Futurist Only My New End Times Chronology

Bible Highlighter said:

. Either way, whatever you want to call the taking up event described by Paul, it will signal in the end.

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Well, it will certainly signal the end of the church age; but immediately following the rapture, the Day of the Lord will begin. And very shortly after that, the 70th week of Daniel will begin. I will believe John's order of events above any writer on a forum.

Paul is clear: God is going to catch the Bride up before He begins wrath on earth.

Jamdoc said:

Okay it's good that you recognize that Jesus returns at the 6th seal before the trumpets (and another version of this is shown in Revelation 14:14-20, before the vials),

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Sorry, but Rev. 14 events (just after the midpoint of the week) will not fit with anything at the 6th seal. That is rearranging Revelation and will surely be proven wrong.

Jamdoc said:

Revelation 14 actually has a harvest where the first group of people harvested (by Jesus) is NOT thrown into the winepress of God's wrath (let that sink in)
So I'm assuming you can see the gathering taking place pre wrath...
why still cling to an unbiblical secret rapture? Even 1 Thessalonians 4 isn't secret, it's very loud, a shout, the voice of an archangel, and the trump of God.

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In Context, the Revelation 14 harvest of the righteous will be the beheaded that refuse to worship the Beast. (Notice they just begin showing up in heaven in chapter 15.) The other harvest of wrath will be, without any doubt, the destruction that will come at the 7th vial and then, Armageddon.

Jamdoc said:

So I'm assuming you can see the gathering taking place pre wrath...
why still cling to an unbiblical secret rapture? Even 1 Thessalonians 4 isn't secret, it's very loud, a shout, the voice of an archangel, and the trump of God.

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Anyone can build a strawman and then tear it down. Who has ever said the pretrib rapture would be "secret?" Paul wrote of it a very long time ago. The only secret part of that event will be that no one will know WHEN.

The truth of the rapture timing is clearly laid out in 1 Thes. 5: Paul's gathering will be just before wrath - or just before the Day of wrath. The big problem with prewrath theory: John shows the Day of the Lord starting pretrib. Prewrath ignores that. It seems prewrath has no idea where "the trib" is in Revelation. Some are adamant that "the trib" is in the seals, when in truth, the seals are church age.

Just for the record: God made this easy: the 70th week or "trib" is clearly marked with 7's: the week begins with the 7th seal and ends with the 7th vial, and the midpoint is marked by the 7th trumpet.

So the rapture is clearly before any part of the "trib." That is why so many people these days believe strongly in "pretrib." However, the rapture will also be prewrath, for Paul has shown us that His rapture / gathering will be the trigger for the Day of His Wrath.

iamlamad said:

Anyone can make up a "rule." For example, my axiom on Revelation is:

ANY theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology to fit...

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The rule about timelines has to do with the definition of a timeline.

For a timeline -- given the start point, and duration, then the end point is determined... by definition. (has nothing to do with first reading the book of Daniel. It is true even without reading the book of Daniel)

It is the nature of all timelines regardless if one is Christian or not, or NT only or OT only, or whatever.. is that knowing the start point and length of the timeline determines the endpoint. They are all contiguous -- by definition.

But if you have a certain religious conviction that this global definition needs to be suspended for a given POV on end time events in Daniel 9... that is a very very specific exemption and looks a lot like eisegesis at that point.

Of course everyone has free will and can do whatever they like - but I prefer something a bit less subjective because objective methods are much easier to share with others.

iamlamad said:

I think my rule is truth. I don't think yours is.

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As I said , you have free will and can do as you wish.

BobRyan said:

well in this case yes - but that is not why all timelines are contiguous.

they are contiguous by definition - that is the only way a timeline functions as a timeline.

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Ah! I get it. So the first 69 weeks are a timeline as shown in 9:25 & 26, and the 70th week timeline is shown in verse 27, after the 70 AD events.

Bible Highlighter said:

#1. One event is the actual call (taking up) to the wedding (Which is mentioned in Matthew).

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This is really not true. the taking up TO the marriage is found in 1 Thes. 4 and 1 Cor. 15. It is a different gathering that shown in Matthew 24.

First is the timing issue: Paul's rapture comes just before wrath, which wrath extends to the entire 70th week and the days of great tribulation, and after that to Armageddon. The gathering as shown in Matthew 24 comes AFTER the 70th week and days of tribulation.

Second, Paul's rapture gathers from earth, and under the earth, while the gathering in Matthew 24 gathers from heaven.

Bible Highlighter said:

#2. The other event is the call (taking up) from a RETURN from after the wedding takes place (Luke).
(Important Note): The verse in Luke actually uses the phrase, “return from the wedding.”

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Just WHEN in the Revelation narrative is "after the wedding? It is His coming as shown in Rev. 19. This would be the timing of the Gathering as shown in Matthew 24. Revelation is very clear that the marriage and supper will take place in heaven before Jesus descends to Armageddon.

There are only two "gathrings" mentioned in scripture: one is Paul's gathering pretrib, and the other is Matthew 24's gathering posttrib.

BobRyan said:

The 70 years of Dan 9:1-6 is a contiguous timeline.
The 70 weeks of years of Dan 9 .. is a contiguous timeline.
The 1260 years of Rev 11, and Rev 12 and Rev 13 is a contiguous timeline mentioned 4 times in Revelation.
The 1260 years of Dan 7 -- is a contiguous timeline
The 2300 years of Dan 8 -- is a contiguous timeline.

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You are already so far off, you are out of the ball part - forget left field.
Rev. 11 & 12 is 1260 days (not years) that corespond to the 42 months in 11 and 13. They are all speaking of the same period of time, which Daniel said twice as time, times and half of time.

Dan 7 only shows time, times and the dividing of time (3 1/2) years.

Bible Highlighter said:

End Times Commentary #7:

Why is there is a "Pre-Trib Rapture,"and a "Mid-Trib Gathering?"

Imminency Verses Defends A Pre-Tribulation Rapture:

"Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;" (Titus 2:13).

"Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh." (Matthew 25:13).

"Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not." (Luke 12:40).
​

The Pre-Trib Rapture is new mystery revealed by Paul:

"Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed," (1 Corinthians 15:51).​

Jesus says we can watch & pray so we can escape all these things (tribulation things) that He just mentioned beforehand in Luke 21:

"Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man." (Luke 21:36).
​

What things shall we escape if we watch and pray?

War:

"Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom"
(Luke 21:10).

Compare that with:
​

Revelation 6:4 that says,
"...and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another..."

Earthquakes:

"And great earthquakes..."
(Luke 21:11).

Compare that with:
​

Revelation 6:12 that says,
"...and, lo, there was a great earthquake;"

Revelation 8:5 says,
"And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake."

Famines:

"...and famines..." (Luke 21:11).

Compare that with:
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Revelation 6:5-6 that says,
"And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand. And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine."​

God's People are not Appointed Unto Wrath:
(This means that faithful believers will not go through God's Wrath;
So both Pre-Trib believers and Mid-Trib believers will be protected from God's Wrath that is to come upon this world).

"And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come." (1 Thessalonians 1:10).

"For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ," (1 Thessalonians 5:9).​

The Wrath begins with the beginning of the 1st Trumpet Judgment and ends in Revelation 15:1. Note: Ezekiel 13:11-13 alludes to God's wrath being tied with hailstones (Which is what we see as the start of God's wrath in the 70th week of Daniel). The day of God's wrath is a synonym for the Day of the Lord, which according to Joel 2:31, begins after the 6th seal. The unbelieving Gentiles crying that "the day of His wrath has come" (in Revelation 6) are referring to a future imminent event (i.e. the 1st trumpet judgment).

For the Elect's Sake The Great Tribulation Days Will Be Shortened:
(This fits the Mid Tribulation Saint being gathered up by angels before God pours out his wrath upon the world):

21 "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened." (Matthew 24:21-22).
​

In the Midpoint of the Tribulation (Luke 21:20-27), believers are told to look up, for their redemption draws near: (This fits the Mid Tribulation Saint being gathered by angels before God pour out his wrath upon the world):

"And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh." (Luke 21:28).​

One in a is taken, and other is left is mentioned as happening within the Middle of the Tribulation (Luke 17:31-33 cf. Matthew 24:15-18):

34 "I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left." (Luke 17:34-36).​

There are Two Calls:

The Pre-Trib Rapture Call:
(The Call to Marriage):

"And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut." (Matthew 25:10).​

The Mid-Trib Gathering Call:
(The Call To Invite More After the Wedding Ceremony Takes Place):

"And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately." (Luke 12:36).
​

Important Note:

In Revelation 19, the body of believers are already called as Christ's bride or wife. It is a continuation of the wedding. Revelation 19 says the wedding is come. The wedding has now come to the world with a metaphorical wedding supper representing a real literal battle upon the Earth (i.e. Christ's 2nd Coming).

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Gen 6 - God tells Noah that they would only have 120 years left before the flood.

Matthew 24 Jesus said that they were totally surprised even though the 120 year timeline elapsed and they could see that the ark was finished,, and they could see that the animals were all entering the Ark.

Being "surprised" in the Bible context like Matthew 24 and Gen 7 is not limited to "no signs and no indication given"

Matt 24 says "He gathers His elect" -- "immediately after the tribulation".

This is in direct answer to the question the disciples asked in vs 3 :
3 As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

So Jesus tells the Christians he is leaving on Earth - to look forward to the fact that "immediately after the tribulation of those days"... He will send forth His angels to gather His elect.

I don't think we can assume that this message was not meant for the Christians living at the time He is speaking of, because they are specifically asking about the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

Bible Highlighter said:

I have no idea what you believe in regards to Eschatology. I have no idea where everything fits on a timeline in your view.

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Ok -- I was just pointing out that in Matthew 24 Jesus is asked about this very thing.. and the answer He gives there is pretty useful in trying to understand the sequence for the end of time.

Bible Highlighter said:

So I do not know what you are disagreeing over and or how to properly answer you because I don't know where you are coming from.

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I am just trying to point out that in Matthew 24 Jesus mentions both the great tribulation and also the sending forth of His angels to gather His elect. He says it is "after the tribulation" in Matthew 24.

Given that His disciples ask him to explain specifically the signs of His coming and the end... it would be hard to argue that the big event that all Christians were told to look forward to -- is not mentioned in Matt 24.

So I take the POV that Jesus told them exactly what to look for and what the sequence would be.

Not everyone will agree with me on this and that is fine.

Bible Highlighter said:

#1. One event is the actual call (taking up) to the wedding (Which is mentioned in Matthew).
#2. The other event is the call (taking up) from a RETURN from after the wedding takes place (Luke).
(Important Note): The verse in Luke actually uses the phrase, “return from the wedding.”

See my post #22 here within this thread for why there are two events that are a “taking up.”
At the end of the post, I mention these two key verses that describes how there must be two events or calls (One in Matthew and one in Luke). Again, pay very close attention to the words “RETURN from the wedding” in the verse in Luke.

Side Note:

The concept of a secret rapture is only secret in the sense of it's arrival and not that it must be silent. We do not know if unbelievers will be able to hear the shout and the trumpet or not. Maybe they will, and maybe they won't. Either way, whatever you want to call the taking up event described by Paul, it will signal in the end.

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It's not good biblical practice to base a doctrine on a parable.
if I were to take something away from that description in Luke, it would be aimed at those who look at Jesus returning on a white horse for Armageddon, you know, your post tribbers. Because that's what happens in Revelation 19. The wedding supper of the lamb, and then Jesus coming down on His white horse with his bride following to see Him destroy the people that killed many in the bride.
OBVIOUSLY the rapture took place before that.
I see 2 places within revelation where the rapture takes place because I see 2 parallel narratives in Revelation. They are very clear to me. It seems that you do not see the break in narrative and see the second narrative.
The first narrative is Chapters 6-11. The 7th trumpet is the end, and it fast forwards to final judgement after the millennium.
You have the beginning of sorrows and great tribulations in the first five seals of chapter 6
The darkening of the sun and moon and coming of Jesus in the clouds (and rapture as described in 1 Thessalonians 4 and Matthew 24) starting in verse 12, and just as in Matthew 24, the tribes of the earth mourn, and they give a very clear demarcation of events Revelation 6:17 The wrath of God did not begin with the seals (after the 5th seal the souls ask why God hasn't started His wrath yet), it begins now.
Then you have the 144,000 sealed to protect them from the wrath, and a great multitude in heaven (those redeemed in the rapture that took place in chapter 6, they weren't there before, they are there now) in chapter 7
Then you have the 7 trumpets, the wrath of God in chapters 8, 9 and 11, which end in a great earthquake and Israel being saved. Understand that chapter 10, reveals to us that the 7th trumpet is the end, the mystery of God revealed, it is prefacing that God's wrath doesn't continue after the trumpets IE the vials are not after all the 7 trumpets have finished, the 7th trumpet is the end.
Then earth is delivered as the Kingdom of our Lord and His Christ (Millennial Kingdom) in chapter 11
Finally you have final judgement of all the dead in chapter 11

The second Narrative is chapters 12-20
First you have the great tribulations, back half of chapter 12 and chapter 13
Then you have the 144,000 sealed, followed by the Return of Christ in the clouds, the harvest (the rapture), and the beginning of the wrath of God in chapter 14
Chapter 15, like chapter 7, shows the result of the rapture, a ton of people praising God in heaven.
Chapter 16, is the wrath of God
Chapter 16 also has a great earthquake, just as in chapter 11
It also gives more details on the final destructions of the wicked vs the first narrative, such as Babylon being destroyed, the wedding supper of the lamb, and Armageddon. Followed by the millennial kingdom, and final destruction of the world in fire, followed by final judgement chapters 18-20

I see no place of a pretrib rapture in any of that. John being invited up in Revelation 4:1 is not the rapture, it's not a resurrection or return of the Lord in the clouds, context says that it is only John taken up in order to witness the visions.
Revelation 3:10, is not promise of a pre trib rapture, #1. keep does not necessarily mean keep away, it could be just preserving them through. #2. It's arrogant to believe that you're the church with the best possible outcome that Jesus would have nothing to rebuke you over and #3. Even if you did do nothing that'd be rebuked by Jesus, neither did the Church of Smyrna and they were martyred. Why do they get their heads cut off and you get whisked away without any suffering? Jesus only had words of encouragement for those of Smyrna.

Sorry that I post in this thread when it's flagged pre trib only which I didn't see in the first post, but you invited me to this thread in your other thread about past and present doctrines.

iamlamad said:

Sorry, but Rev. 14 events (just after the midpoint of the week) will not fit with anything at the 6th seal. That is rearranging Revelation and will surely be proven wrong.

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So you believe there will be 2 groups of 144,000 (Revelation 7:4-8, Revelation 14:1-5)?
You believe Jesus will come in the clouds and harvest the earth twice (Revelation 6:12-17, Revelation 14:14-20)?
You believe Jerusalem will have a great earthquake twice (Revelation 11:13, Revelation 16:18)?
You believe that the dead will be raised up, judged, and rewarded or condemned twice (Revelation 11:18, Revelation 20:11-15)?

You think that they're going to declare the Kingdoms of the Earth as the Kingdom of our Lord and His Christ and He shall reign for ever and ever... and then He's gonna give power back to Satan to delegate to the beast for 42 months?

If you read Revelation as being purely in chronological order, that's the nonsense that you arrive at.
2 Timothy 2:15

15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

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BobRyan said:

Ok -- I was just pointing out that in Matthew 24 Jesus is asked about this very thing.. and the answer He gives there is pretty useful in trying to understand the sequence for the end of time.



I am just trying to point out that in Matthew 24 Jesus mentions both the great tribulation and also the sending forth of His angels to gather His elect. He says it is "after the tribulation" in Matthew 24.

Given that His disciples ask him to explain specifically the signs of His coming and the end... it would be hard to argue that the big event that all Christians were told to look forward to -- is not mentioned in Matt 24.

So I take the POV that Jesus told them exactly what to look for and what the sequence would be.

Not everyone will agree with me on this and that is fine.

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The answer Jesus gave is basically Revelation 6, it's astonishing how Matthew 24 and Revelation 6 line up. Revelation 6 is basically the Olivet Discourse of John. (being that the gospel of John had no Olivet discourse)

Bible Highlighter said:

I provided the link of the post that has the verse mentioned in Luke.
But for your convenience, I will repeat the ending part of my post #22 to show you the verse in Luke.

There are Two Calls:

The Pre-Trib Rapture Call:
(The Call to Marriage):

"And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut." (Matthew 25:10).​

The Mid-Trib Gathering Call:
(The Call To Invite More After the Wedding Ceremony Takes Place):

"And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately." (Luke 12:36).
​

I hope this helps, and may God bless you.

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Where in Revelation do we find Jesus returning to the earth after the "wedding?" It can ONLY be his Rev. 19 coming to Armageddon, since He comes JUST after the marriage and supper.

Still don't have the ability to figure out that the books of Revelation are not written in order? What have you been doing? Have you tried teaming up with a more experienced person that might could help?