Pre-Trib Only My New End Times Chronology

[Timtofly]

Please show us a verse where the population will SEE Satan.

Revelation 13:4
4 They worshipped the dragon, because he had given his authority to the beast; and they worshipped the beast, saying,

How can they worship the dragon if they cannot see him?

 

[iamlamad]

Revelation 13:4
4 They worshipped the dragon, because he had given his authority to the beast; and they worshipped the beast, saying,

How can they worship the dragon if they cannot see him?

ha! People do it all the time, even these days. Ever see heathens bowing down to false gods?

 

[Timtofly]

ha! People do it all the time, even these days. Ever see heathens bowing down to false gods?

Those gods do not exist, that is why they make an idol to view. Satan does exist. Do you interpret that as, Mattel is going to ship all humans a Satan barbie?

 

[iamlamad]

Those gods do not exist, that is why they make an idol to view. Satan does exist. Do you interpret that as, Mattel is going to ship all humans a Satan barbie?

My point was, SATAN exists behind all false Gods. When people bow to Buddha, they are really bowing to Satan. They just don't know it.

 

[Davy]

Revelation 13:4
4 They worshipped the dragon, because he had given his authority to the beast; and they worshipped the beast, saying,

How can they worship the dragon if they cannot see him?

Yeah, that's a good question, but it's still not Biblical. Just who said Satan's likeness can't be 'seen' when he comes to this earth per Rev.12:7-9? Afterall, Revelation 12:9 tells us the title "dragon" is just another one of Satan's many names.

God in Ezekiel 28 said in the parable there, that He made him the full pattern of beauty. So Satan isn't some invisible vapor or just an evil presence with no form. He has the image of man just like all the angels do, which image originates from God's Own Image likeness.

It is very surprising that so many in the Church today hold to eastern religious superstitious ideas about the angels and the devil. They look like men like we do. They have the same image as men. We are even shown this in the Genesis 19 chapter about the two angels that were sent to Lot in Sodom and Gomorrah!

 

[iamlamad]

Yeah, that's a good question, but it's still not Biblical. Just who said Satan's likeness can't be 'seen' when he comes to this earth per Rev.12:7-9? Afterall, Revelation 12:9 tells us the title "dragon" is just another one of Satan's many names.

God in Ezekiel 28 said in the parable there, that He made him the full pattern of beauty. So Satan isn't some invisible vapor or just an evil presence with no form. He has the image of man just like all the angels do, which image originates from God's Own Image likeness.

It is very surprising that so many in the Church today hold to eastern religious superstitious ideas about the angels and the devil. They look like men like we do. They have the same image as men. We are even shown this in the Genesis 19 chapter about the two angels that were sent to Lot in Sodom and Gomorrah!

Satan is a spirit being. In general, we cannot see spirits while we are in our flesh body unless God opens our eyes to the realm of the Spirit. I was "in the spirit" once and saw demons.

Perhaps God can make an angel visible. Usually then are not seen, unless someone is entertaining one unaware.

 

[Timtofly]

Satan is a spirit being. In general, we cannot see spirits while we are in our flesh body unless God opens our eyes to the realm of the Spirit. I was "in the spirit" once and saw demons.

Perhaps God can make an angel visible. Usually then are not seen, unless someone is entertaining one unaware.

Angels are "in the spirit form" as physical stars. As seen on earth they are men, not bright lights. Yet some angels bound in a river cannot be seen at all. They are not spirits though. They are physical when we need to see them, but our mind and eyes change in ability, angels do not change type.

Being in spirit and seeing a demon means you are seeing another person's reprobate spirit. Were you a bright light, or as dark as the other demons? The only reason I do not use the term devil is more literary. Using the word "the" in front of devil is not efficient. Same with dragon and adversary. Using Satan is specific like a personal name instead of a descriptive noun. Not many beings go by Satan and it should not be confusing about who I am referring to.

This time when the Lamb appears, Satan is going to take the spotlight as much as he is allowed. He will be seen way before any human claiming to be Christ takes power. Satan has been hiding behind the scenes, and with the Lamb on earth, an antichrist is not going to be that effective. Having a false prophet will be Satan's way of throwing any attention away from the Lamb, even if just for a moment. Then when Satan steps out of the shadows it will be two authority figures against Jesus Christ.

 

[BobRyan]

End Times Commentary 3:

24 "Seventy weeks [70 weeks] are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks [7 weeks], and threescore and two weeks [62 weeks]: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26 And after threescore and two weeks [62 weeks] shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself [The Messiah is Jesus who is the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the entire world]: and the people of the prince [the people of the prince of the power of the air, i.e. the devil - see: Ephesians 2:2] that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary [i.e. the Romans destroyed the Jewish temple in 70AD]; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he [The "he" is the "prince" of the people mentioned in verse 26] shall confirm the covenant with many for one week [make a treaty with the Jews and others in the final 7 years]: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease [this prince will stop the Jewish sacrifices in the temple], and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."
(Daniel 9:24-27).

After 7 weeks (49 days /49 years) = Temple Rebuilt (verse 25).

+ (Plus)

After 62 weeks = (a) Christ dying for our sins (b) 70AD Temple destruction.
(Verse 26).

(Gap of time or Age of Grace: The War (verse 26), or Spiritual Time of Battle for the Cause of Christ in Spreading the Gospel)

+ (Plus)

The last 1 week (7 days/7 years) = Tribulation period (verse 27).

7 + 62 + 1 = 70 Weeks.
​

This passage sets the backdrop or framework for Daniels 70 Week Prophecy (verse 24).


Side Note 1:

If you were to carefully look at the text, it states that there are things that happen in the gap like a.... "war" until the end. Also, Christ dies, and the temple is destroyed also within the gap of time that is not accounted for within the 70 weeks, as well. The text is actually saying that things are happening within the gap of the 69th week, and the 70th week.

Side Note 2:

The texts in brackets in blue and red in the Daniel 9 passage is my personal commentary on the text.

Interesting - however the problem in that post is the rule that "ALL Bible timelines are contiguous". i.e. Knowing the start date... determines the end point. As with all timelines.

So in Dan 9:1-6 we see the 70 years of Jeremiah and knowing the start point - determines the end point.

 

[Douggg]

Revelation 13:4
4 They worshipped the dragon, because he had given his authority to the beast; and they worshipped the beast, saying,

How can they worship the dragon if they cannot see him?

A couple of things, Satan when is cast down to earth in Revelation 12, knowing he has but a little time left of a time/times/half time - will incarnate the statue image of the beast, making it appear to come to life and speak. That everyone will be require to worshipped.

That is how Satan will be worshiped.

When Jesus returns, the brightness of his coming will melt the statue image to ashes - exposing Satan for the whole world to see - there on the temple mount.

It is all part of Satan's demise of being a terror.

Ezekiel 28:16-19.

16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.


My illustration shows the statue image turned to ashes and Satan exposed there on the temple mount at Jesus's return.

 

[iamlamad]

End Times Commentary 1:

The 70th Week (or Last Week) of Daniel:

The 70th week of Daniel is the last seven years before Christ returns, and this world is purified by fire and Christ sets up the Millennial Kingdom. We are currently in the "Age of Grace" between week 69 and week 70.

Side Note 1:

The "Abomination of Desolations" spoken in Daniel 9:27 is something unholy that the Antichrist will do in the Jewish temple as a part of his seizing control of the temple and stopping the daily sacrifices. This then leads to the enforcement of the Mark of the beast where many believers will die.

Side Note 2:

The first half of the Tribulation is 3 and a half years, and the second half of the Tribulation is 3 and a half years. The section known as the "Day of the Lord" is merely enlarged to show the importance of the event.

Sorry, but the seals are not IN the 70th week. First seal is the church sent out with the gospel.`

 

[iamlamad]

End Times Commentary 4:

When Does the Day of the Lord or the Day of Wrath Begin?

We know that the Day of the Lord = the Day of Wrath.

• Zephaniah 1:14-15

"The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly. That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,"​

The Day of the Lord does not come at the sixth seal because we know that Joel talks about the sun, the blood moon are signs that come BEFORE the Day of the Lord.

• Joel 2:31

"The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come."
​

Why is this important? Because the sixth seal is marked by the sun going dark, and the moon turning to blood.

• Revelation 6:12

"And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;"​

Yet, the Day of the Lord is marked with signs BEFORE of the sun going dark, and the moon turning to blood.

• Joel 2:31

The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.​

Conclusion:

This means that those who cry out at the sixth seal that the "Great Day of His Wrath has come" are merely talking about it in a future sense (and how it is now about to arrive). So the Wrath begins at the breaking of the 1st Trumpet, when God pours out the major judgments that effect the world in a huge way.

Maybe it was after they saw the signs in the sun and moon that they were sure it was the start of the DAY, starting soon after the cosmic signs. In other words, it may take Jesus seconds to OPEN that seal, but it might be showing us a month of time for those events to take place. The DAY could start anytime after the signs up to and including the first trumpet. Good post anyway.

 

[iamlamad]

End Times Commentary #5:

Figuring out the Timing of the Gathering:
Comparing Revelation 19 and the Olivet Discourse:

I am led to believe that the Olivet Discourse verses on the Son of Man's coming and His gathering of His elect by angels is a Mid Tribulation event and it is not the Post-Trib call that we see in Revelation 19. Why? The details and the order of the events.

#1. Revelation 19 talks about how the bride has made herself ready up in heaven already (Revelation 19:7).
#2. Revelation 19 describes how the armies followed Jesus (Revelation 19:14).
#3. Revelation 19 describes how the angel calls the fowls in the heaven (eagles or believers) to the supper of the Lamb (the battle of Armageddon).
#4. Revelation 19 mentions nothing about a gathering up of the Elect.
#5. The Olivet Discourse verses appear to line up best with the Middle of the Tribulation with the following of the sixth seal in Revelation and not with Christ's 2nd coming.
#6. In the Olivet Discourse: The Elect are gathered up by angels AFTER the Son of Man is coming. Yet, in Revelation, the Elect are in Heaven and they made themselves ready there and FOLLOWED Jesus into the battle down to Earth.
#7. So if there was some kind of gathering up of the Elect by angels in Revelation 19, it would have had to been BEFORE. Yet, in the Olivet Discourse, the gathering of the Elect happens AFTER.

Conclusion:

They are not the same event.

Why it is confusing is that folks automatically assume that because Jesus is coming, that He must be coming to destroy the wicked. But this time, Christ's coming is for the rest of His elect. Like in the Rapture, he descends from Heaven to meet His bride in the air. The only difference here is that the wicked will see Him coming this time. But He is not coming for them just yet, but He is coming for His Elect via by the gathering of His angels.

I disagree: of course they are the same event because they both come after the days of great tribulation.

#1. Revelation 19 talks about how the bride has made herself ready up in heaven already (Revelation 19:7).
The bride was taken to heaven at the 6th seal start of Wrath. Notice that the huge crowd too large to number is already in heaven by the 7th seal start of the 70th week. If you mention the bride, then you are also comparing 1 Thes. 4 with the end of the week. That is a mistake, since they are raptured just before wrath. Then there is another group on heaven by chapter 19: that is the OT saints. They were caught up at the 7th vial. John as not shown it, so did not tell us. They are caught up at the same time as the Two Witnesses who are also OT saints. Also as part of that crowd already in heaven will be those beheaded during the week. (The week will end at the 7th vial.)

#2. Revelation 19 describes how the armies followed Jesus (Revelation 19:14).
I think the church will be one of those armies.

#3. Revelation 19 describes how the angel calls the fowls in the heaven (eagles or believers) to the supper of the Lamb (the battle of Armageddon).
This is total confusion. The feeding of the birds is NOT the marriage supper of the lamb and the Bride will not be eating dead people and animals. The marriage and supper take place in heaven BEFORE Jesus descends. Any other theory is changing Revelation. The bride of Christ is not "fowls." That is a silly idea.

#4. Revelation 19 mentions nothing about a gathering up of the Elect.
It does not mention the signs in the sun and moon either - yet they surely happen as per Matthew 24.

#5. The Olivet Discourse verses appear to line up best with the Middle of the Tribulation with the following of the sixth seal in Revelation and not with Christ's 2nd coming. The middle of the 70th week or "trib" is marked by the 7th trumpet. There is no gathering there either. The Olivet coming is indeed the Rev. 19 coming - which will truly be His THIRD coming. His second coming will be His 1 Thes. 4 coming just before Wrath.

#6. In the Olivet Discourse: The Elect are gathered up by angels AFTER the Son of Man is coming. Yet, in Revelation, the Elect are in Heaven and they made themselves ready there and FOLLOWED Jesus into the battle down to Earth. It is a DIFFERENT "elect." The elect gathered in Matthew 24 may well be God gathering all of "Jacob" back to Israel from both heaven and earth.

#7. So if there was some kind of gathering up of the Elect by angels in Revelation 19, it would have had to been BEFORE. Yet, in the Olivet Discourse, the gathering of the Elect happens AFTER.
There will be a gathering as per Jesus in Matthew 24. John did not see it so did not write it.

Note: the only place to find the timing of the rapture is in Paul's writing because He alone received the revelation of the rapture.

They ARE the same event.

 

[iamlamad]

Interesting - however the problem in that post is the rule that "ALL Bible timelines are contiguous". i.e. Knowing the start date... determines the end point. As with all timelines.

So in Dan 9:1-6 we see the 70 years of Jeremiah and knowing the start point - determines the end point.

Maybe some timelines are "contiguous," but the 70 weeks are not. Sorry, whoever created that "rule" was mistaken.

Then in Revelation there are FIVE timelines which are countdowns from the midpoint to the end; they are all PARALLEL, not contiguous.

 

[BobRyan]

Maybe some timelines are "contiguous," but the 70 weeks are not. .

That's called "no Bible precedent for making such a radical insert".

Aside from the eisegetical interest in just inserting a preference here or there - which everyone is free to do if they wish... the actual rule of scripture is that "all timelines are contiguous"... so then knowing the start point... also tells you the end point.

Take a measuring line and determine that something is 70 yards long. When you get to the 69th yard -- drive your car 1200 miles away... get out and then say "and here we have 70 -- yep that's 70 yards".

That does not work in real life... it also does not work in the Bible either.

So then the 70 years of Jeremiah in Dan 9:1-6 were coming to an end - and Daniel knew it since "All timelines are contiguous"

 

[BobRyan]

Then in Revelation there are FIVE timelines which are countdowns from the midpoint to the end; they are all PARALLEL, not contiguous.

The 70 years of Dan 9:1-6 is a contiguous timeline.
The 70 weeks of years of Dan 9 .. is a contiguous timeline.
The 1260 years of Rev 11, and Rev 12 and Rev 13 is a contiguous timeline mentioned 4 times in Revelation.
The 1260 years of Dan 7 -- is a contiguous timeline
The 2300 years of Dan 8 -- is a contiguous timeline.

 

[friend of]

The 70 years of Dan 9:1-6 is a contiguous timeline.
The 70 weeks of years of Dan 9 .. is a contiguous timeline.
The 1260 years of Rev 11, and Rev 12 and Rev 13 is a contiguous timeline mentioned 4 times in Revelation.
The 1260 years of Dan 7 -- is a contiguous timeline
The 2300 years of Dan 8 -- is a contiguous timeline.

So are you saying all of those things have come to pass?

 

[BobRyan]

So are you saying all of those things have come to pass?

well in this case yes - but that is not why all timelines are contiguous.

they are contiguous by definition - that is the only way a timeline functions as a timeline. Knowing the start point.. .determines the end point.

 

[Jamdoc]

End Times Commentary #5:

Figuring out the Timing of the Gathering:
Comparing Revelation 19 and the Olivet Discourse:

I am led to believe that the Olivet Discourse verses on the Son of Man's coming and His gathering of His elect by angels is a Mid Tribulation event and it is not the Post-Trib call that we see in Revelation 19. Why? The details and the order of the events.

#1. Revelation 19 talks about how the bride has made herself ready up in heaven already (Revelation 19:7).
#2. Revelation 19 describes how the armies followed Jesus (Revelation 19:14).
#3. Revelation 19 describes how the angel calls the fowls in the heaven (eagles or believers) to the supper of the Lamb (the battle of Armageddon).
#4. Revelation 19 mentions nothing about a gathering up of the Elect.
#5. The Olivet Discourse verses appear to line up best with the Middle of the Tribulation with the following of the sixth seal in Revelation and not with Christ's 2nd coming.
#6. In the Olivet Discourse: The Elect are gathered up by angels AFTER the Son of Man is coming. Yet, in Revelation, the Elect are in Heaven and they made themselves ready there and FOLLOWED Jesus into the battle down to Earth.
#7. So if there was some kind of gathering up of the Elect by angels in Revelation 19, it would have had to been BEFORE. Yet, in the Olivet Discourse, the gathering of the Elect happens AFTER.

Conclusion:

They are not the same event.

Why it is confusing is that folks automatically assume that because Jesus is coming, that He must be coming to destroy the wicked. But this time, Christ's coming is for the rest of His elect. Like in the Rapture, he descends from Heaven to meet His bride in the air. The only difference here is that the wicked will see Him coming this time. But He is not coming for them just yet, but He is coming for His Elect via by the gathering of His angels.

Okay it's good that you recognize that Jesus returns at the 6th seal before the trumpets (and another version of this is shown in Revelation 14:14-20, before the vials), but yet, instead of being pre wrath you're pre trib?
Despite Paul connecting the rapture to the coming of Jesus in the clouds in THE Rapture passage in 1 Thessalonians 4?
Paul equated the 2 events as happening together (but clearly not the same event as Revelation 19)
Jesus had them happening together in the Olivet Discourse
Revelation 14 actually has a harvest where the first group of people harvested (by Jesus) is NOT thrown into the winepress of God's wrath (let that sink in)
So I'm assuming you can see the gathering taking place pre wrath...
why still cling to an unbiblical secret rapture? Even 1 Thessalonians 4 isn't secret, it's very loud, a shout, the voice of an archangel, and the trump of God.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Okay it's good that you recognize that Jesus returns at the 6th seal before the trumpets (and another version of this is shown in Revelation 14:14-20, before the vials), but yet, instead of being pre wrath you're pre trib?
Despite Paul connecting the rapture to the coming of Jesus in the clouds in THE Rapture passage in 1 Thessalonians 4?
Paul equated the 2 events as happening together (but clearly not the same event as Revelation 19)
Jesus had them happening together in the Olivet Discourse
Revelation 14 actually has a harvest where the first group of people harvested (by Jesus) is NOT thrown into the winepress of God's wrath (let that sink in)
So I'm assuming you can see the gathering taking place pre wrath...
why still cling to an unbiblical secret rapture? Even 1 Thessalonians 4 isn't secret, it's very loud, a shout, the voice of an archangel, and the trump of God.

#1. One event is the actual call (taking up) to the wedding (Which is mentioned in Matthew).
#2. The other event is the call (taking up) from a RETURN from after the wedding takes place (Luke).
(Important Note): The verse in Luke actually uses the phrase, “return from the wedding.”

See my post #22 here within this thread for why there are two events that are a “taking up.”
At the end of the post, I mention these two key verses that describes how there must be two events or calls (One in Matthew and one in Luke). Again, pay very close attention to the words “RETURN from the wedding” in the verse in Luke.

Side Note:

The concept of a secret rapture is only secret in the sense of it's arrival and not that it must be silent. We do not know if unbelievers will be able to hear the shout and the trumpet or not. Maybe they will, and maybe they won't. Either way, whatever you want to call the taking up event described by Paul, it will signal in the end.

 

[iamlamad]

That's called "no Bible precedent for making such a radical insert".

Aside from the eisegetical interest in just inserting a preference here or there - which everyone is free to do if they wish... the actual rule of scripture is that "all timelines are contiguous"... so then knowing the start point... also tells you the end point.

Take a measuring line and determine that something is 70 yards long. When you get to the 69th yard -- drive your car 1200 miles away... get out and then say "and here we have 70 -- yep that's 70 yards".

That does not work in real life... it also does not work in the Bible either.

So then the 70 years of Jeremiah in Dan 9:1-6 were coming to an end - and Daniel knew it since "All timelines are contiguous"

Anyone can make up a "rule." For example, my axiom on Revelation is:

ANY theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology to fit, is immediately suspect, and WILL BE proven wrong.

I think my rule is truth. I don't think yours is.

It is absolute fact that cannot be denied: the order in which Daniel wrote puts the 70 AD happenings BETWEEN the 69 weeks and the 70th week, proving the gap theory. Therefore, "all timelines are NOT contiguous."