My Marble Challenge

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Hans Blaster

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If a marble is created ex nihilo, raising the amount of mass/energy in the universe accordingly, is it wrong to deny it on the basis of not having evidence of same?

Who claims marble is created "ex nihlio", you? Not any one I know of.

[Cue obscure bible verse...]
 
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Pavel Mosko

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From a standpoint of Evidentialism, I don't think the challenge makes sense.

I think I get why you made it, its a bit of a logic trap of reversibility if the answer is yes, but its one of those things where its hard to funnel everything down to a yes/no syllogism when people are using other kinds of heuristics for their decision making.
 
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SkyWriting

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If a marble is created ex nihilo, raising the amount of mass/energy in the universe accordingly, is it wrong to deny it on the basis of not having evidence of same?

Scientifically marbles do not pop in and out of existence. They SHOULD because quantum physics should apply to large objects as well, but they don't, for some reason.

If you can't repeat an event, then science is useless to examine it.
And even then, science is HOPING that they are recreating an event accurately.
 
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Tone

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If a marble is created ex nihilo, raising the amount of mass/energy in the universe accordingly, is it wrong to deny it on the basis of not having evidence of same?

Wouldn't the rise of mass/energy be evidence?
 
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AV1611VET

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From a standpoint of Evidentialism, I don't think the challenge makes sense.

I think I get why you made it, its a bit of a logic trap of reversibility if the answer is yes, but its one of those things where its hard to funnel everything down to a yes/no syllogism when people are using other kinds of heuristics for their decision making.
Scientifically marbles do not pop in and out of existence. They SHOULD because quantum physics should apply to large objects as well, but they don't, for some reason.

If you can't repeat an event, then science is useless to examine it.
And even then, science is HOPING that they are recreating an event accurately.
I think it's pretty obvious what the answer is.

But others have different ways of looking at the same thing (the marble) and drawing different conclusions.

IOW, they reason themselves out of the right answer.
 
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SkyWriting

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If a marble is created ex nihilo, raising the amount of mass/energy in the universe accordingly, is it wrong to deny it on the basis of not having evidence of same?

My marble challenge was "Build a mile long runway for planes. Make it flat and level.
Now roll your marble at each end to check if it's level.
It it's level on each end and the middle, then the earth is proven to be flat.
You can't count on all people to be more accurate than that.
That was a lot of work already.
 
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Pavel Mosko

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I think it's pretty obvious what the answer is.

But others have different ways of looking at the same thing (the marble) and drawing different conclusions.

IOW, they reason themselves out of the right answer.


Well if I understand your OP question right.... You have what I call the "Dark Star" Problem of Solipism. (People obviously trust their senses to verify existence etc.)




 
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SkyWriting

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Wouldn't the rise of mass/energy be evidence?

That's right. If you can shake the cosmos like a Christmas morning gift from Santa, you should be able to sense the increase in mass of the total with the added marble. Also the added mass should slow the spin of the planet if you just want to measure local effects. More locally, the continent should sink a bit.
 
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Hans Blaster

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Scientifically marbles do not pop in and out of existence. They SHOULD because quantum physics should apply to large objects as well, but they don't, for some reason.

If you can't repeat an event, then science is useless to examine it.
And even then, science is HOPING that they are recreating an event accurately.

Probably because their is no quantized "marble field" pervading the universe. Marbles are composite objects made of composite objects (molecules) made of composite objects (atoms) made of fundamental particles (electrons) and composite particles (nucleons) made of fundamental particles (quarks and gluons).
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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Scientifically marbles do not pop in and out of existence. They SHOULD because quantum physics should apply to large objects as well, but they don't, for some reason.
Quantum physics does apply to large objects, but its effects are scale-dependent.

Also, things (i.e. particles) don't really pop in and out of existence, that's just a way of describing some abstruse field mathematics in familiar language.
 
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sjastro

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Scientifically marbles do not pop in and out of existence. They SHOULD because quantum physics should apply to large objects as well, but they don't, for some reason.

If you can't repeat an event, then science is useless to examine it.
And even then, science is HOPING that they are recreating an event accurately.
Here is another response to your quote.

Marbles don't pop in or out of existence because the energy (or mass) of the marble is not obtained from the vacuum energy which is the lowest energy level in a field.
The energy-time relationship of the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle states ΔEΔt ≥ h/4.
Since marbles hang around for a long time Δt is very very big which means ΔE is very very small.
This would mean marbles for all intents and purposes would have to have masses of the same magnitude as particles such as protons and neutrons which of course is nonsense.

Since protons and neutrons have been mentioned a free neutron (n) decays to a proton (p) according to the reaction.
n → p + e⁻ + ῡₑ where e⁻ and ῡₑ are the electron and antineutrino respectively.
This is a straightforward reaction where energy is conserved.

When we look at the reaction at a more fundamental level using a Feynman diagram things look decidedly weird.

beta.png


In the diagram the W⁻ boson which is the carrier for the weak force pops into and out of existence when a neutron decays into a proton and hangs around with a half life of Δt ≈ 3 x 10⁻²⁵ s.
Since its half life is so short its mass is around 80X greater than the neutron which has been confirmed by experiment.
So where did the mass of the W⁻ boson come from; certainly not from the neutron but from the (Higgs) vacuum energy of the field.
 
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jacks

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I said yes. I may not be understanding the question completely, but it reminded me of something my dad used to tell me. He said if you spit into the ocean you are raising the sea level. Now the rise is too small to measure, but it still exists. So even though something can't be measured doesn't mean it isn't happening. I apologize in advance, if this has nothing to do with the question and I just sound like an idiot. :confused:
 
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AV1611VET

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I said yes. I may not be understanding the question completely, but it reminded me of something my dad used to tell me. He said if you spit into the ocean you are raising the sea level. Now the rise is too small to measure, but it still exists. So even though something can't be measured doesn't mean it isn't happening. I apologize in advance, if this has nothing to do with the question and I just sound like an idiot. :confused:
Nay, my friend! Your dad was right on the money!

Good post! :oldthumbsup:
 
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VirOptimus

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If a marble is created ex nihilo, raising the amount of mass/energy in the universe accordingly, is it wrong to deny it on the basis of not having evidence of same?

You can use magic in any scenario you want to create and explain whatever you want, doesnt make it rational or real so the "challenge" is, as usual, a fail.
 
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AV1611VET

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You can use magic in any scenario you want to create and explain whatever you want, doesnt make it rational or real so the "challenge" is, as usual, a fail.
Let's test your theory, shall we?

If a [whatever I want] is created ex nihilo, raising the amount of mass/energy in the universe accordingly, is it wrong to deny it on the basis of not having evidence of same?

Nope -- doesn't make my challenge a failure.
 
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