much of the debate about free will centers around whether we human beings have it, yet virtually no one doubts that we will to do this and that. The main perceived threats to our freedom of will are various alleged determinisms: physical/causal; psychological; biological; theological. For each variety of determinism, there are philosophers who (i) deny its reality, either because of the existence of free will or on independent grounds; (ii) accept its reality but argue for its compatibility with free will; or (iii) accept its reality and deny its compatibility with free will. (See the entries on compatibilism; causal determinism; fatalism; arguments for incompatibilism; and divine foreknowedge and free will.) There are also a few who say the truth of any variety of determinism is irrelevant because free will is simply impossible." You appear to be one of the few.

On the contrary - I believe that your conception of free will as something as something that is neither random nor causally determined is impossible. I agree with Hume's view that there is a more sensible and meaningful way of understanding free will, something along the lines of "The ability to act in accordance with your desires." (although I overheard the lecturer talking with another lecturer afterwards about another interesting theory) With this in mind, I slot slap-bang in the middle of (ii).

Determinism, in case one of those articles hasn't already divulged a definition (which I'm sure will be better than this) is the theory that all events are fully determined by prior causes. That means that at a given time, if you hypothetically had complete knowledge of the universe, you could, with sufficient reasoning ability, say exactly what will happen at subsequent points in time.

This sounds familiar: "I grant, then, that an effect uncaused is a contradiction, and that an event uncaused is an absurdity. The question that remains is whether a volition, undetermined by motives, is an event uncaused. This I deny. The cause of the volition is the man that willed it. (Letter to James Gregory, in 1967, 88) "

Sure does. And I disagree for reasons you know well already. Your quotes show that, as with many things in philosophy, there is a large amount of disagreement. If I may be blunt, the difference between you and those the article refers to is that they have studied the subject a lot more than you - or indeed I, and know the intricacies, terminology and so on. That is not to say that someone with more study under their belt is necessarily right, but if anyone - myself included - were to offhandedly dismiss any philosophical school of thought without anything more than an appeal to intuition, that person would hardly be convincing.

The fundamental struggle you appeared to be having with compatibilism is that your conception of free will is - fundamentally - incompatible. But it is not the only one, and there are several arguments for using a different one - compatibilism being one form of argument, others being from a moral standpoint, for example. If I dig out last term's philosophy notes, let's see... Hmm, still open at the page.
OK, there are two general accounts of free will. One is yours:
1. Given a complete account of the world, I still have more than one option available.
This is the Libertarian view of free will. The other is:
2. Had I wanted, I c/would have chosen differently.
This is a counterfactual account (If <one thing that is not true> were true then <another thing>) but the Libertarians say that being constrained by your desires (what you want) is not free.
There are a few details left about second order desires but we needn't go into those.

A bit more on stuff from your other post: One option being a choice.
The difficult here is that we don't really have a very good word for describing what I mean. I think perhaps 'option' is not a very good one. A choice, certainly implies that there is more than one thing to choose between. My contention is that one can still have a choice, even if the outcome is predetermined. This implies that choosing is about selecting, not about being free. There's really not any funny business here - it's just a certain conception of the word choice. In the everyday world when we say, "I chose cake," we are not really concerned with whether I was actually free in this or that sense of the word, rather with what I chose and why I chose it.
And as for questioning what one reads well, you may have misinterpreted my intention of giving you encyclopaedia references. The only thing one should take on trust in those articles is what they say people say. When I say the SEP is reliable, I mean that it doesn't say things like "Descartes was an empiricist" (he wasn't.) not that every argument it puts forward is right! The articles in there are written by lots of different philosophers, and they're not designed to convince you of this or that point of view, only to inform you of this or that argument for that point of view. And it isn't necessary to just take an argument on trust - the argument being there allows you to make a reasoned - argued - decision as to whether the view is correct.
 
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elman

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A bit more on stuff from your other post: One option being a choice.
The difficult here is that we don't really have a very good word for describing what I mean. I think perhaps 'option' is not a very good one. A choice, certainly implies that there is more than one thing to choose between. My contention is that one can still have a choice, even if the outcome is predetermined. This implies that choosing is about selecting, not about being free. There's really not any funny business here - it's just a certain conception of the word choice. In the everyday world when we say, "I chose cake," we are not really concerned with whether I was actually free in this or that sense of the word, rather with what I chose and why I chose it.

You are addressing my question, but not solving it. If you chose cake that means there was ice cream there and it could have been chosen. If you select cake that means you could have selected the ice cream. Selecting is about being free to chose other than what is chosen and if you are not free no selection was made. You simply complied with your programing. Chosen, options, and selections are incompatable with lack of free will.
 
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FishFace

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You are addressing my question, but not solving it. If you chose cake that means there was ice cream there and it could have been chosen. If you select cake that means you could have selected the ice cream. Selecting is about being free to chose other than what is chosen and if you are not free no selection was made. You simply complied with your programing. Chosen, options, and selections are incompatable with lack of free will.

They're incompatible with your conception of free will. But if choosing, deciding, selecting and so on all require free will, what does a computer do when it chooses what to do? There must be some word that is applicable.
 
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FishFace

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a computer doesn't have desires.

Depends on how you define desire. The simple one is an that X has a desire when it has an intentional state about P which does or would lead X to act in order to attain P.
There are some pretty obvious problems with this account - I want George Bush out of office but I'm not going to actually go and assassinate him. However, these issues are not irresolvable and the point is that you can give a full account of desire that doesn't exclude computers.
 
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elman

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They're incompatible with your conception of free will. But if choosing, deciding, selecting and so on all require free will, what does a computer do when it chooses what to do? There must be some word that is applicable.

A computer complies with its programing. It does not chose, or select options. The cause of its actions are not the computer but the programer. The cause of our actions are not our programer, but us.
 
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FishFace

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A computer complies with its programing. It does not chose, or select options. The cause of its actions are not the computer but the programer. The cause of our actions are not our programer, but us.

As you keep on saying, but you never told us what the cause of that cause is.

You also didn't give us any insight into what a computer does when it "complies with its programming." If I am a programmer writing a piece of software to, say, automatically calibrate a monitor, I would write an algorithm. The program would take all the inputs, give them to the algorithm and, I would say, select the best settings for the monitor according to whatever it is the algorithm gave as the result.
If the program doesn't select the settings, then what does it do? Or are you going to insist that there's no word for it? That doesn't actually get you anywhere.
 
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daniel777

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Depends on how you define desire. The simple one is an that X has a desire when it has an intentional state about P which does or would lead X to act in order to attain P.
There are some pretty obvious problems with this account - I want George Bush out of office but I'm not going to actually go and assassinate him. However, these issues are not irresolvable and the point is that you can give a full account of desire that doesn't exclude computers.

so are you suggesting a programmer with desires?

doesn't hard determinism imply a beginning for the universe? how can determinism be without a beginning? how can a beginning take place without free will (i would say free will from the beginning himself.)
 
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FishFace

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so are you suggesting a programmer with desires?

Well the programmer of course has desires...

doesn't hard determinism imply a beginning for the universe?

No - the best definition I've found is "given a complete account of the universe at time t, you can infer a complete account of the universe at subsequent times t+1, t+2..."
You can reverse this and say that a complete account of the universe at time t can be inferred from a complete account at t-1. Those -1s could go on forever.

how can a beginning take place without free will (i would say free will from the beginning himself.)

If there was a beginning then that surely means that something happened uncaused. In fact here you could just make a singular exception to hard determinism without significantly changing the argument.

The thing is, you again need a better definition of free will than any I've seen if you want to take this libertarian approach. If you accept that a decision is caused by a chain of events in the brain, and those events are caused by other events and so on, then at some point one of your causes must be a cause with the property of free will.
Now, my language here excludes you from being the cause, since you are not an event. Strictly speaking, causes are all events, I think. (That doesn't mean you can't say 'gravity caused the ball to drop' it just means it's not technically correct.) Anyhoo, this cause with free will, how can we classify it? Does it completely determine the events? Is it completely determined itself? If so, then it's not a libertarian's idea of free will. Is it somehow undetermined? If so, that means (surely) that some element of the "event with free will" is uncaused and that (surely) is random.

Elman says here simply that "I am the cause of my decision. It is not uncaused, it is not random." But that won't do because I'm asking for an event history - not the entity to which the events belonged.
 
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daniel777

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No - the best definition I've found is "given a complete account of the universe at time t, you can infer a complete account of the universe at subsequent times t+1, t+2..."
You can reverse this and say that a complete account of the universe at time t can be inferred from a complete account at t-1. Those -1s could go on forever.
If there was a beginning then that surely means that something happened uncaused. In fact here you could just make a singular exception to hard determinism without significantly changing the argument.

The thing is, you again need a better definition of free will than any I've seen if you want to take this libertarian approach. If you accept that a decision is caused by a chain of events in the brain, and those events are caused by other events and so on, then at some point one of your causes must be a cause with the property of free will.
Now, my language here excludes you from being the cause, since you are not an event. Strictly speaking, causes are all events, I think. (That doesn't mean you can't say 'gravity caused the ball to drop' it just means it's not technically correct.) Anyhoo, this cause with free will, how can we classify it? Does it completely determine the events? Is it completely determined itself? If so, then it's not a libertarian's idea of free will. Is it somehow undetermined? If so, that means (surely) that some element of the "event with free will" is uncaused and that (surely) is random.

Elman says here simply that "I am the cause of my decision. It is not uncaused, it is not random." But that won't do because I'm asking for an event history - not the entity to which the events belonged.
but even the system of t+1 t+2 t+3 (which i assume that you mean by this the universe.) ect...., even the system itslef has to have an origin. you would probably say that origin is found in another eternal system. and another. and another. and another. and another. ect. you can trace this rout down through multiple levels of infinity, following the same rules of cause and effect, trying to rationalize away a first cause OR you can concede to the inevitable, a constant, a programmer.

so far we've determined that without desire there cannot be a beginning. without a beginning the universe becomes a multilayered fabric of an infinity of infinite systems finding their origin in nothing.

the simplest answer: a programmer that desires, and one that didn't "happen" but remains constant (no cause, no effect/ no beginning no end/ in fact the programmer would be THE beginning and end) constant, unchanging, ect.

makes more sense than an infinite amount of infinity systems supported on other infinity systems.

as for determinism. it may or may not be true. why should we bother to question free-will. if there is such a thing as a programmer, it exists at least for him. if there isn't then it doesn't exist at all. i guess it's up to the desires of the programmer whether we have it or not.
 
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FishFace

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but even the system of t+1 t+2 t+3 (which i assume that you mean by this the universe.) ect...., even the system itslef has to have an origin. you would probably say that origin is found in another eternal system. and another. and another. and another. and another. ect. you can trace this rout down through multiple levels of infinity, following the same rules of cause and effect, trying to rationalize away a first cause OR you can concede to the inevitable, a constant, a programmer.

You've not demonstrated that that is inevitable at all. The set of states of the universe need not have a beginning or an end. What reason is there that, when you ask how I explain state t I can't just refer to t-1? And so on and so forth, ad infinitum?

so far we've determined that without desire there cannot be a beginning.

Who has? What? When?

without a beginning the universe becomes a multilayered fabric of an infinity of infinite systems finding their origin in nothing.

Pretty language... pretty empty, though. Without a beginning, the universe just... goes on forever. No need for layers or alephs or any of that.

The rest of that starts with those two assumptions.

as for determinism. it may or may not be true. why should we bother to question free-will. if there is such a thing as a programmer, it exists at least for him. if there isn't then it doesn't exist at all. i guess it's up to the desires of the programmer whether we have it or not.

Why should we question it? Because we never assume free will in everyday life when we are faced with a ball bouncing oddly. We don't assume it chose (in some vague, free-willish sense of the word) to bounce like that. Why should we assume that we chose (in the same sense) to do anything?
Because we have a subjective feeling of being able to choose amongst many options? Why does that imply that we actually can?
 
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daniel777

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um, i think we've drug this out farther than we can reasonably discuss it. hah. so stop this whenever you want, or change the subject. :) but if you want to continue, i will try. :)


You've not demonstrated that that is inevitable at all. The set of states of the universe need not have a beginning or an end. What reason is there that, when you ask how I explain state t I can't just refer to t-1? And so on and so forth, ad infinitum?

theoretically it could, but even the whole of the system of infinity would need a beginning. it would need something to contain it. cross stitched and woven together, if you say that the universe is infinite you also have to account for the existence of every single possible imaginable reality and form of existence and consequence logically possible.

if you say the universe is infinite, t1 is not enough. :

t1 t2 t3 t4


t11 t12 t13 ect...

t21 t22 t23 ect....

t111 t112ect...

i would say to you that without a first cause the universe must be much more than a single stream of infinite. it must have multiple layers. even the system of + to - infinity, taken as a single point in a supposed sea of nothing would still need a beginning.

Why should we question it? Because we never assume free will in everyday life when we are faced with a ball bouncing oddly. We don't assume it chose (in some vague, free-willish sense of the word) to bounce like that. Why should we assume that we chose (in the same sense) to do anything?
Because we have a subjective feeling of being able to choose amongst many options? Why does that imply that we actually can?
so free will is an illusion? then if the universe is infinite it must exist somewhere. the only reasonable place it can exist, if not with us, is with 'the programmer'.

also an eternal multi layered universe is necessary. if the universe is infinite, how can you deny the complexities?

Who has? What? When?
answered by yourself here:
Well the programmer of course has desires...
 
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elman

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Quote:
Originally Posted by elman
A computer complies with its programing. It does not chose, or select options. The cause of its actions are not the computer but the programer. The cause of our actions are not our programer, but us.

As you keep on saying, but you never told us what the cause of that cause is.
"The cause of our actions.... is.... us."

You also didn't give us any insight into what a computer does when it "complies with its programming." If I am a programmer writing a piece of software to, say, automatically calibrate a monitor, I would write an algorithm. The program would take all the inputs, give them to the algorithm and, I would say, select the best settings for the monitor according to whatever it is the algorithm gave as the result.
The selection is made according to original instructions, not decided by the computer separate from that.
If the program doesn't select the settings, then what does it do? Or are you going to insist that there's no word for it? That doesn't actually get you anywhere.
Yes like the computer making a selection, the progam is making the selection, but the real decision is made by the human who did the programing before the selection was to be made.
 
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FishFace

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theoretically it could, but even the whole of the system of infinity would need a beginning.

Infinity can have either a beginning or an end, but not both. We've got an end in the here-and-now - so it can't have had a beginning; that's a contradiction.

it would need something to contain it.

Why? The only reason I can think of saying this would be some general principle, but in that case you've immediately got yourself a whole infinitude of containers - because the general principle would apply to the container to.
Remember - infinity cannot have had a beginning.

if you say that the universe is infinite you also have to account for the existence of every single possible imaginable reality and form of existence and consequence logically possible.

"Account for" is not a precise enough term for me to know what you mean, here.

if you say the universe is infinite, t1 is not enough. :

t1 t2 t3 t4


t11 t12 t13 ect...

t21 t22 t23 ect....

t111 t112ect...

Let S[sub]t[/sub] represent the state of the universe at time t. If the universe is infinite, then all we need are an infinite number of states S, so all we need are an infinite number of ts. We can get that easily enough - just keep adding (or subtracting) one, and you will have an unbounded set of universal states - an infinite universe.

i would say to you that without a first cause the universe must be much more than a single stream of infinite. it must have multiple layers.

Why?

so free will is an illusion? then if the universe is infinite it must exist somewhere.

Sorry to sound like a broken record but - why?
 
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FishFace

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"The cause of our actions.... is.... us."

So you keep saying. But a cause is an element of a causal chain, is it not? So what is the cause of that cause? If you read carefully, I did not ask "what is the cause of our actions," I asked, "what is the cause of the cause of our actions." Different.

The selection is made according to original instructions, not decided by the computer separate from that.

I agree. The computer selects one of the options - based on its programming.

Yes like the computer making a selection, the progam is making the selection, but the real decision is made by the human who did the programing before the selection was to be made.

Suppose I program a robot to sort out balls of different weights into two buckets, and I instruct the robot, "all balls > 1kg put in this one, all others, in that one." Now suppose the first ball rolls towards it and it picks it up and puts it in the first bucket. I didn't decide that the ball would go in the first bucket, I decided the different decision, "all balls > 1kg will go in the first bucket." There may have been no balls > 1kg, but I still made the general decision.
You could even say that I caused the ball to go into its bucket. But not decided. How can I have decided that the ball would go into its bucket if, when I made the decision, it was still possible that the ball would never roll to the robot?
 
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daniel777

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if you say that the universe is infinite you also have to account for the existence of every single possible imaginable reality and form of existence and consequence logically possible
.
"Account for" is not a precise enough term for me to know what you mean, here.
you must concede to the existence of everything imaginable. if the universe is infinite so is the same 'chance' that supposedly created this world and so are the possibilities. infinity can exist in infinity. you still end at the programmer aka God.


enough t's lol....

if the constant system of infinity based in this cause and effect system was never caused, it would never have the power to render any effect.

also, inside infinity, multiple infinities can exist.. infinity plus infinity is infinity. every unidentified point and space between two points relating to space and time could then also be called infinity. this destroys the system of cause and effect. when an infinite amount of time to take place between two points in the system, the system of cause and effect is non existent.

i typed this and then it appeared on the screen. the system of cause and effect exists.
 
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elman

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Quote:
Originally Posted by elman
"The cause of our actions.... is.... us."

So you keep saying. But a cause is an element of a causal chain, is it not? So what is the cause of that cause? If you read carefully, I did not ask "what is the cause of our actions," I asked, "what is the cause of the cause of our actions." Different.
But the answer is still the same. The cause of the cause of our actions is us. We are the orignator, the original cause. There was no cause before we created the decision.

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The selection is made according to original instructions, not decided by the computer separate from that.

I agree. The computer selects one of the options - based on its programming.
Correct so the decision is the responsibility of the programmer, not the machine.


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Yes like the computer making a selection, the progam is making the selection, but the real decision is made by the human who did the programing before the selection was to be made.

Suppose I program a robot to sort out balls of different weights into two buckets, and I instruct the robot, "all balls > 1kg put in this one, all others, in that one." Now suppose the first ball rolls towards it and it picks it up and puts it in the first bucket. I didn't decide that the ball would go in the first bucket, I decided the different decision, "all balls > 1kg will go in the first bucket." There may have been no balls > 1kg, but I still made the general decision.
You could even say that I caused the ball to go into its bucket. But not decided. How can I have decided that the ball would go into its bucket if, when I made the decision, it was still possible that the ball would never roll to the robot?
The robot can make no decisions that you have not previously made for it. That is why it is called a robot.
 
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