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my next dumb question - 'word'

Discussion in 'Messianic Judaism' started by cyberlizard, Feb 11, 2008.

  1. cyberlizard

    cyberlizard the electric lizard returns

    +535
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    i know most of us have read john's gospel where it talks about jesus being the word....

    and i have heard the word 'mamre' or something similar, and discussion of 'targums' but please can someone shed some light on this passage for me from a judaic position.

    what is meant by 'word' (i already know it means logos, and am aware of 'logos' as a greek philosophical concept, but i am looking for a hebraic slant).

    hope someone can help me....


    Steve
     
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  2. A_Pioneer

    A_Pioneer Veteran

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    Ge. 1:3 and Ge 15:1
    <0559> and <01697>
    Try these on for size.
     
  3. debi b

    debi b Senior Veteran

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    That actually is a more interesting question than you know ;)

    For me when I begin to think about something I like to see how things have been used in scripture as a whole. I was reading in Proverbs the other day and a note from Soncino said something to the effect of -

    the text is written to inspire the reader to strive to see a deeper (dualistic if you will) meaning while not neglecting the simple truth of the text.

    For example if the text is talking about adultery there is a deeper implication one should strive for (and on this specific topic we see application of that all the time) while not neglecting the simple truth of the admonition to stay away from prostitues.

    So, to start you off here are a few examples to consider:

    It is valuable to re-read the entire account to understand what Samuel was really telling Saul here.

    There are some patterns emerging - can you see them?
     
  4. ozell

    ozell Well-Known Member

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    Hi Steve

    check this out

    Jesus said no one has seen the Father or heard his voice

    Jn 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

    we must ask ourselves who did Moses and the 70 elders see?

    we must ask ourselves who did the Israelites hear on the mount?

    Ex24v1-11

    1: And he said unto Moses, Come up unto the LORD, thou, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel; and worship ye afar off.
    2: And Moses alone shall come near the LORD: but they shall not come nigh; neither shall the people go up with him.
    3: And Moses came and told the people all the words of the LORD, and all the judgments: and all the people answered with one voice, and said, All the words which the LORD hath said will we do.
    4: And Moses wrote all the words of the LORD, and rose up early in the morning, and builded an altar under the hill, and twelve pillars, according to the twelve tribes of Israel.
    5: And he sent young men of the children of Israel, which offered burnt offerings, and sacrificed peace offerings of oxen unto the LORD.
    6: And Moses took half of the blood, and put it in basons; and half of the blood he sprinkled on the altar.
    7: And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD hath said will we do, and be obedient.
    8: And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD hath made with you concerning all these words.
    9: Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel:
    10: And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness.
    11: And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.

    Deut 4v1-13

    1: Now therefore hearken, O Israel, unto the statutes and unto the judgments, which I teach you, for to do them, that ye may live, and go in and possess the land which the LORD God of your fathers giveth you.
    2: Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.
    8: And what nation is there so great, that hath statutes and judgments so righteous as all this law, which I set before you this day?
    10: Specially the day that thou stoodest before the LORD thy God in Horeb, when the LORD said unto me, Gather me the people together, and I will make them hear my words, that they may learn to fear me all the days that they shall live upon the earth, and that they may teach their children.
    11: And ye came near and stood under the mountain; and the mountain burned with fire unto the midst of heaven, with darkness, clouds, and thick darkness.
    12: And the LORD spake unto you out of the midst of the fire: ye heard the voice of the words, but saw no similitude; only ye heard a voice.
    13: And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments;
    and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.

    according to Jesus they did not hear the Father's voice
    so it must be Jesus voice that Israel heard.

    it's Jesus words that man has heard and read.
     
  5. A_Pioneer

    A_Pioneer Veteran

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    This is where you err. Jesus did not pre-exist, Jesus was born some 2,000 or so years ago.
    The word pre-existed, the word became flesh and dwelt among us, so the word became the Messiah the only begotten son of God. The second Adam made in the image of the unseen God. This second man Adam is Yeshua Hamoshiach.


    Shalom
     
  6. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

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    Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
     
  7. A_Pioneer

    A_Pioneer Veteran

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    Just explained that! The word was before Abraham!
    The word (Aleph Tav) was the "Protoplasm of the universe." Rabbi Nosson Sherman. And God said and it was! The word created everything that was made.
     
  8. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

    +7,512
    Messianic
    I AM is the one who visited Moses too.
     
  9. GuardianShua

    GuardianShua Well-Known Member

    +266
    My 2 cents worth. Not only is Yahshua seen as God, but he also speaks for God. What ever he says is to be taken as God's word. And the Word was given for mankind that we may have life eternal.
     
  10. GuardianShua

    GuardianShua Well-Known Member

    +266
    John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I lived.
     
  11. A_Pioneer

    A_Pioneer Veteran

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    Luke 17:2 better a millstone---cause one of these little ones to sin.
    Close counts, only in Horseshoes.
    Shalom
     
  12. GuardianShua

    GuardianShua Well-Known Member

    +266
    Psalm 110.

    1 The LORD says to my Lord:
    "Sit at my right hand
    until I make your enemies
    a footstool for your feet."

    Psalm 40:6. Sacrifice and offering you did not desire,
    but a body you have prepared for me;
    burnt offerings and sin offerings
    you did not require.

    7 Then I said, "Here I am, I have come—
    it is written about me in the scroll.
     
  13. alilsa

    alilsa Regular Member

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    well what is a "rheama" word ? the pastor at church talks about receiving a rheama word. you are talking about logos word, what's the difference?
     
  14. A_Pioneer

    A_Pioneer Veteran

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    If the "Word' hasn't been revealed to you, then greater men than I have tried to explain it and apparentlly failed. So how can I hope to reveal it to you? Jn.1:1-5, Col. 1:15 and Jn. 5:24.
    Then the Jews, Jn. 8:57, You are not yet fifty years old,
    Were they incorrect? Did he say I am before creation?
    The Jews were right, the man Jesus was not yet fifty.
    Yet the Aleph Tav the Word of God was before time.
    I suppose Y H V H is incapable of sending the "Word" in the form of a man. Not at all! Remember Yeshua says man lives by every Word that proceeds from the mouth of God.

    I am finished with this thread.
    Shalom
     
  15. GuardianShua

    GuardianShua Well-Known Member

    +266
    A rheam is a single horn ram. See Book of Enoch. A unicorn is a single horn goat. See Holy bible. Both are parabolic in nature. The goat gets rheamed. Ha Ha ha
     
  16. GuardianShua

    GuardianShua Well-Known Member

    +266
    Huh :confused:
     
  17. ozell

    ozell Well-Known Member

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    to keep it simple and to the topic as possible.

    Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

    Gen 11v4: And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.
    5: And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded.
    6: And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.
    7: Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.

    as I stated in the earlier post,

    Jesus said there is a God that man has not seen and heard and we KNOW that there is a God that man has seen and heard.

    there was no New testament when Jesus made the comment.

    we know that from Genesis to Malachi man has seen and heard at least one God. This God who man has heard is the spokesman he is the Word.

    kEEP in mind what Solomon said


    Prov 30:4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?
     
  18. GuardianShua

    GuardianShua Well-Known Member

    +266
    I checked my N.I.V Exhaustive Concordance and the words "Let Us" is not in the Hebrew text. In other words they were added. They were probably added to support the trinity doctrine.
     
  19. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

    +7,512
    Messianic
    is "our" in the original hebrew?
     
  20. GuardianShua

    GuardianShua Well-Known Member

    +266
    Yes, and it can also be translated as "we". The words "Let Us" are unnecessarily for the translation.
     
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